Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Swimmy wrote:Its starting to look like Fanti's claims are full of crap
Swimmy we won't fully know everything until the peer reviewed results come in.
As far as the guy who wrote the critical review of Fanti's tests and book , his name is gian marco rinaldi and it seems like he probably is some kind of skeptic. He is also skeptical of the illustration of the shroud in the Hungarian pray codex saying it wasnt the shroud even though it had the 4 poker holes and the 3 way herringbone weave of the shroud on the illustration.
Rinaldi doesnt seem like a very unbiased researcher here.
You should do a little digging into this guy.
It seems like joe nickells website also uses some of his skeptical research as well.
You have to understand that anything as explosive as this is going to cause quite a stir as I'm sure that Ray Rogers thermochimica acta paper did in 2005.
I'm in a wait and see mode as far as Fanti's tests as he hasn't even been given a chance to respond yet.
Just did some research on rinaldi and what do you know
It looks like he is a part of a skeptic organization in Italy called cicap . It was tough to find any info on him since its all in Italian .
And when we look through the list of researchers who do we find that pops out like a sore thumb but
Luigi Garlaschelli
Whose he you ask?
He's the atheist scientist hired by an atheist organization in Italy that funded his research into attempting the 2009 replication of the shroud, which of course failed to replicate the shroud.
Is there a summary of the information here? I want to start researching this but I'm not sure where to start
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
-Galileo Galilei What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
-A.W. Tozer
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
-Galileo Galilei What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
-A.W. Tozer
I don't know if this has already been posted or not but either way, I saw this a day or so ago. It's a pretty well done five part series on the Shroud. Here are the links.
Hello everyone, here is very good presentation by photographer, sturp team member and owner of shroud.com's Berry Schwartz on the Shroud. He address many of the frequently asked questions of the Shroud from Christians. It's certainly one of my all time favorite presentations. You can find it here GB:
This is a remarkable video. And while a bit long to keep the attention of many, it's well worth watching in its entirety. Especially fascinating is the very last portion, where Barrie speaks of confronting within himself what he is to make of this Shroud of Christ - as he had come to believe it to be authentic / impossible to fake and that he had been personally used by God to make information about it known to the world. And yet, he's still not a Christian - hasn't come to the point where he can say that Jesus was/is God. But, as he says to those who are greatly distressed over this - who he knows have concerns based in love, "I'm not dead yet."
If it were only a matter of pure logic, examining the Scriptures, realizing that a miraculous, extraordinary historical artifact almost certainly confirms what they say about Jesus' horrific death, burial and resurrection, I think Barrie would believe. But something is holding him back. What is it? I believe it's the necessary action that all rational people, those knowing the incredible validations of a God-built universe, Scripture, prophecy, understandings about Jesus fulfillment of so many things - STILL must make: They must take one hand off of their total reliance on logic and grasp faith with it. Notice I didn't say they need to TOTALLY abandon logic with the other hand. But if logic can point to truth (though not PROVE it as such), and God is THE Truth, then a necessary bridge can exist between them. But every believer must cross that bridge!
But the fact that Barrie believes this Shroud could only have been miraculously and divinely produced, and that he acknowledges that it confirms the Gospel accounts (at least about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection) and yet he hasn't embraced Jesus as God, to me, shows the limits of logic to produce faith. As salvation requires something that goes beyond powerful evidences and pure logic. Faith!
Last edited by Philip on Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
God himself could appear before a person and still they won't believe, no evidence ever can convict a person who doesn't want to be convicted.
But the shroud is surely the most interesting artifact I have ever read about.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Philip wrote:This is a remarkable video. And while a bit long to keep the attention of many, it's well worth watching in its entirety. Especially fascinating is the very last portion, where Barrie speaks of confronting within himself what he is to make of this Shroud of Christ - as he had come to believe it to be authentic / impossible to fake and that he had been personally used by God to make information about it known to the world. And yet, he's still not a Christian - hasn't come to the point where he can say that Jesus was/is God. But, as he says to those who are greatly distressed over this - who he knows have concerns based in love, "I'm not dead yet."
If it were only a matter of pure logic, examining the Scriptures, realizing that a miraculous, extraordinary historical artifact almost certainly confirms what they say about Jesus' horrific death, burial and resurrection, I think Barrie would believe. But something is holding him back. What is it? I believe it's the necessary action that all rational people, those knowing the incredible validations of a God-built universe, Scripture, prophecy, understandings about Jesus fulfillment of so many things - STILL must make: They must take one hand off of their total reliance on logic and grasp faith with it. Notice I didn't say they need to TOTALLY abandon logic with the other hand. But if logic can point to truth (though not PROVE it as such), and God is THE Truth, then a necessary bridge can exist between them. But every believer must cross that bridge!
But the fact that Barrie believes this Shroud could only have been miraculously and divinely produced, and that he acknowledges that it confirms the Gospel accounts (at least about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection) and yet he hasn't embraced Jesus as God, to me, shows the limits of logic to produce faith. As salvation requires something that goes beyond powerful evidences and pure logic. Faith!
Correct Phillip, but just maybe all that is needed for Barry to one day make that final move is just a bunch of prayers from all of us. And I do agree that there should at least have been some mention of the 88 c14 tests, but my guess is that Schwortz has been down that road so many times , though it would have been nice if he had pulled a Ray Rogers thermochimica acta out of his side pocket.
But my main question is , WHY isn't NEHA on this thread
Danieltwotwenty wrote:God himself could appear before a person and still they won't believe, no evidence ever can convict a person who doesn't want to be convicted.
But the shroud is surely the most interesting artifact I have ever read about.
Correct Daniel, but it certainly interesting to see how the shroud has been influential enough in Barry's life to the point that he's been getting very chummy with the Christian community . It's also interesting that Rebecca Jackson was in the back of the room, and she herself was an Orthodox Jew before her research into the shroud and now has come to Christ.
Very interesting indeed.
