A lockout regarding osas

[ultimate777]

If its not right to discuss someone elses lockout, OK. Lock this out if you think thats the right thing to do, I won't complain.

Someone started a OSAS thread. He may not have gone about it in the best way. I have not kept up. Maybe it has been done to death.

My pastor seems in his sermons to believe in OSAS. I have been considering bringing up possibilities to him expressed in the locked out thread.
I considered this http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =9&t=38739 a sign from God I should do so'.
I just now sent my pastor an email with this link in it. I thought the link was less than perfect, way too long, but to find it was lockout worthy......

Truly the ways of the Lord are mysterious, his wonders to perform.

[RickD]

Ultimate,

If you are interested in a discussion, I will unlock the thread for you. Just let me know by pm, or respond here.

[ultimate777]

Ultimate,

If you are interested in a discussion, I will unlock the thread for you. Just let me know by pm, or respond here.

Actually, Rick, I don't know if I am interested in a discussion, except wih my pastor. I think the origional post of the origional thread left much to be desired, and so long as you and I are good, I just want to leave it up to you.

Ultimate

[RickD]

Ultimate,

If you want to read some of the many threads here about assurance of salvation, and osas, put "assurance" in the search box. You'll find a lot of threads there. Or, if you have any questions about assurance from someone who believes in it, you can pm me. Jac3510(Chris) would be probably the best member here to answer your questions. I believe pretty much the same as he does, but he explains it much better than I can.

[1over137]

Ultimate,

If you are interested in a discussion, I will unlock the thread for you. Just let me know by pm, or respond here.

May I note something?

Recently I read this from Luke 8:11-15

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; [c]they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with [d]perseverance.

See the text I put in bold

[vanquish29]

As I begin this study, I must make some statements. First, every Christian is struggling with sin. Temptation is always at our doorstep, and sometimes we fall into the sin. The child of God Repents, even if we must repent over and over again, we repent! We call out to Jesus to help us. Our hearts desire to serve the Lord, and we strive to turn away from sin and walk in obedience. To those who fall into this description, I wish to assure you, your salvation is secure with Christ. But there are others, who use this security as a license to freely sin against God, and walk in disobedience, without a heart of repentance, feeling secure of their salvation while trampling Jesus underfoot and insulting the Holy Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29)! This study is written to confront these deceived souls, who may very well be in danger of perishing!

Did Jesus ever teach that once you are saved, that you cannot lose your salvation? We are assured eternal security, yes, but only to those who remain in the faith until the end. To those who Obey Him and overcome!

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt.7:21)

Mat 21:28-31
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.

If you will read the remaining verses in Matthew 21, it was the Pharisees who, after telling the Father they would obey, disobeyed God anyway. Then, there were those who at first, refused to obey while they were living in sin, but then repented, and DID THE WILL OF THE FATHER. It is no different than some today who trust on the OSAS doctrine to save them, like those pharisees who trusted that as children of Abraham, they were safe and secure while they continued to sin against God. After repentance and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord these OSAS students who trust their security, willfully return to their sinful vomit and live in disobedience to God, and claim that as Children of God, they will not have to pay the "wages of sin", which is death!

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22)


“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt.7:21)

Hebrews 5:9 “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”;

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


UNLESS WE REMAIN IN CHRIST, WE WILL PERISH!

Once saved Always saved teachers have disregarded the "IF" in the scriptures. It is a condition! I will give you $50 IF you will cut my grass. If you do NOT cut my grass, the $50 is NOT yours!

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory (hold fast, retain) what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor. 15:1-2 )

Albert Barne's Commentary explains this verse as "The idea is, that they were saved by this, or would be, if they faithfully retained or held the doctrine as he delivered it; if they observed it, and still believed it..."

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible puts it this way "it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end;"

Compare the above scripture in 1 Cor. 15:1-2 with the Galatian church that did NOT retain the gospel that Paul preached and had "fallen from grace". The end result of their fall from grace was that "Christ is become of NO effect unto you" !

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace". (Galatians 5:4)
This church was in grave danger of losing their salvation, having fallen from grace, by which Christ had become of no effect to them. Paul now labored to recover them before they were completely lost as he wrote this letter.

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

If the people of this church were so very secure in their salvation, Paul would not have written this letter with the concearn by which he wrote it, and the warnings of the fact that they have forsaken Christ and fallen from grace!

Later in this study, I will deal with the difference between "Works of the Law" which Paul was dealing with in the letter to the Galatians, and "Good Works" which James spoke of in his letter!

We shall now continue with the conditional "IF"!

