Did the Early Church Leaders speak of God as Trinity?

[B. W.]

Post One

Did the Early Church Leaders speak of God's oneness as Trinity?

There has been much discussion on this topic on this Forum. The Early Church fathers from the 1'st thru 4'th Century had much to say that proves that they taught and knew of God's Oneness as a Trinity of Being. Not Three different Gods but rather, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were persons of Godhead's divine essence. Just as they were taught, primarily, at the time from the Old Testament and letters of the Apostles that came to them.

Many folks, debate and declare that the early Church Fathers did not teach the Orthodox Doctrine of the Divine Trinity which has been define as Follows: The doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature". A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is. Definition from Wikipedia link here

Therefore, I will be posting what the Early Church Fathers said on this very subject as well as the dual Nature of Jesus Christ - both man and God - reconciled...

You can read these for yourselves at the following Link where all the quotes mentioned came from: Early Church Writings at this link: Early Church Writings Link

Let’s Begin:


The Epistle of Barnabas

1'st Century

You have in this also [an indication of] the glory of Jesus; for in Him and to Him are all things. Colossians 1:16

...What, again, says Moses to Jesus (Joshua) the son of Nave, when he gave him this name, as being a prophet, with this view only, that all the people might hear that the Father would reveal all things concerning His Son Jesus to the son of Nave?

This name then being given him when he sent him to spy out the land, he said, Take a book into your hands, and write what the Lord declares, that the Son of God will in the last days cut off from the roots all the house of Amalek. Exodus 17:14 Behold again: Jesus who was manifested, both by type and in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16 is not the Son of man, but the Son of God.

Since, therefore, they were to say that Christ was the son of David, fearing and understanding the error of the wicked, he says, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And again, thus says Isaiah, The Lord said to Christ, my Lord, whose right hand I have holden, that the nations should yield obedience before Him; and I will break in pieces the strength of kings. Isaiah 45:1 Behold how David calls Him Lord and the Son of God.

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The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

1'st Century

Greeting

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Chapter 9.

Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed on from this to you, having false doctrine, whom you did not allow to sow among you, but stopped your ears, that you might not receive those things which were sown by them, as being stones 1 Peter 2:5 of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, John 12:32 making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, while your faith was the means by which you ascended, and your love the way which led up to God. You, therefore, as well as all your fellow-travellers, are God-bearers, temple-bearers, Christ-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ, in whom also I exult that I have been thought worthy, by means of this Epistle, to converse and rejoice with you, because with respect to your Christian life you love nothing but God only.

Chapter 18.

Let my spirit be counted as nothing for the sake of the cross, which is a stumbling-block 1 Corinthians 1:18 to those that do not believe, but to us salvation and life eternal. Where is the wise man? Where the disputer? 1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the boasting of those who are styled prudent? For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

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The Martyrdom of Ignatius

Chapter 2. Ignatius is condemned by Trajan

For Trajan, in the ninth year of his reign, being lifted up [with pride], after the victory he had gained over the Scythians and Dacians, and many other nations, and thinking that the religious body of the Christians were yet wanting to complete the subjugation of all things to himself, and [thereupon] threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to worship dæmons, as did all other nations, thus compelled all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die.

Wherefore the noble soldier of Christ [Ignatius], being in fear for the Church of the Antiochians, was, in accordance with his own desire, brought before Trajan, who was at that time staying at Antioch, but was in haste [to set forth] against Armenia and the Parthians. And when he was set before the Emperor Trajan, [that prince] said unto him, Who are you, wicked wretch, who settest yourself to transgress our commands, and persuadest others to do the same, so that they should miserably perish?

Ignatius replied, No one ought to call Theophorus wicked; for all evil spirits have departed from the servants of God. But if, because I am an enemy to these [spirits], you call me wicked in respect to them, I quite agree with you; for inasmuch as I have Christ the King of heaven [within me], I destroy all the devices of these [evil spirits].

Trajan answered, And who is Theophorus?

Ignatius replied, He who has Christ within his breast.

Trajan said, Do we not then seem to you to have the gods in our mind, whose assistance we enjoy in fighting against our enemies?

Ignatius answered, You are in error when you call the demons of the nations gods. For there is but one God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that are in them; and one Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, whose kingdom may I enjoy.

