My Plight as an Agnostic

[Anonymous]

I am 20 yrs. old, and I want to know the truth about God's existence. As a matter of fact, it almost means the difference between life and death for me. I have come to the conclusion that the Universe does not necessarily need God to exist. Therefore, a necessary proof for Gods existence cannot be shown. I will give an explanation as to why. It is not important to read this part to understand my question though. If you want to skip it, scroll down to summery.
Religious people are more than willing to accept an all-powerfull, eternal being. They never seem willing to accept, that this Universe may be eternal and all that is. Why is this so? When all other unimportant reasons are eleminated, it seems to comes down to one reason: Faith. Something that I do not hold in my possesion. Since, I do not have faith and becuase I cannot simply fake faith, I am doomed to never be able to use this excuse. (I really do believe that I am doomed for not being Christian)
I have noticed many people talking about who made God if God created the Universe. That question though does not prove Gods' inexistence or existence even when answered, because it reults in an infinite progression of creators. God made the Universe. Someone made God. Someone made that someone and so on and so forth. Something must have come from nothing. I and I believe everyone else has to except that. Even if there were an infinite number of creators, they as a group would be something that came from nothing.
It seems as if all life in the Universe can be explained with the simple rules of physics. The body is very much like a machine with many nerves running to a brain. The ideas of artificial intelligence are almost tangible. We do not need a soul to have feeling, percieve color, or to talk about God. That's what the brain is for. Which brings me to one of my most important question of all, what is the purpose of the soul if our brain accounts for all actions of body and mind? I fear that question will never be ansered, but I am still not hopeless.
Summery
1. The Universe could have existed forever without God.
2. Something must have come from nothing
3. Life can be explained through physical laws.

Now, to my plight. If God does not exist, for what reason do I have to live. I could simply kill myself and forget about everything that ever happened. My life would only hold the value that I arbitrarily set for it. If God exists though and he created me for the purpose of love, then he will be angry for my action. (I hope he would be merciful) I do not enjoy life though. I cannot decide what I want to do. I get poor grades in college, because I'm too preoccupied with other things. Life just seems like a hardship; Something I have to bare. If I found out God didn't exist for absolute certainty, I would kill myself. I don't know and that's the only reason I live. Since God cannot be a proven certainty, I am only asking that those who believe will tell me about how I can experience God. If I experience him, then I may aquire faith. With faith I can escape from my plight.
David Hume a declared agnostic was asked by a friend before his death about wether or not he believed in life after death. Hist answere was, "It is possible that a knob of coal placed upon the fire will not burn."
Thank you for using your most valueable resource (time) to at least read my question.

Bobby

P.S. I left out my last name to prevent a call from mental health. In case a concerned person were to call them.

[Kurieuo]

Hi Bobby,

They never seem willing to accept, that this Universe may be eternal and all that is. Why is this so?

I can't speak for others, but there are several logical arguments, and also scientific arguments on why I don't accept our universe to be eternal. I won't get into the logical arguments as I am currently writing a response which will likely include these arguments, and I will simply post it and refer to it once complete. Yet, I'm sure you are aware of the astronomy and astrophysics which suggests our universe has a beginning? For example, the astrophysical evidence tends to indicate that the universe began to about 14 billion years ago (i.e., Big Bang). Physical space and time are said to be created in that event, in addition to the matter and energy in our universe. Now this is a little odd for the atheist, because as Anthony Kenny of Oxford University points out, "A proponent of the Big Bang theory, at least if he is an atheist, must believe that the universe came from nothing and by nothing." (Anthony Kenny, The Five Ways: St. Thomas Aquinas' Proofs of God's Existence (New York: Schocken Books, 1969), p. 66. -- quoted at http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcrai ... ley02.html)

When all other unimportant reasons are eleminated, it seems to comes down to one reason: Faith.

In my humble opinion, one needs far greater faith to believe that our universe popped into existence from nothing, than to believe in a creator.

I have noticed many people talking about who made God if God created the Universe.

This question is based on an unsound and faulty premise which either leads to absurdities or is self-refuting (depending on which way you go). As mentioned earlier, I am writing a response which will provide more details, and I promise to link to it from this thread when posted.

Something must have come from nothing. I and I believe everyone else has to except that.

