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Part One of Two of a long post:
DowTingTom wrote:That's a long post, and I've failed in my attempt to reply to all of it without making my post pages long.
So here's my reply to the first bit, on which the rest of your post 'hangs'
What Principle does Galatians 6:7 set forth about God?
(Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.)
The passage appears to say that God is not mocked. This is also true of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
It appears that you cannot read or grasp the written language very well.
Job 34:10, 11, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way." NASB
Jeremiah 32:19-20 "...great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds; 17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right. 18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." NASB
Mat 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." NASB
DowTingTom, Sounds like you are the one mocking God. Now if God forced and made you by FORCE to stop mocking him, as you suggested HE must do, and compose the same force to stop Pharaoh from killing the Israelite babies, how can that really be defined as acting justly in the absolute way that is fair to all?
DowTingTom wrote:Tell me what event occurred in Exodus 1:6, 8, 10, 11, 13, now look at Exodus 1:15, 22 and what happened?
Exodus 1:6 - Joseph and his entire generation died.
Exodus 1:8 - Egypt has a new king who doesn't know Joseph. Because he's dead, I presume.
Exodus 1:10 The new king notices there are more Hebrews than Egyptians and suggest they deal with them "wisely" in case they fight against the Egyptians in some futire war.
Exodus 1:11 to 13 Despite the king's fears that the larger number of Hebrews would be a threat, he somehow (seemingly effortlessly) enslaves them so they are "afflicted with hard labour" It is not clear why God allowed this to happen when presumably the Hebrew people - the ones god claims to prefer - prayed to prevent it.
Exodus 1 15 and 22 - Pharaoh told the midwives to kill all the male babies of the Hebrews, but they didn't do so, and lied to Pharaoh as to why not, and God rewarded the midwives. So Pharaoh told the Egypt people to throw Hebrew boys into the Nile instead.
So we have a situation in which a megalomaniacal human sinner has unilaterally decided that all the male children of a particular race should be killed as soon as they are born. The correct term for this is genocide.
God does nothing at all to help these children. He could have 'softened' Pharaoh's heart and alleviated the suffering of both the children and their parents, and made the world a better place. But he didn't. You might argue that God could not intervene to soften Pharaoh's heart because he gave us free will, but then you'd have to explain why then God intervened to harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9. If God can intervene to make Pharaoh behave in a way that makes the situation worse, why did he not intervene to make it better?
DowTingTom, sounds like you are the one mocking God. Now if God forced and made you by FORCE to stop mocking him, as you suggested HE must do, and compose the same force to stop Pharaoh from killing the Israelite babies, how can that really be defined as acting justly toward all in the absolute sense?
You are making the case that God must use brute force, to change people, and then in the same breath condemn him if he did. Such brute force, you require, in order for you to even to begin to think remotely that might God exist, such tyranny by God would be an unjust act. You have not considered that, have you?
How could God acting like you desire him to act be unjust? It would be unjust toward the gift and promises spoken by God to all Humanity, unjust to those God made with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge so that each can govern their own little world, God would be proven unjust, unrighteous, and unable to keep his word, if he reneged.
God spoke and gave his word that humanity can exercise dominion over the earth, and the ability to tend and keep the earth, to exercise the ability to have social relationships with each other, etc. This shows forth the justice of God in allowing people the ability to think and reason independently. Even foreknowing, humanity would abuse his (God’s) own gifting, did not stop God from granting liberty.
Why should it? Being all powerful, includes the ability to be able to work through all things, justly proving God true to his own promises no matter what meddling free agents try to thwart God's plan (Rev 21:1-5).
You, on the other hand bemoan that God let’s people live as they will, enslaving, killing, robbing, bring ruin, and when God does actually stop this by use of force you cite him as a moral monster for doing so!!!
God will not bow to you. He will let you exercise the gifting He endowed you with, and let you continue to mock Him. The great item about God is, that He is Just in letting you do this and not stopping you, while also providing an escape from being held accountable for this, by Christ’s work on that Cross, so that you can be forgiven of your prideful insolence if you but surrender.
God offers a choice. Which way will folks live? He lets them live the way they choose. Holds them to account and deals with all things Justly. Even to his-own hurt.
Now re-read Gal 6:7 again…
Look at your next comment below and how it seeks to pit God’s just character against itself…thus proving my point stated above…
DowTingTom wrote:You appear to be using the Galatians’ passage ("what you sow, so you shall reap") to justify an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God slaughtering the first born males of Egypt like he is a seven year old in a playground fight. Frankly, if the best moral defense of God committing genocide is "but he started it!" then God is in a bad way, especially when God has shown that he is willing and able to override the free will of Pharaoh by "hardening" his heart.
And of course, by this stage of the bible God had already drowned everything on earth that breathes air apart from those on the Ark ...
Gen 6:5, Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
God fashioned humanity as eternal beings…
Eccl 3:11
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart...
He cannot be guilty of genocide since all live on eternally, can He?
Heb 9:28
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Job 34:10, 11, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way." NASB
Jeremiah 32:19-20, "...great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds; 17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right.
18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." NASB
Mat 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." NASB
Without offering a choice, yes, God would be unjust and unloving.
You asked: Why did Jesus have to die?
The answer: to offer you a choice...
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." NASB
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Part Two Below: