Women defiling men

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Mallz
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Women defiling men

Post by Mallz »

Rev: 14:1-5 NIV
"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

So, about that... Women are defiling to men?

Argument: It's talking about the men who were not fornicators, adulteress, etc.
Argument against: 1) Perhaps if it didn't say 'for they remained virgins' you could argue that... but now I can't, because, marriage.
2) The sentence appears to be very clear and straight forward to interpret. Yes, the following sentences go into further detail about their purity, but if you used its context, then in reverse, wouldn't that mean that men who do not remain virgins have cause to be blamed as they defile themselves? By not being virgins...

Argument: Thinking about cultural context. Women of the era were uneducated and domestic with not even a spark of thought that they should be educated and building up societies alongside men as partners. (hence the reason why they weren't allowed to speak, ergo, direct a conversation in church. They have no grounds because the foundation was never given to them to comprehend and perceive. Even if the interest was there, the knowledge [and inability to read] was not accessible to them)
So... How could a woman progress in such a society? Jezebel vs. submission? Submission without comprehension. I would think that would give more opportunity and a more natural feel to rebel against submission more-so than if the ability to be educated were available.
Back to Jezebel. The only way to 'make a living' would be prostitution if unsupported. The only way to control would be through emotions and physical appeal.
If any of this thought process holds weight, would that mean women in general (or men if uneducated and domesticated) in those times were more prone to sinful nature?
I don't see any of this holding weight.

I'm out of arguments. Someone figure it out :ebiggrin:
PaulSacramento
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Re: Women defiling men

Post by PaulSacramento »

The whole "holy warrior" thing is very typical of Jewish apocalyptic writing.
That's all.
Same thing with the sealing and numbers and so forth.
Funny thing is that MOST cultures viewed it that way, to be a holy warrior one must have been a virgin OR abstained from sex for a determined amount of time.
heck, remember the old boxing adage, "Women weaken legs"?
Mallz
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Re: Women defiling men

Post by Mallz »

Hmm so your saying theres no connection between being virgin and defiling yourself?

Because of the further explanation in the paragraph of those men, I could see a 'holy warrior' explanation. But I'm still having a problem because of semantics and syntax. As in the need to further explain what defling themselves meant, 'for they remained virgins'.

However, I do know Revelations is not a literal book. So the problem could very well be how I'm reading it.

Do you have a reference I could check out regarding Revelations interpretation?
PaulSacramento
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Re: Women defiling men

Post by PaulSacramento »

Mallz wrote:Hmm so your saying theres no connection between being virgin and defiling yourself?

Because of the further explanation in the paragraph of those men, I could see a 'holy warrior' explanation. But I'm still having a problem because of semantics and syntax. As in the need to further explain what defling themselves meant, 'for they remained virgins'.

However, I do know Revelations is not a literal book. So the problem could very well be how I'm reading it.

Do you have a reference I could check out regarding Revelations interpretation?
I think that you can find many commentaries on Revelation.
I very good ( and massive one) that covers a wide range of views is the one by Davie Aune, the Word Biblical Commentary.
3 volumes.
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