Why must something have come from nothing? Such is simply an absurd claim. If nothing existed, then why does anything exist now? Rather it appears more logical to say something has always existed.

1. The Universe could have existed forever without God.
2. Something must have come from nothing
3. Life can be explained through physical laws.

1. Evidence suggests otherwise.
2. Such requires extreme faith, not to mention being incompatible with with the belief that the universe existed forever (in which case it doesn't require a cause).
3. I didn't know the origin of life problem was solved. For example, best-selling author and Natural Philosopher Paul Davies (an agnostic) writes:

When I set out to write this book, I was convinced that science was close to wrapping up the mystery of life's origins… Having spent a year or two researching the field, I am now of the opinion that there remains a huge gulf in our understanding… This gulf in understanding is not merely ignorance about certain technical details, it is a major conceptual lacuna.

(Paul Davies, The Fifth Miracle: The Search for the Origin and Meaning of Life (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1999), 17)

Now, to my plight. If God does not exist, for what reason do I have to live. I could simply kill myself and forget about everything that ever happened.

I once thought similarly. Yet, the reason for me wasn't so much why I wanted to kill myself, rather it was really why shouldn't I kill myself. Perhaps you know what I mean, but to someone who hasn't been there they just couldn't understand it as anything but lunacy. Yet, I did eventually get beyond that.

Anyway, I'm wondering if I could get you to read over one of my own writings which was a review of Thomas Nagel's (a secular philosopher) solution to absurdity in life? I don't agree with his own solution and views, but I'd personally be interested to know what you think of them - can read it here.

Kind regards,
Kurieuo.

[Jac3510]

Hey Bobby,

K handled the major objections in your post pretty well, so I'll just focus on the question, "How do you experience God?" There is a lot to (and a lot in) that question, so obviously my answer couldn't be complete. It definitely isn't authoritative, but it's something to get you started, in my humble opinion.

First things first, let me briefly comment on "faith" in general. There are two types, I find. The first is that utterly blind faith that is a blessing and curse to those who have it, but it is something that is simply beyond the grasp of most intellectuals (you'd be surprised, though, how much you believe on blind faith! But, that's another story . . .). This is what people usually mean when they define faith as "belief without evidence."

The second type of faith is defined as "trust based on sufficient reason." So, here's something to get you going, at least, in the right direction: is it more likely or not that the Christian God exists? To phrase it in a negative way, (ignoring other religions) does Atheism make sense?

I'd argue no, as would K. The important thing in his response here would be: "In my humble opinion, one needs far greater faith to believe that our universe popped into existence from nothing, than to believe in a creator."

That is important for the second background reason, which as to do with your world-view. One of the things I am constantly telling unbelievers is that you have to evaluate the claims of Christianity on Christian terms. If you do, you'll find that it makes sense beautifully. If you don't, you'll find that it fails miserably (to convince, not in logic alone). Let me put it another way: if the Christian God exists, certain things MUST be true (i.e., the human sin nature, the resurrection of Christ, the authority of Scripture). You need to prepare yourself to accept those terms. If you never will, you will never come to the faith.

I don't know anyone--I'm not saying they don't exist, though--who came to the faith by proving all of the Christian tenants and saying, "Well, it looks like they are right after all!" I don't think you can do that, because many of the Christian tenants are matters of special revelation. Suppose I asked you to prove to me that light traveled 186K mi/s. Well, that's easy enough to do, but suppose I told you to do that, but you were not allowed to use any kind of measuring instruments whatsoever. Oh, yes, and math is a no-no, too. You obviously can't do it, because it is precisely these things that yield the proof!

Similarly, the ultimate revelation of the Christian God is Jesus Christ. We can study Him very intellectually, and many have done so. But, unless we are willing to accept the fact that He might be God Incarnate--a thing no empirical science can do--then you will never experience Him AS God Incarnate. Don't read any circularity into this--it is just the same as the above mentioned example.

General revelation, that is, the way the heavens work, can tell us a lot about God. In fact, to me they are decisive proof that He exists. But, if you state a priori that no God is possible, then all the proof in the world will do nothing for you. There can never be sufficient evidence on which to base your trust.