Trajan said, Do you mean Him who was crucified under Pontius Pilate?

Ignatius replied, I mean Him who crucified my sin, with him who was the inventor of it, and who has condemned [and cast down] all the deceit and malice of the devil under the feet of those who carry Him in their heart.

Trajan said, Do you then carry within you Him that was crucified?

Ignatius replied, Truly so; for it is written, 'I will dwell in them, and walk in them.' 2 Corinthians 6:16

Then Trajan pronounced sentence as follows: We command that Ignatius, who affirms that he carries about within him Him that was crucified, be bound by soldiers, and carried to the great [city] Rome, there to be devoured by the beasts, for the gratification of the people.

When the holy martyr heard this sentence, he cried out with joy, I thank you, O Lord, that You have vouchsafed to honour me with a perfect love towards You, and have made me to be bound with iron chains, like Your Apostle Paul. Having spoken thus, he then, with delight, clasped the chains about him; and when he had first prayed for the Church, and commended it with tears to the Lord, he was hurried away by the savage cruelty of the soldiers, like a distinguished ram the leader of a goodly flock, that he might be carried to Rome, there to furnish food to the bloodthirsty beasts.

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The Second Apology of St. Justin Martyr

1'st Century

Chapter 13. How the Word has been in all men

For I myself, when I discovered tile wicked disguise which the evil spirits had thrown around the divine doctrines of the Christians, to turn aside others from joining them, laughed both at those who framed these falsehoods, and at the disguise itself and at popular opinion and I confess that I both boast and with all my strength strive to be found a Christian; not because the teachings of Plato are different from those of Christ, but because they are not in all respects similar, as neither are those of the others, Stoics, and poets, and historians. For each man spoke well in proportion to the share he had of the spermatic word, seeing what was related to it. But they who contradict themselves on the more important points appear not to have possessed the heavenly wisdom, and the knowledge which cannot be spoken against. Whatever things were rightly said among all men, are the property of us Christians.

For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, (John 1:1-3) since also He became man for our sakes, that becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. For all the writers were able to see realities darkly through the sowing of the implanted word that was in them. For the seed and imitation impacted according to capacity is one thing, and quite another is the thing itself, of which there is the participation and imitation according to the grace which is from Him.

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Dialogue with Trypho - Justin Martyr

Chapter 48. Before the divinity of Christ is proved, he [Trypho] demands that it be settled that He is Christ

Trypho: We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man, this [assertion] appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish.

Justin: I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the [requirements] of God, but [ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Isaiah 29:13 Now assuredly, Trypho, [the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin.

But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election.

For there are some, my friends, of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.

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The First Apology of St. Justin Martyr

1'st Century

Chapter 13.

What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him.

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.


Chapter 61. Christian baptism

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. John 3:5 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. Isaiah 1:16-20

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.


St Clement of Rome - Letter to the Corinthians

2'nd Century

Chapter 8.

The ministers of the grace of God have, by the Holy Spirit, spoken of repentance; and the Lord of all things has himself declared with an oath regarding it, As I live, says the Lord, I desire not the death of the sinner, but rather his repentance; Ezekiel 33:11 adding, moreover, this gracious declaration, Repent, O house of Israel, of your iniquity. Ezekiel 18:30 Say to the children of my people, Though your sins reach from earth to heaven, and though they be redder Isaiah 1:18 than scarlet, and blacker than sack-cloth, yet if you turn to me with your whole heart, and say, Father! I will listen to you, as to a holy people. And in another place He speaks thus: Wash you and become clean; put away the wickedness of your souls from before my eyes; cease from your evil ways, and learn to do well; seek out judgment, deliver the oppressed, judge the fatherless, and see that justice is done to the widow; and come, and let us reason together. He declares, Though your sins be like crimson, I will make them white as snow; though they be like scarlet, I will whiten them like wool. And if you be willing and obey me, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse, and will not hearken unto me, the sword shall devour you, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things. Isaiah 1:16-20 Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established [these declarations].

Chapter 13.

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit says, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness ), being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: Be merciful, that you may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as you do, so shall it be done unto you; as you judge, so shall you be judged; as you are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you. By this precept and by these rules let us establish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word says, On whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and that trembles at my words? Isaiah 66:2


Chapter 46.