“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:22)

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6)

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel... (Col 1:21-23 KJV)

Apostacy

The book of Hebrews warns the Christian brethren not to depart from God from an evil heart of unbelief, which can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Again, the conditional “if” is mentioned for those who believe and remain “stedfast to the end”! A backslider, whose heart is being hardened because of his sins, is in danger of departing from the living God! The brother whose heart is hardened because of his sin, ultimately departs from the Lord and denies the God who bought them.

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:12-14)


We are even warned, that in these last days there would be those who would "depart from the faith" such as defined in Hebrews 3:12-14 above and prophetically spoken of in the following verses below. These are those who, depart from God, leave the faith and loose their salvation! How do OSAS teachers explain away the following scriptures without wilfully doing harm to God's Word?

1 Tim. 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thes. 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostacy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word “depart” in Hebrews 3:12-14 and 1 Tim. 4:1 is "aphistemi" (Greek 575) and means to remove, revolt, desist, desert, depart, draw away, withdraw self. The word "falling away" in 2 Thes. 2:3 is apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as Greek 647 (apostasion); defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] :- falling away, forsake.

By definition, these verses are clearly speaking about Christians whom have turned away from the faith!

That is the reason why Hebrews 3:13, and 10:23-25 declares we must exhort each other daily and remain in the assembly of believers (church), that our faith remains strong, our conviction against sin remains pure, and our profession of faith does not waiver, provoking each other to love and "good works":

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) [24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

A brother that is living in sin by which his heart is being hardened, and has forsaken the church assembly, may be in grave danger of departing from the faith and losing his salvation! James 5:19-20 instructs us who are in the faith to attempt to turn such a person back to the truth to save his soul from death. Again, you will see the "if" condition.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

Please note the word "Soul" not "body"! By correcting the false error of the fallen brother, the one who converts him, will have saved his soul from hell and the grave! I pray that my study will save some souls from death and damnation!

Hebrews, warning against backslidding!

“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

[vanquish29]

Eternal Security


Unfortunately the teaching of eternal security is sometimes the source of problems within Christian circles. Some Christians believe that if you hold to eternal security you are purposely promoting a license to sin. On the other hand, some Christians believe that if you don't believe in eternal security you have to keep your salvation by works. Both sides often misrepresent the other and instead of being gracious on this debatable issue (as we are commanded to be in Romans 14:1-12) people accuse each other of being unbiblical.

It is the position of CARM that once a person is saved he cannot lose his salvation. I place my conviction upon this position because of my study of Scripture. But I do not claim that if someone is as studious as I am, that he will arrive at the same position. I recognize that there are godly people on both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, I must be true to my convictions and in light of repeated attacks upon CARM as a ministry because of this position, I felt it necessary to write a more detailed defense.

Please understand that eternal security is not a license to sin. The Christian is regenerated. He is changed from within, being made a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). Those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit will war with their sin and not seek to abide in it. Those who declare that they are eternally secure and then go out and sin on purpose in any manner they so choose are probably not saved to begin with since this is contradictory to what Scripture teaches. 1 John 2:4 says, "The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

There are a lot of verses raised by Christians who believe it is possible to lose one's salvation. I could analyze each one and provide explanations of how they fit together. But it would not be necessary if we can find Scripture that clearly states that a person cannot lose his salvation. If found, this would mean that any other scriptures used to teach we can lose our salvation must be interpreted in a manner consistent with the one(s) that clearly say we can't.

I will deal with three sets of scriptures: John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; 1 John 2:19.
John 6:37:40

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:37-40).

In verse 37, Jesus says, “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." It is clear that the Father gives to the Son those who believe and that Jesus says he will not cast them out.

In verse 38 Jesus says, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." Jesus tells us he is here to do the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father?

John 6:39-40, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,"

We can easily draw the conclusion that the will of the Father is that all who were given to the Son (v. 39) will not be lost and will be raised on the last day. But, the common objection is that the will of the Father is not always accomplished. In other words, it is the will of the Father that none be lost, but since his will is not always accomplished, there will be people who were saved but become lost. This might seem a possible interpretation, but when we look at the next verse we see it doesn't work. In verse 40 Jesus continues to tell us what the will of the Father is by saying that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life and that Jesus would raise him up on the last day.