That said, I close with this: the author of Hebrews tells us in Hebrews 11:6:

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who cmes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (NASB)

Bearing this in mind, here are a few truths:

1) God opposes the proud (James 4:6)
2) God will reveal Himself if you seek Him (Matthew 7:7-11)
3) God loves you (John 3:16)

Now, if these are true, then God wants to reveal Himself to you more than you want to meet Him! So, what's stopping the process? I'd submit that it's you. Chances are, you want to meet God on your terms--you want to meet a God that you can understand. I can sympathize with you on not being able to grasp onto a blind faith, but remember that Jesus said we should all be like little children if we want to inherit the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:13-16).

How do you experience God? I'll let God Himself answer that: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and will give you rest." (Matt. 11:27, see Matthew 11:25-30). How do you do that? [Bible]Romans 10:9-10 tells us plainly:

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved: for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

You want to meet God? Come to Him on His terms. You humble yourself, you accept that the Christian world-view might be right, you accept that you have sinned before this Almighty God, but that this Almighty God has paid the price for you when He let His Son die on a cross and raised Him three days later; you say along with the father of the demon possessed boy when he said in Mark 9:24: "I do believe: help my unbelief."

Do that, and God will meet you where you are. I can tell you it's true from experience, as can anyone else on this board. The writers of the NT can tell you its true because they saw it with their own eyes (1 John 1:1-5). Here are eye witnesses of the resurrected Christ telling you that you can know God. You just have to ask in humility.

God bless

[Kurieuo]

I have noticed many people talking about who made God if God created the Universe.

This question is based on an unsound and faulty premise which either leads to absurdities or is self-refuting (depending on which way you go). As mentioned earlier, I am writing a response which will provide more details, and I promise to link to it from this thread when posted.

Here is one response I promised: Who Made God? - http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?p=327

Kurieuo.

[RGeeB]

Hey Bobby

Believing in God may or may not make life easier for you. One thing is for sure - If you trust and obey Him, He will be on your side in life - that is His eternal promise.

Another thing, you can have the best hope for the future, even beyond death. An eternity with God in heaven is far beyond any earthly pleasures that can be described.

The Bible says that God promises to find you, if you try to find Him.

[Anonymous]

I am 20 yrs. old, and I want to know the truth about God's existence. As a matter of fact, it almost means the difference between life and death for me. I have come to the conclusion that the Universe does not necessarily need God to exist. Therefore, a necessary proof for Gods existence cannot be shown. I will give an explanation as to why. It is not important to read this part to understand my question though. If you want to skip it, scroll down to summery.
Religious people are more than willing to accept an all-powerfull, eternal being. They never seem willing to accept, that this Universe may be eternal and all that is. Why is this so? When all other unimportant reasons are eleminated, it seems to comes down to one reason: Faith. Something that I do not hold in my possesion. Since, I do not have faith and becuase I cannot simply fake faith, I am doomed to never be able to use this excuse. (I really do believe that I am doomed for not being Christian)
I have noticed many people talking about who made God if God created the Universe. That question though does not prove Gods' inexistence or existence even when answered, because it reults in an infinite progression of creators. God made the Universe. Someone made God. Someone made that someone and so on and so forth. Something must have come from nothing. I and I believe everyone else has to except that. Even if there were an infinite number of creators, they as a group would be something that came from nothing.
It seems as if all life in the Universe can be explained with the simple rules of physics. The body is very much like a machine with many nerves running to a brain. The ideas of artificial intelligence are almost tangible. We do not need a soul to have feeling, percieve color, or to talk about God. That's what the brain is for. Which brings me to one of my most important question of all, what is the purpose of the soul if our brain accounts for all actions of body and mind? I fear that question will never be ansered, but I am still not hopeless.
Summery
1. The Universe could have existed forever without God.
2. Something must have come from nothing
3. Life can be explained through physical laws.

