Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolution

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neo-x
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Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolution

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Moth tongues, orchids and Darwin – the predictive power of evolution

excerpt
...Back in early 1862, a British orchid grower sent Charles Darwin a series of orchids from Madagascar, which included the beautiful and star-shaped flower of Angraecum sesquipedale. This has an exceptionally long nectary (getting on for 30 cm) and in a book on orchid pollination, Darwin suggested that this extreme feature may have evolved alongside a moth with an exceptionally long tongue to pollinate it.

He wrote to a friend at Kew "I have just received such a Box full from Mr Bateman with the astounding Angraecum sesquipedalia [sic] with a nectary a foot long. Good Heavens what insect can suck it", and in a second letter just a few days later suggested "in Madagascar there must be moths with probosces capable of extension to a length of between ten and eleven inches [25.4–27.9cm]". Here was a firm prediction and one that has become famous in evolutionary circles, but hard to confirm.

While we now recognise the idea of such co-evolution to be common and well known (and indeed, the pollinator-flower interactions are a great example of this), it was at the time a novel suggestion. More specifically it was also a new prediction – although other related orchids were known to be a food source for hawkmoth species, none with such a prodigious tongue needed to deal with A. sesquipedale was known in Madagascar.

Darwin was postulating the existence of an otherwise unknown species of insect based purely on the size of the flower and his understanding of the evolution and ecology or orchids and insects. As it happens a candidate moth had been catalogued from the Congo region of Africa in the 1830s (Xanthopan morganii), but that is some distance from Madagascar and Darwin can hardly have known about it at the time.

In 1907, more than 20 years after Darwin's death, a subspecies of the gigantic Congo moth from Madagascar was identified and named as X. morganii praedicta apparently fulfilling Darwin's prediction (the name indicating that it was predicted, though actually in the paper naming the moth Darwin wasn't mentioned). The moth is large at around 16cm in wingspan, but the proboscis is truly colossal and can be more than 20cm in length forming a huge coil in front of the head when not in use. However, while there was now an orchid with a long nectary and a moth with a huge tongue, the question remained: did X. morganii praedicta really feed on A. sesquipedale?

It wasn't until 1992, nearly a century later, that observations were made of the moth feeding on the flower and transferring pollen from plant to plant with both videos and stills being taken. This was observed in the wild and confirmed further with studies in captivity.

Thus more than 130 years after Darwin first suggested that a large moth pollinated an African orchid, his hypothesis was confirmed. It took quite some time, but quite clearly Darwin's prediction, based on extremely limited evidence but bolstered by his understanding of his own new theory of natural selection, was correct...
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

So what came first the moth or the orchid. 8-}2
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Thadeyus »

And here I was hoping there was a "Ba-boom, Tish!" smiley/emote to go along with Danieltwotwenty's last post. ;)

Ah well....

Very much cheers to all.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

Thadeyus wrote:And here I was hoping there was a "Ba-boom, Tish!" smiley/emote to go along with Danieltwotwenty's last post. ;)

Ah well....

Very much cheers to all.

Haha yea it was very tongue in cheek because we all know that moths didn't evolve from orchids sheesh! They just have a common ancestor. y:O2
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by neo-x »

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So what came first the moth or the orchid. 8-}2
what do you mean dan?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

neo-x wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:So what came first the moth or the orchid. 8-}2
what do you mean dan?
Nothing Neo, just some light hearted humor. I know they both evolved in conjunction with each other and their surroundings. One question though I find interesting is why, why just evolve to suit one particular moth, what if that moth species died out, it seems a little strange to have all your eggs in one basket. Well it kind of makes sense if there is a creator guiding the process, because God can do what he wants. But from the secular perspective wouldn't it be more fit to diversify rather than specialise?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by neo-x »

You are on the right track, just think for a moment. While it sounds fairly easy, it is very much logical that many organisms may have died which were not fit to take advantage. Are you with me? It is not unfair to assume that the species which did not evolve died out with respect to natural selection. Now I'm not saying that this means all extinction happened for this reason...but if on an island you have flowers such as these ONLY, all other moth species would eventually die out in comparison to this moth. The only surviving species would be the one which was able to sustain the pressure of natural selection.