Various versions translate verse 40 differently. The NIV says, "shall have eternal life." The KJV, NKJV, NRSV, say, "may have everlasting life." The RSV, ASV, ESV, GNT, ISV, NLT, say, "should have eternal life". NASB95 "will have eternal life." So, is eternal life something we may have when we believe or actually have when we believe? In other words, are we saved when we believe or not? It cannot be that we "may" have eternal life (be saved) if we believe because believing is what justifies us (Rom. 5:1); only the saved are justified. Furthermore, upon believing we have eternal life and we can know we have it as 1 John 5:13 says, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." To settle the issue, John 6:47 says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." So, we can conclude that there is no conditional eternal life upon believing, but that we receive salvation and eternal life when we believe which is why it says all who behold the Son and believe will have eternal life.

So, if verse 39 can be interpreted to say that the will of the Father can fail and some perish, then verse 40 must likewise be interpreted to say that the will of the Father fails in that those who believe on Jesus won't be saved and don't have eternal life. This cannot be! Otherwise, no one who believes in Christ can be sure he or she presently has eternal life -- which is in contradiction to 1 John 5:13 which says we can know!

Therefore, both 39 and 40 must be interpreted in the same manner; namely, that the will of the Father is actually accomplished in that all who belong to the Son will not perish and all who believe on the Son will have eternal life. Again, if all who belong to the Son might perish, then likewise all who believe on the Son might not be saved; that is, they might not possess eternal life if they believe in Christ! If that is the case, then we aren't justified by faith (Rom. 5:1).

Furthermore, versus 39 and 40 tells us that Jesus will raise them up on the last day. The one group of people who are raised on the last day are those who have been given by the Father to the Son (v. 37), who have believed on the Son (v. 40), who have eternal life (v. 40), and cannot be lost.
John 10:27-28

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand," (John 10:27-28).

Jesus tells us that he gives eternal life to the sheep, the Christians. He clearly and definitely states that they shall never perish. There is no qualifier here. There is no statement such as, "they shall never perish if they remain faithful." There is only the clear declaration that they shall never perish. This inability to perish is a result of the Lord Jesus giving them eternal life.

Furthermore, Jesus says that no one shall snatch them out of his hand which further emphasizes the idea that those who have eternal life will never perish. But, can we snatch ourselves out of Jesus' hand? No we can't because the term "no one" includes the person who is saved. Therefore, you cannot snatch yourself out of Christ's hand.

But there are opponents to this position that would state elsewhere in Scripture such declarations exist that teach we can lose our salvation. If that is the case, then they must be harmonized with the above sections of Scripture. But, I do not see how it is possible especially in light of John 6:37-40 above which teaches you can't lose your salvation.
1 John 2:19

The third Scripture I want to focus on is 1 John 2:19. It says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

The context is as follows. In 1:1-4, John speaks about the manifestation of Christ in the world. In 1:5-10 he speaks about God being light and the forgiveness of our sins. In 2:1-6 John says he writes so that we will not sin, that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and that we are to keep his commandments so as to demonstrate that we are walking in him. 2:7-11 is where John writes about a new commandment about loving your brother and walking in the light rather than darkness. In 2:12-14 tells us that our sins are forgiven, that we have overcome the evil one. In 2:15-17 John tells us not to love the world and that the world is passing away with its lusts. In 2:18-24 he writes about the Antichrist and those who deny the Son. In 2:25ff he speaks of the promise of eternal life, of loving one another, etc.

So, 2:18 is the immediate context of John telling us that many antichrists have arisen and then in v. 19 he says that they were not from us. Now, some people say that this verse does not prove eternal security because the people who left were antichrists and that they naturally would not have stayed. But, John is not telling us that if the antichrist's had been of them they would have stayed with him. That would make no sense. The reason the antichrists left was to show that they were not of us; that is, of God. But John declares that if these people had been "of us, they would have remained." Antichrists aren't going to remain, only the true believers will.

To me this declares clearly that those who really are of God will remain in those who are not will leave. It does not say that Christians become antichrists or that Christians lose their salvation. It differentiates between those who are true and false and states that the false will leave and the true will stay.
Predestination

Predestination is another controversial topic within the Christian church. Nevertheless, predestination is biblical. To predestine means that God has foreordained, chosen to bring about, what he has decide to accomplish. In Eph. 1:4-5 we find that God "...chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will." If God who knows all things from eternity, knows those who are his, knows whom he has chosen and predestined, and knows whom he gives to the son, can they be lost? If so, would that not mean that God, who has foreordained whatsoever shall come to pass (predestined), has ordained that he lose some of those whom he is called from eternity -- just so he can lose them? That makes no sense.

