Are we really chosen?

[Sam1995]

I am not going to explain my personal position on this thread. instead I want to hear your viewpoints just as a matter of curiosity. As followers and children of God, are we chosen by Him as the apostle Paul says? or rather did we choose God completely of our own free will or is there a compromise to be made here? Like I said - no Biblical references from me as of yet as I am not explaining my view as of now!

What do you think? i understand that is very quickly develops into a free will vs predestination argument but we have enough threads for that so let's just stick to is specific topic!

Sam

[theophilus]

The Bible plainly clearly teaches that we choose God and it teaches just as clearly that God chooses us. I think the explanation to this apparent contradiction is that these two truths are simply parts of some greater truth that we simply don't have the ability to comprehend yet. When we finally see the whole truth we will see that there is no contradiction. I have made a more detailed explanation of this here:

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... -choice-2/

[B. W.]

I am not going to explain my personal position on this thread. instead I want to hear your viewpoints just as a matter of curiosity. As followers and children of God, are we chosen by Him as the apostle Paul says? or rather did we choose God completely of our own free will or is there a compromise to be made here? Like I said - no Biblical references from me as of yet as I am not explaining my view as of now!

What do you think? i understand that is very quickly develops into a free will vs predestination argument but we have enough threads for that so let's just stick to is specific topic!

Sam

Let's take it form what Jesus said in John...

"You did not choose (εξελεξασθε - 1586) Me but I chose (εξελεξαμην 1586) you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. " John 15:16 NASB

The key to understanding is found in the Greek word εξελεξασθε - εξελεξαμην used in the language here. It depends on if an Arminian or Calvinist is seeking to buttress their positions that confuses this word and its intended meaning in the text.

AMG OT and NT Word Dictionary points out something interesting quoted below:

eklégō; fut. ekléxō, from ek (1537), out, and légō (3004), to select, choose. To choose, select, choose for oneself, not necessarily implying the rejection of what is not chosen, but giving favor to the chosen subject, keeping in view a relationship to be established between the one choosing and the object chosen. It involves preference and selection from among many choices. In the NT found only in the mid. eklégomai

And Vines Dictionary reads for this word:

Choice, Choose, Chosen

A. Verbs.

1. eklego (G1586), "to pick out, select," means, in the middle voice, "to choose for oneself," not necessarily implying the rejection of what is not chosen, but "choosing" with the subsidiary ideas of kindness or favor or love, Mark 13:20; Luke 6:13; Luke9:35 (RV); Luke10:42; Luke14:7; John6:70; John13:18; John 15:16, John 15:19; Acts 1:2, Acts 1:24; Acts 6:5; Acts 13:17; Acts 15:22, Acts 15:25; in Acts 15:7 it is rendered "made choice"; 1 Co 1:27-28; Eph 1:4; James 2:5.

The word is a compound word from ek (1537) out of, and légō (3004) and here is where folks miss what is being said.

Look at AMG Dictionary again for Lego:

légō; fut. léxō. Originally to lay or let lie down for sleep, to lay together, i.e., to collect. Finally to lay before, i.e., to relate, recount; and hence the prevailing Attic and later meaning of to say, speak, i.e., to utter definite words, connected and significant speech equal to discourse. It thus differs in some instances from laléō (G2980), to utter sounds, which may refer only to words spoken and not to their connected sense. In the NT:

I) To lay before, i.e., to relate such as a parable, to put forth, propound, with the dat. of person

(II) To say, speak, discourse.
(A) Generally and construed (1) With an adjunct of the object, i.e., the words spoken, the thing or person spoken of. (a) Followed by the words uttered

The idea is speech - a calling out.

Now think about it. An all knowing God decides to call out to those lost and does - would he not also know the results of His on calling out will have on all people before any was ever born in order to be absolutely all knowing??

Would not His calling out to all people everywhere prove He is absolutely Just and Righteous in all he does and is???

If some reject (unbelief) would that be their own selection or God's?

When The Lord eklégomai - it involves Him and His Word that God's forth - it involves a selection based upon God calling out first and only - not us but him.

Ponder this - if God remained silent in the Garden of Eden after the fall of Humanity and decided to remain silent to all future generations as well too, then, how could anyone ever be saved?

In fact how could the denial of calling out a divine - where are you Gen 3:9 - be just?

What does Gen 3:9 say to you?

If by arbitrary selection only - why did God say where are you (Gen 3:9) with choice in mind for the hearers to respond too?

The problem people have is comparing God to human Kings and Leaders who are arbitrary in selection and moving that into the realm of theology. God's Sovereignty, like God Himself is far deeper and not limited to any one particular means of accomplishing something. To be absolutely all powerful indicates the ability to be not limited in just one way but rather a diverse omnipotent ways that steer things to a desired goal that proves the God is absolutely, Righteous, Just, Merciful, in all his way - way beyond what we can fully grasp. In this way He can be merciful with who He Calls and unmerciful to who he calls - He can harden...

Think about it

Think outside the box...
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[Philip]

Yes, Scripture is clear that God chose all those whom would answer His call, positively respond to His prompting, and guide them all the way to salvation - and yet, no one could come to Him without His prompting and enlightenment. Yet people can (and DO) begin to positively respond to God's prompting and enlightenment or not - WELL before salvation (for Christians, see the story of Cornelius, in Acts 10). But He longs that ALL come to Him, but He's also given all the freedom to reject His overtures to ALL of His prompting/enlightening.

It's also clear in Scripture exactly who has rejected WHOM (see Romans 1-2). And we know God's heart and Holy, Just and Loving Character. We know that HE did not sow rebellion (temporary or permanent) against Himself, or trap people in their sins - sins He repeatedly warns them to repent of/shows great anger that they do not. Scripture consistently shows that God expects people to repent and that they CAN repent, but that most refuse to. And so why would God be angry with people for not doing what He COMMANDS them to do, says He DESIRES they do, UNLESS they COULD do so IF they sincerely desired to obey. If in their heart they want to obey, God will empower them to that - all the way to salvation (and at each stage, giving and allowing them decisions to make)! But God's foreknowledge of all things means that He has ALWAYS known exactly the names of all that would eventually accept/reach BACK/love Him and all that would reject Him.

The problem is when men try to put our Holy, Omnipotent, All-Knowing God into the logic of their man-made theological box, which was deduced by their limited, human brains. He won't FIT, can't be CONTAINED, nor can He ever be adequately Explained. But my how they keep trying!

[neo-x]

Sam, I think its very simple, God chooses us "in Christ"..that is the distinction here, without Christ there is no special distinction. We choose God, and God chose those who are in Christ. There is no bre-birth selection of believers for without faith, how can someone be chosen concretely? Even if it is in God's plan, it depends on the person to receive such a calling and then obey or disobey it.

Remember, God does not choose people on whims and acts, he chooses people in faith. That is why we say we are chosen by God, but the merit of the choice rests in Christ, not in us.

God chose us in Christ, to be his sons and daughters.
God chose us in Christ for everlasting life.
God chose us in Christ...

[Danieltwotwenty]

That a really interesting take on free will v predestination, I always held both to be true even though they are contradictory idea's, this is the first time I have read an explanation that reconciles this conundrum. Well done.

I am looking forward to any replies you get Neo that may challenge your position.



Edit. Now that I have had time to think about it some more, I see now what you have said does not really relate to F v P.

But I still like it in respect to the topic.

[Sam1995]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Going to spend some more time thinking on this then discuss

God bless