One other thing, the flower did not evolve to suit the moth...that is the wrong way to look at it, the flower evolved and the moth evolved alongside. To gain access to pollen, the moth needs to access the nectary of the flower, the longer the flower started to grow, with time the moths with the longest tongues only could access it. Over time, a species of moths evolved specifically with longer tongues as all their ancestors breeding were moths with larger tongues, are you with me again?

Thus with the evolution of this orchid, the moth evolved too, those who didn't had to choose a different flower, and different area for food, pollen, etc, since their shorter tongues were not able to access this flower, thus remaining in the region of this flower would only be the moths who were relatively longer tongued out of a random population but with time, the trait became permanent and highlighted since breeding longer tongued moths overtime would result in a species whose tongue was long to get to the nectary of the flower.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
Thadeyus
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Thadeyus »

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Thadeyus wrote:And here I was hoping there was a "Ba-boom, Tish!" smiley/emote to go along with Danieltwotwenty's last post. ;)

Ah well....

Very much cheers to all.

Haha yea it was very tongue in cheek because we all know that moths didn't evolve from orchids sheesh! They just have a common ancestor. y:O2
:lol:

:pound:

Your humor does crack me up. :mrgreen:

*Note: As in I take the above comments to be the light-hearted joke/humor/comedy/ridiculousness that they seem to be.

Very much cheers to all.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

Interesting stuff Neo it makes sense from the moth perspective, but why would the orchid grow a longer and longer trumpet, what selective pressures were involved in that process. What advantage does the flowers trumpet length give it. The only thing I can think of would be to create said moth because by having a creature that specialises in that particular orchid would mean that it is gauranteed to get pollinated, but wouldn't it be more advantageous to make the nectre more accessible so a more diverse range of creatures pollinate it. If that is so what selective pressures set it on that path of growing a longer trumpet, why not make the nectre as accessible as possible.

I hope that makes sense.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by PerciFlage »

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Interesting stuff Neo it makes sense from the moth perspective, but why would the orchid grow a longer and longer trumpet, what selective pressures were involved in that process. What advantage does the flowers trumpet length give it.
If an orchid has a longer flower, then moths have to spend longer at that particular orchid in order to reach the nectar. The longer a moth spends at one orchid, the more pollen rubs off onto that moth, and the more that orchid's genes are distributed relative to other plants in the population. That's one selective pressure towards longer orchid flowers but, as you note, there's a balancing act between having a flower long enough to confer a reproductive advantage over other orchids, and having one so long that moths are unable to reach the nectar and choose another flower instead.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by neo-x »

Perci is right...if you read the full article I listed in the OP, it addressed our point.
Pollination is a key part of the life cycle of flowering plants – pollen must get from one plant to another in order to fertilise the ova, but being unable to move makes the whole job rather tricky. Some plants rely on the wind and simply produce masses of pollen in the expectation that some will blow onto the right flower eventually.

Others, including orchids, take a more direct route – luring insects to them with deceptive signals or rewards of nectar and then dumping pollen on them. If the insect (or indeed bird, bat or other carrier) visits another flower of the same species shortly afterwards, the pollen will be delivered. Some species of plants and insect evolve complex relationships where both can benefit – if the insect is the only one that can access the nectar it is guaranteed food others are denied, while the flower further reduces the risk of misdelivered pollen and can cut back on its investments.
There is a trade off in pollen production (which is costly) and the important point in not to get the pollen onto the insect but to get that specific individual insect to another flower shortly afterwards while the pollen is viable. So this way longer tongue moths only visit flowers of the same species, flowers with deep nectaries, thus pollen is distributed on to the right orchids.

Restricting access to one species to increase the chance of fertilisation rather than the insect going onto a flower of a different species.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

Ok I see now, so specialisation is important for maintaining a more pure pollination process.

Sorry I should have read the full article, thanks for taking the time to explain.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by neo-x »

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Ok I see now, so specialisation is important for maintaining a more pure pollination process.

Sorry I should have read the full article, thanks for taking the time to explain.
Great, you should check out the evolution resource thread I started.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Moth tongues...Darwin – the predictive power of evolutio

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

neo-x wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Ok I see now, so specialisation is important for maintaining a more pure pollination process.

Sorry I should have read the full article, thanks for taking the time to explain.
Great, you should check out the evolution resource thread I started.
I have started reading it, it is a lot to chew on.

I have started my own evolution thread, trying to understand secular evolution.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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