Now, to my plight. If God does not exist, for what reason do I have to live. I could simply kill myself and forget about everything that ever happened. My life would only hold the value that I arbitrarily set for it. If God exists though and he created me for the purpose of love, then he will be angry for my action. (I hope he would be merciful) I do not enjoy life though. I cannot decide what I want to do. I get poor grades in college, because I'm too preoccupied with other things. Life just seems like a hardship; Something I have to bare. If I found out God didn't exist for absolute certainty, I would kill myself. I don't know and that's the only reason I live. Since God cannot be a proven certainty, I am only asking that those who believe will tell me about how I can experience God. If I experience him, then I may aquire faith. With faith I can escape from my plight.
David Hume a declared agnostic was asked by a friend before his death about wether or not he believed in life after death. Hist answere was, "It is possible that a knob of coal placed upon the fire will not burn."
Thank you for using your most valueable resource (time) to at least read my question.

There's some serious equivocation on the word "eternal" there, since as far as I'm aware, most people are pretty certain that time had a beginning, regardless of God's intervention.

First, I'd like to address your issue of Faith. I've heard this brought up more than once by others, people saying "I can't help that I don't have faith," or whatnot. Quite simply, it often comes down to a matter of you thinking that God, in whatever form, would be the most logical conclusion, based on both empiricism and personal experience. Faith isn't some weird, fuzzy trait that you have to be born with... it's merely a belief in a concept that can't be undeniably proven. I have faith that when I walk outside, I'm not going to fly up into the sky. I have faith that I'm more likely to live tomorrow than to die. Why? Not because of some random inkling, but because of experience.

Your mention of Artifical Intelligence and a Soul... quite the interesting Enigma eh? I think you're grossly overestimating the power of humans in those areas though. Artifical Intelligence is still very, very weak, and no programming has been able to create something that is self-aware. At some point, we may create something that seems to be self-aware, and then get into an even deeper hole: could there be nothing more to self-awareness than intellect? Could our own self-awareness be merely an illusion?

There have been some interesting experiments done, where for instance, a person's brain is stimulated to cause a movement of the arm. The arm moves, and the subject always replies that 'I didn't do that' or whatnot. Does that necessarily say anything about the nature of the brain? No, that can be accounted for by many models of intellect, 'mind,' etc...but I think it's just an illustration of how deep the rabbit hole goes.

On a random tangent: your three points in your summary need to be examined a bit more thoroughly...
1)True.
2)Contradicts 1? If the Universe could exist eternally (barring the time problem mentioned above,) why must there at some point exist 'nothing,' 'before' the universe?
3)The existence of natural law does very little to further either side of the debate, in my mind. The atheist says "Look, we can explain this naturally!" and the creationist says "Just more evidence that God is smart!"


Now I'll get to the important part. You. And how this all relates to you.

Quite simply, I'm in a similar boat as you: the more or less agnostic camp.

And I actually was forced to drop out of college my first year, last year. But that's neither here nor there.

Faith may be your answer, but it is not the only answer. Surely there are things you enjoy? People you like? Surely you've seen beauty in art, in music, in nature, in others, in yourself?

Is this not reason enough to keep on with this life thing? If life might only have the value you set for it, set it high! And besides, the value of your living may not only be in yourself, but in the people around you, and how you affect their lives.

Good luck to you, in wherever your search for truth may take you, and however the adventure of life sees you.

[Prodigal Son]

sweetie, something can't come from nothing. that is the most ludicrous statement/assumption of all. especially in the world of physics, it makes no sense.

if you want to know the real truth about God and physics, you might want to start here: The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel

and: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/ ... osmos.html


like you, i once thought life wasn't worth living. i tried killing myself four times!

the way God came into my life? i dropped down on my knees (shortly after seeing the Passion) and begged that he enter my life. i told him that i didn't want to live without him anymore and that i wanted to change. it worked! i never wanted to listen to everyone that told me to do it, but it worked!

the peace i've experience since has been unimagineable.

believe me, God exists. if you keep searching, you will find him.

I hope things get better.

[Felgar]

I'm reminded of a Geoff Moore song, Evolution Redefined:

...

It takes a lot of faith to say we're accidents of nature,
but I believe we are the work of a loving Creator.
Now you can wait a million years and hope that nature does it's part,
but it only takes a moment, for God to change a heart.
That's why...

I believe in evolution,
changing of the heart, renewing of the mind.
It's the only true solution,
God is always working, changing lives (changing lives),
It's evolution redefined.

I used to trust in natural selection,
my survival was all I could see.
My evolving to perfection,
Started when God rescued me.

...

[Prodigal Son]

that's beautiful! thanks for posting that!