Such examples, therefore, brethren, it is right that we should follow; since it is written, Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall [themselves] be made holy. And again, in another place, [the Scripture] says, With a harmless man you shall prove yourself harmless, and with an elect man you shall be elect, and with a perverse man you shall show yourself perverse. Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you?

Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Ephesians 4:4-6

Why do we divide and tear in pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that we are members one of another? Romans 12:5 Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, Woe to that man [by whom offenses come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues.

Chapter 58.

Let us, therefore, flee from the warning threats pronounced by Wisdom on the disobedient, and yield submission to His all-holy and glorious name, that we may stay our trust upon the most hallowed name of His majesty. Receive our counsel, and you shall be without repentance. For, as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost live—both the faith and hope of the elect, he who in lowliness of mind, with instant gentleness, and without repentance has observed the ordinances and appointments given by God— the same shall obtain a place and name in the number of those who are being saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is glory to Him for ever and ever. Amen.


Chapter 64.

May God, who sees all things, and who is the Ruler of all spirits and the Lord of all flesh— who chose our Lord Jesus Christ and us through Him to be a peculiar Titus 2:14 people— grant to every soul that calls upon His glorious and holy name, faith, fear, peace, patience, long-suffering, self-control, purity, and sobriety, to the well-pleasing of His name, through our High Priest and Protector, Jesus Christ, by whom be to Him glory, and majesty, and power, and honour, both now and for evermore. Amen.
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Can you see what there folks were saying? They understood God and some died for their knowing Him. There are many more quotes from these early leaders and these are but a few. So feel free to chime in and add more if you like...

Now on to the 2'nd Century

[B. W.]

Continued - Post Two:

More from 2nd Century

Early Church Writings – 2’nd Century
Early Church Writings Link

Athenagoras

A Plea for the Christians

By Athenagoras the Athenian: 2nd century

Chapter 24. Concerning the Angels and Giants

What need is there, in speaking to you who have searched into every department of knowledge, to mention the poets, or to examine opinions of another kind?

Let it suffice to say thus much. If the poets and philosophers did not acknowledge that there is one God, and concerning these gods were not of opinion, some that they are demons, others that they are matter, and others that they once were men,— there might be some show of reason for our being harassed as we are, since we employ language which makes a distinction between God and matter, and the natures of the two.

For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence—the Father, the Son, the Spirit, because the Son is the Intelligence, Reason, Wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it,..

…and one in particular, which is hostile to God: not that anything is really opposed to God, like strife to friendship, according to Empedocles, and night to day, according to the appearing and disappearing of the stars (for even if anything had placed itself in opposition to God, it would have ceased to exist, its structure being destroyed by the power and might of God), but that to the good that is in God, which belongs of necessity to Him, and co-exists with Him, as colour with body, without which it has no existence (not as being part of it, but as an attendant property co-existing with it, united and blended, just as it is natural for fire to be yellow and the ether dark blue)—to the good that is in God, I say, the spirit which is about matter, who was created by God, just as the other angels were created by Him, and entrusted with the control of matter and the forms of matter, is opposed.

For this is the office of the angels—to exercise providence for God over the things created and ordered by Him; so that God may have the universal and general providence of the whole, while the particular parts are provided for by the angels appointed over them. Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power; and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them by you, and others faithless), so is it among the angels.

Some, free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him.

Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants. And if something has been said by the poets, too, about the giants, be not surprised at this: worldly wisdom and divine differ as much from each other as truth and plausibility: the one is of heaven and the other of earth; and indeed, according to the prince of matter,—

We know we oft speak lies that look like truths.

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Irenaeus - 2nd century

Irenaeus Against Heresies.

Book IV.

Chap. XX. — That One God Formed All Things in the World, by Means of the Word and the Holy Spirit: and That Although He Is to Us in This Life Invisible and Incomprehensible, Nevertheless He Is Not Unknown; Inasmuch as His Works Do Declare Him, and His Word Has Shown That in Many Modes He May Be Seen and Known.

