The Apostles deaths

[WannaLearn]

In regard to the deaths, people choose death for a perceived greater good all the time. Most of our information about the deaths of the apostles is derived from early church traditions. These deaths simply show the conviction of their beliefs. It doesn't show that Jesus was divine or that there is an afterlife. Its just assertions. ??

[WannaLearn]

And this was a part of a conversation I was having with an Atheist on you tube.

[Jac3510]

Yes, people die for things they are convinced are true all the time. The question is, where did they get the idea what they believe is true? That's easy for you and me--perhaps it was our study or something as simple as what we were raised to believe. But the apostles believed that Jesus was God in the flesh and that He had risen from the dead. That's just a simple historical fact. So, the question is, where did they get that belief?

That may sound like a trivial question, but ask yourself this: what would it take for you to become convinced that your best friend was actually the Creator of the Universe come to earth and that your friend had died for you, had been resurrected from the dead, and now was in heaven and was going to return someday to establish a universal government on earth. Honestly, what would it take for you to be convinced of that?

It's quite an interesting historical issue . . . we don't have one man so convinced. We have lot's of people so convinced, people who saw Jesus in the flesh, walked with Him, saw Him die, etc. You have to explain where that came from, and the apostles being willing to die for that belief (to a man, no less) goes to how deeply they held it. Where did that come from?

I have a good guess . . .

[Philip]

and the apostles being willing to die for that belief (to a man, no less) goes to how deeply they held it. Where did that come from?

Yes, Jac - and here's the thing: Unlike the 9-11 hijackers who were deceived by the lies that caused them to murder so many innocent people and commit suicide - who sincerely believed those lies to be truth - the Apostles and many others KNEW whether they actually saw a Resurrected Jesus and they were intimately interactive with many, many others who also so Him. So would they ALL die for a lie - a lie they all unmistakably KNEW was a lie. They all well knew of the barbaric methods of Roman justice, all knew Jesus received it as well - would they have ALL risked the very same fate for a lie they KNEW was a lie? Were they ALL lunatics with some cult-like death wish? Read their sober words and preaching of love, harmony, grace and seeking and acting in truth - do they SOUND like crazy lunatics typical of fanatic cults? Were they ALL liars and lunatics? Absolutely NOT!

And what are we to make of the Apostle Paul - highly educated, a respected and renowned - an up-and-coming rockstar of Judaism - and so what is HIS deal? Lawyerly, intellectual, zealous for his strong beliefs, widely feared for rooting out this Jewish Christian "cult" - what else besides encountering Jesus on the Road to Damascus can even come close to explaining his incredible 180?

Paul testifies that he endured: "far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches."

Paul traded his immense respect and stature, acceptance by the establishment for all of THAT? WHY? He of all people knew that he was inviting his own gruesome death - either by Jewish or Roman hands. And, quite interesting, his was an overnight transformation - not as if he, over a period of time, "lost it" or went mad. Paul's writings are those of an especially thoughtful, determined intellectual, a master communicator whom had great love for those he was burdened to reach.

[B. W.]

There is but one difference that made the Apostles go forth and that was to lay down their lives for their friends - so their future friends in God can be saved.

It was not a cause, or idea, or religious philosophy they died for but rather when you pick up your cross to follow Jesus - don't expect to return.

They died for the friends of God who were once enemies because no greater love there is...

...that is the kind of love that shakes a person up - changes his/her life course to walk as Jesus walk and in time bare that same cross expecting not to return... They gave their all, not to blow up buildings, kill, slander others to bring in utopia but rather change the lives of those the touched with a gift of Christ like Love profound.

All others - well - lack this kind of love... that is the difference.

We need more of Christ and less of self

God Bless...
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