Is not God powerful enough, or knowledgeable enough in his predestination to ensure that the ones whom he has chosen for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13), will have eternal life and thus never perish (John 10:27-28)? It would seem to me that God's abilities far surpass our weaknesses and frailties.
Conclusion

The goal of this paper is not to provide an exhaustive study on the topic of eternal security. Instead, it is to present what I see as the definitive Scriptures supporting our security with Christ. Having said that, I am not aware of a convincing arguments that can refute my understanding of John 6:37-40, John 10:27-28, and 1 John 2:19. If there exists any, I'm always open to examining them and be corrected since I desire to represent God's Word properly.

Christians on both sides of this argument fail to be gracious. Each sometimes misrepresents the other's position. Therefore, we must honestly try to represent the other side properly before tackling it. Still, as Christians we must learn to be gracious to another as Romans 14:1-12 states.

Another concern I have is that the extremists in both sides point fingers at each other and accuse the other side of the worst heresy possible. I have heard eternal security be labeled as a doctrine of demons, straight from the pit of hell, and a purposeful excuse to abide in sin. Such accusations are foolish at best and those who make them should repent.

I've likewise heard people refer to conditional security as nothing more than works righteousness which leads to damnation. But is this a fair representation of the conditional salvation position? Not so. Most of those who hold to that view believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.

Personally, I believe that we are saved with a great deal of error and ignorance. The essentials revolve around the person of Christ and his work, not our faithfulness, not our goodness, not our ability to maintain ourselves. Instead, we must keep her eyes focused on Christ and his accomplishment and rest in him, not in our ability to stay saved, to remain faithful, to keep believing, etc.

No one has everything perfectly understood regarding this topic. Therefore, the best we can do is be faithful to God according to the understanding we have, treat fellow Christians with love and grace, and seek not to mislead others either into a license to sin, or inadvertently advocate keeping our salvation by being good. Each position has its strengths and weaknesses and if I understand human depravity properly, I know that it doesn't take much for us to use the grace of God for evil -- no matter what position you hold. So, let us be careful when judging others.

[RickD]

Vanquish,

Please be sure to show any links you are quoting from.

Thanks

[vanquish29]

source
www.carm.org and www.crossbearer.net

[Kurieuo]

I had a long drawn out discussion in the past with Jac on this matter.

While we describe things differently, there are many similarities perhaps.

For me this is a complicated issue because of some embedded definitions that people take for granted.

Firstly, an important issue that I see for "once saved always saved" doctrine, is in defining who we are -- such that the who is saved at some point in the past, is the same person who dies on their deathbed.

Secondly, I do not believe that God forces Himself on us. It is just something I cannot accept. Otherwise everyone would be saved. Universalism would be true. God desires our freedom, for it is in such freedom that we can truly respond to God out of love, or freely reject Him.

In defining "the self", I do not believe that who we are as a child is the same person when we die. In this world, I believe our decisions and choices help to define us and shape who we are. Yes, we are the same entity... I am the same being now, that I was as a child, baby or in my mother's womb... but who I am is quite different due to both physical and mental changes.

Now those who believe once saved (i.e., I make a firm decision to come to Christ), always saved (even if I reject, rebuke and purposefully lead others away from God)... attach the "I" to one or more state/s of the self in the past.

Since I believe "the self" isn't static, but rather quite "dynamic" -- such that who I am continues evolve over time until the day I die -- to say "once saved, always saved" becomes a category error. For who is it we are referring to if "the self" is dynamic and not one or several particular instances in our lifetime?

I do believe however, that one can have security of salvation -- knowledge that we are saved in the current moment of our lives.

Since I don't know what it is like to lose salvation, I can't comment on such matters of my knowledge being wrong re: my being saved. It is quite unfathomable to me how I could deny Christ.

My security may be misplaced due to my knowledge being wrong about myself, but this does not destroy the fact that one can be right about who they really are on some ontological level. In the latter instances, the security is valid. In the former it is invalid. However, this is strictly an issue of knowledge and epistemology, not what is actually the case of our secure nature (i.e., ontologically).

To re-frame, I am responding in advance to the challenge that security can only be had when believing in OSAS doctrine. However, just as someone's knowledge might be wrong in believing "once saved, always saved" to be correct (rendering their "security" invalid), so too my knowledge of being secure in my salvation might be wrong. However, I don't believe it for a second I am wrong about my security in being saved. It is an as strongly held belief as I can have. As long as what I believe to be true of Christ and the gospel (just like OSAS proponents) is in fact true, which I also strongly believe to be true.

In the end, both seem to me quite similar -- "security of salvation" and "once saved always saved" -- only the former is defined in terms that makes better sense of a dynamic self rather than a static self being carried through time.