1. As regards His greatness, therefore, it is not possible to know God, for it is impossible that the Father can be measured; but as regards His love (for this it is which leads us to God by His Word), when we obey Him, we do always learn that there is so great a God, and that it is He who by Himself has established, and selected, and adorned, and contains all things; and among the all things, both ourselves and this our world. We also then were made, along with those things which are contained by Him. And this is He of whom the Scripture says, “And God formed man, taking clay of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life.” (Gen 2:7)

It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;” (Gen 1:26) He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.


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Irenaeus Against Heresies.

Book V.

Chap. XVIII. — God the Father and His Word Have Formed All Created Things (Which They Use) by Their Own Power and Wisdom, Not Out of Defect or Ignorance. The Son of God, Who Received All Power from the Father, Would Otherwise Never Have Taken Flesh upon Him.

1. And such or so important a dispensation He did not bring about by means of the creations of others, but by His own; neither by those things which were created out of ignorance and defect, but by those which had their substance from the wisdom and power of His Father. For He was neither unrighteous, so that He should covet the property of another; nor needy, that He could not by His own means impart life to His own, and make use of His own creation for the salvation of man. For indeed the creation could not have sustained Him [on the cross], if He had sent forth [simply by commission] what was the fruit of ignorance and defect. Now we have repeatedly shown that the incarnate Word of God was suspended upon a tree, and even the very heretics do acknowledge that He was crucified. How, then, could the fruit of ignorance and defect sustain Him who contains the knowledge of all things, and is true and perfect? Or how could that creation which was concealed from the Father, and far removed from Him, have sustained His Word? And if this world were made by the angels (it matters not whether we suppose their ignorance or their cognizance of the Supreme God), when the Lord declared, “For I am in the Father, and the Father in Me,” (John 14:11) how could this workmanship of the angels have borne to be burdened at once with the Father and the Son? How, again, could that creation which is beyond the Pleroma have contained Him who contains the entire Pleroma? Inasmuch, then, as all these things are impossible and incapable of proof, that preaching of the Church is alone true [which proclaims] that His own creation bare Him, which subsists by the power, the skill, and the wisdom of God; which is sustained, indeed, after an invisible manner by the Father, but, on the contrary, after a visible manner it bore His Word: and this is the true [Word].

2. For the Father bears the creation and His own Word simultaneously, and the Word borne by the Father grants the Spirit to all as the Father wills.29 To some He gives after the manner of creation what is made;30 but to others [He gives] after the manner of adoption, that is, what is from God, namely generation. thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ; but the Word is through all things, and is Himself the Head of the Church; while the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water, (John 7:39) which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him, and love Him, and who know that “there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.” (Eph 4:6) And to these things does John also, the disciple of the Lord, bear witness, when he speaks thus in the Gospel: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” (John 1:1, etc.) And then he said of the Word Himself: “He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. To His own things He came, and His own people received Him not. However, as many as did receive Him, to these gave He power to become the sons of God, to those that believe in His name.” (John 1:10, etc.) And again, showing the dispensation with regard to His human nature, John said: “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” (John 1:14) And in continuation he says, “And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten by the Father, full of grace and truth.” He thus plainly points out to those willing to hear, that is, to those having ears, that there is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made; and that this world belongs to Him, and was made by Him, according to the Father’s will, and not by angels; nor by apostasy, defect, and ignorance; nor by any power of Prunicus, whom certain of them also call “the Mother;” nor by any other maker of the world ignorant of the Father.

3. For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God: and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He came to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself. “And His own peculiar people did not receive Him,” as Moses declared this very thing among the people: “And thy life shall be hanging before thine eyes, and thou wilt not believe thy life.” (Deut 28:66) Those therefore who did not receive Him did not receive life. “But to as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God.” (John 1:13) For it is He who has power from the Father over all things, since He is the Word of God, and very man, communicating with invisible beings after the manner of the intellect, and appointing a law observable to the outward senses, that all things should continue each in its own order; and He reigns manifestly over things visible and pertaining to men; and brings in just judgment and worthy upon all; as David also, clearly pointing to this, says, “Our God shall openly come, and will not keep silence.” (Psalms 1:3, Psalms 1:4) Then he shows also the judgment which is brought in by Him, saying, “A fire shall burn in His sight, and a strong tempest shall rage round about Him. He shall call upon the heaven from above, and the earth, to judge His people.”

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A Declaration of Faith (St. Gregory Thaumaturgus) 2'nd century

There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is His subsistent Wisdom and Power and Eternal Image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son.

There is one Lord, Only of the Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word, Wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and Power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal.

And there is One Holy Spirit, having His subsistence from God, and being made manifest by the Son, to wit to men: Image of the Son, Perfect Image of the Perfect; Life, the Cause of the living; Holy Fount; Sanctity, the Supplier, or Leader, of Sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father, who is above all and in all, and God the Son, who is through all.

There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything super induced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever.
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There is more these early Church leaders said on this subject. There are many more, from the Eastern Orthodox, that the Western Church has for the most part Forgotten and often ignore completely. I'll be posting more as time permits.

Please use this as a reference for those cultist our uneducated who claim the early Church fathers never taught Jesus was God or that the One God can exist as Trinity...

...or that declare that the doctrine of the Trinity was a 3'rd-4'th Century invention codified by the Nicene Creed. As you can see, the Nicene Creed came from a long tradtion carried form the the Apsotles on down the line and not an invention that cultist need to correct.

Also notice other things these leaders say too, like, their understanding that the Lord makes a choice for human beings, that there is freedom to choose, and human being were fashioned with free agency and not made as puppets upon a string.

[B. W.]

Post Three:

2nd Century

Early Church Writings – 2’nd Century
Early Church Writings Link

I am posting more Gregory Thaumaturgus from the 2’nd Century his entire letter on the Trinity. I ended with his writing in Post Two. It is deep and well thought out… and long…

So Begins…

Gregory Thaumaturgus, Bishop of Neo-Caesareia in Pontus, near successor of the apostles, in his discourse on the Trinity, speaks thus:—

I see in all three essentials— substance, genus, name. We speak of man, servant, curator (curatorem)—man, by reason of substance; servant, by reason of genus or condition; curator, by reason of denomination.

We speak also of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: these, however, are not names which have only supervened at some after period, but they are subsistences.

Again, the denomination of man is not in actual fact a denomination, but a substance common to men, and is the denomination proper to all men. Moreover, names are such as these—Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob: these, I say, are names. But the Divine Persons are names indeed: and the names are still the persons; and the persons then signify that which is and subsists—which is the essence of God.

The name also of the nature signifies subsistence; as if we should speak of the man. All (the persons) are one nature, one essence, one will, and are called the Holy Trinity; and these also are haines subsistent, one nature in three persons, and one genus. But the person of the Son is composite in its oneness (unita est), being one made up of two, that is, of divinity and humanity together, which two constitute one.

Yet the divinity does not consequently receive any increment, but the Trinity remains as it was. Nor does anything new befall the persons even or the names, but these are eternal and without time. No one, however, was sufficient to know these until the Son being made flesh manifested them, saying: Father, I have manifested Your name to men; glorify me also, that they may know me as Your Son. John 17:6 And on the mount the Father spoke, and said, This is my beloved Son. Matthew 3:17 And the same sent His Holy Spirit at the Jordan. And thus it was declared to us that there is an Eternal Trinity in equal honour.

Besides, the generation of the Son by the Father is incomprehensible and ineffable; and because it is spiritual, its investigation becomes impracticable: for a spiritual object can neither be understood nor traced by a corporeal object, for that is far removed from human nature. We men know indeed the generation proper to us, as also that of other objects; but a spiritual matter is above human condition, neither can it in any manner be understood by the minds of men. Spiritual substance can neither perish nor be dissolved; ours, however, as is easy to understand, perishes and is dissolved.

How, indeed, could it be possible for man, who is limited on six sides— by east, west, south, north, deep, and sky— understand a matter which is above the skies, which is beneath the deeps, which stretches beyond the north and south, and which is present in every place, and fills all vacuity?

But if, indeed, we are able to scrutinize spiritual substance, its excellence truly would be undone. Let us consider what is done in our body; and, furthermore, let us see whether it is in our power to ascertain in what manner thoughts are born of the heart, and words of the tongue, and the like.

Now, if we can by no means apprehend things that are done in ourselves, how could it ever be that we should understand the mystery of the uncreated Creator, which goes beyond every mind?

Assuredly, if this mystery were one that could be penetrated by man, the inspired John would by no means have affirmed this: No man has seen God at any time. John 1:18 He then, whom no man has seen at any time,— whom can we reckon Him to resemble, so that thereby we should understand His generation?

And we, indeed, without ambiguity apprehend that our soul dwells in us in union with the body; but still, who has ever seen his own soul?

Who has been able to discern its conjunction with his body?

This one thing is all we know certainly, that there is a soul within us conjoined with the body. Thus, then, we reason and believe that the Word is begotten by the Father, albeit we neither possess nor know the clear rationale of the fact. The Word Himself is before every creature— eternal from the Eternal, like spring from spring, and light from light.

The vocable Word, indeed, belongs to those three genera of words which are named in Scripture, and which are not substantial,— namely, the word conceived, the word uttered, and the word articulated.

The word conceived, certainly, is not substantial.

The word uttered, again, is that voice which the prophets hear from God, or the prophetic speech itself; and even this is not substantial.

And, lastly, the word articulated is the speech of man formed forth in air (aere efformatus), composed of terms, which also is not substantial. But the Word of God is substantial, endowed with an exalted and enduring nature, and is eternal with Himself, and is inseparable from Him, and can never fall away, but shall remain in an everlasting union.

This Word created heaven and earth, and in Him were all things made. He is the arm and the power of God, never to be separated from the Father, in virtue of an indivisible nature, and, together with the Father, He is without beginning.

This Word took our substance of the Virgin Mary; and in so far as He is spiritual indeed, He is indivisibly equal with the Father; but in so far as He is corporeal, He is in like manner inseparably equal with us. And, again, in so far as He is spiritual, He supplies in the same equality (aequiparat) the Holy Spirit, inseparably and without limit.

Neither were there two natures, but only one nature of the Holy Trinity before the incarnation of the Word, the Son; and the nature of the Trinity remained one also after the incarnation of the Son. But if any one, moreover, believes that any increment has been given to the Trinity by reason of the assumption of humanity by the Word, he is an alien from us, and from the ministry of the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

This is the perfect, holy, Apostolic faith of the holy God. Praise to the Holy Trinity for ever through the ages of the ages.

Amen
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Please note the underlined part I added in and then go to Isaiah 53:1-12 and see who the arm of YHWH is...

[B. W.]

Here are a few more. One is of interest in the way Clement of Alexandria (not the other Clement form Rome) prayed in the Educator or Instructor. Next are some quotes from Irenaeus written probably somewhere mid range around 120 or 150 – AD. The date is debated but nevertheless it was written before Clement of Alexandria’s time…

Note the similarities concerning the Word and the new details each pose on early Christian doctrine concerning the Godhead and who Jesus is.

Also note that the scripture references were added by modern authors. It was the tremendous amount of such quotes that helped shed light on authentic of earliest NT and OT manuscripts used in our modern bibles.

Begin:

Early Church Writings – 2st and early 3’rd Century
Early Church Writings Link

St Clement of Alexandria

The Instructor (Book III)
May have been written around 202 AD

Such is the Word, such is the Instructor, the Creator of the world and of man: and of Himself, now the world's Instructor, by whose command we and the universe subsist, and await judgment. For it is not he who brings a stealthy vocal word to men, as Bacchylidis says, who shall be the Word of Wisdom; but the blameless, the pure, and faultless sons of God, according to Paul, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, to shine as lights in the world.

All that remains therefore now, in such a celebration of the Word as this, is that we address to the Word our prayer.

Prayer to the Pædagogus (Educator or Instructor)

Be gracious, O Instructor, to us Your children, Father, Charioteer of Israel, Son and Father, both in One, O Lord.

Grant to us who obey Your precepts, that we may perfect the likeness of the image, and with all our power know Him who is the good God and not a harsh judge.

And You Yourself cause all of us who have our conversation in Your peace, who have been translated into Your commonwealth, having sailed tranquilly over the billows of sin, may be wafted in calm by Your Holy Spirit, by the ineffable wisdom, by night and day to the perfect day; and giving thanks may praise, and praising thank the Alone Father and Son, Son and Father, the Son, Instructor and Teacher, with the Holy Spirit, all in One, in whom is all, for whom all is One, for whom is eternity, whose members we all are, whose glory the æons are; for the All-good, All-lovely, All-wise, All-just One. To whom be glory both now and forever. Amen.

And since the Instructor, by translating us into His Church, has united us to Himself, the teaching and all-surveying Word, it were right that, having got to this point, we should offer to the Lord the reward of due thanksgiving— praise suitable to His fair instruction.


+++++++++++++


Irenaeus

Against Heresies
(Book III, Chapter 19)

Jesus Christ was not a mere man, begotten from Joseph in the ordinary course of nature, but was very God, begotten of the Father most high, and very man, born of the Virgin.

1. But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36

But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; Romans 6:23 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life.

To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: I said, You are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men. He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.

But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that we might receive the adoption of sons?


++++++++++++++

Irenaeus

Against Heresies
(Book III, Chapter 20)

3. On this account, therefore, the Lord Himself, who is Emmanuel from the Virgin, Isaiah 7:4 is the sign of our salvation, since it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: For I know that there dwells in my flesh no good thing, Romans 7:18 showing that the good thing of our salvation is not from us, but from God. And again: Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24

Then he introduces the Deliverer, [saying,] The grace of Jesus Christ our Lord. And Isaiah declares this also, [when he says:] Be strengthened, you hands that hang down, and you feeble knees; be encouraged, you feeble-minded; be comforted, fear not: behold, our God has given judgment with retribution, and shall recompense: He will come Himself, and will save us. Isaiah 25:3 Here we see, that not by ourselves, but by the help of God, we must be saved.

4. Again, that it should not be a mere man who should save us, nor [one] without flesh— for the angels are without flesh— [the same prophet] announced, saying: Neither an elder, nor angel, but the Lord Himself will save them because He loves them, and will spare them: He will Himself set them free. Isaiah 63:9

And that He should Himself become very man, visible, when He should be the Word giving salvation, Isaiah again says: Behold, city of Zion: your eyes shall see our salvation. Isaiah 33:20 And that it was not a mere man who died for us, Isaiah says: And the holy Lord remembered His dead Israel, who had slept in the land of sepulture; and He came down to preach His salvation to them, that He might save them.

And Amos (Micah) the prophet declares the same: He will turn again, and will have compassion upon us: He will destroy our iniquities, and will cast our sins into the depths of the sea. Micah 7:9

And again, specifying the place of His advent, he says: The Lord has spoken from Zion, and He has uttered His voice from Jerusalem. Joel 3:16; Amos 1:2 And that it is from that region which is towards the south of the inheritance of Judah that the Son of God shall come, who is God, and who was from Bethlehem, where the Lord was born [and] will send out His praise through all the earth, thus says the prophet Habakkuk: God shall come from the south, and the Holy One from Mount Effrem.

His power covered the heavens over, and the earth is full of His praise. Before His face shall go forth the Word, and His feet shall advance in the plains. Thus he indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was [to take place] in Bethlehem, and from Mount Effrem which is towards the south of the inheritance, and that [He is] man. For he says, His feet shall advance in the plains: and this is an indication proper to man.
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Please feel free to comment and discuss... on this rich history

[PaulSacramento]

The the view that Father, Son and HS were of the same nature has been around since the late 1st century is not really debated that much, other than those that don't know the church history.
The issue is that anti-trinitarians would simply point out that they were wrong.

[B. W.]

The the view that Father, Son and HS were of the same nature has been around since the late 1st century is not really debated that much, other than those that don't know the church history.
The issue is that anti-trinitarians would simply point out that they were wrong.

Yes, that is true Paul. I would like to post these for anyone's future reference who encounters such arguments. I have heard cultist say that St Clement of Alexandria fabricated the doctrine of the Trinity and then go on to show his slide into Christian mysticism and his blending of Greek philosophy into the theology.

Irenaeus and others came before him and I posted what they said, therefore, their argument holds no water.

St Clement of Alexandria's writings are different nevertheless and one should grasp that that he actually countered the popular Gnostic notions of is day not mix them into Christian thought. He has quotes that show this.

Such as this:

Fragments (Clement of Alexandria)

III.— Comments on the First Epistle of John.

Chap. i. 1. That which was from the beginning; which we have seen with our eyes; which we have heard.

Following the Gospel according to John, and in accordance with it, this Epistle also contains the spiritual principle.

What therefore he says, from the beginning, the Presbyter explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, That which was from the beginning, he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, In the beginning was the Word. But by the expression, we have seen with our eyes, he signifies the Lord's presence in the flesh, and our hands have handled, he says, of the Word of life. He means not only His flesh, but the virtues of the Son, like the sunbeam which penetrates to the lowest places—this sunbeam coming in the flesh became palpable to the disciples. It is accordingly related in traditions, that John, touching the outward body itself, sent his hand deep down into it, and that the solidity of the flesh offered no obstacle, but gave way to the hand of the disciple.

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[ChristianJackson]

Here are a few more. One is of interest in the way Clement of Alexandria (not the other Clement form Rome) prayed in the Educator or Instructor. Next are some quotes from Irenaeus written probably somewhere mid range around 120 or 150 – AD. The date is debated but nevertheless it was written before Clement of Alexandria’s time…

Note the similarities concerning the Word and the new details each pose on early Christian doctrine concerning the Godhead and who Jesus is.

Also note that the scripture references were added by modern authors. It was the tremendous amount of such quotes that helped shed light on authentic of earliest NT and OT manuscripts used in our modern bibles.

Begin:

Early Church Writings – 2st and early 3’rd Century
Early Church Writings Link

St Clement of Alexandria

The Instructor (Book III)
May have been written around 202 AD

Such is the Word, such is the Instructor, the Creator of the world and of man: and of Himself, now the world's Instructor, by whose command we and the universe subsist, and await judgment. For it is not he who brings a stealthy vocal word to men, as Bacchylidis says, who shall be the Word of Wisdom; but the blameless, the pure, and faultless sons of God, according to Paul, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, to shine as lights in the world.

All that remains therefore now, in such a celebration of the Word as this, is that we address to the Word our prayer.

Prayer to the Pædagogus (Educator or Instructor)

Be gracious, O Instructor, to us Your children, Father, Charioteer of Israel, Son and Father, both in One, O Lord.

Grant to us who obey Your precepts, that we may perfect the likeness of the image, and with all our power know Him who is the good God and not a harsh judge.

And You Yourself cause all of us who have our conversation in Your peace, who have been translated into Your commonwealth, having sailed tranquilly over the billows of sin, may be wafted in calm by Your Holy Spirit, by the ineffable wisdom, by night and day to the perfect day; and giving thanks may praise, and praising thank the Alone Father and Son, Son and Father, the Son, Instructor and Teacher, with the Holy Spirit, all in One, in whom is all, for whom all is One, for whom is eternity, whose members we all are, whose glory the æons are; for the All-good, All-lovely, All-wise, All-just One. To whom be glory both now and forever. Amen.

And since the Instructor, by translating us into His Church, has united us to Himself, the teaching and all-surveying Word, it were right that, having got to this point, we should offer to the Lord the reward of due thanksgiving— praise suitable to His fair instruction.


+++++++++++++


Irenaeus

Against Heresies
(Book III, Chapter 19)

Jesus Christ was not a mere man, begotten from Joseph in the ordinary course of nature, but was very God, begotten of the Father most high, and very man, born of the Virgin.

1. But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36

But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; Romans 6:23 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life.

To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: I said, You are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men. He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.

But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that we might receive the adoption of sons?


++++++++++++++

Irenaeus

Against Heresies
(Book III, Chapter 20)

3. On this account, therefore, the Lord Himself, who is Emmanuel from the Virgin, Isaiah 7:4 is the sign of our salvation, since it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: For I know that there dwells in my flesh no good thing, Romans 7:18 showing that the good thing of our salvation is not from us, but from God. And again: Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24

Then he introduces the Deliverer, [saying,] The grace of Jesus Christ our Lord. And Isaiah declares this also, [when he says:] Be strengthened, you hands that hang down, and you feeble knees; be encouraged, you feeble-minded; be comforted, fear not: behold, our God has given judgment with retribution, and shall recompense: He will come Himself, and will save us. Isaiah 25:3 Here we see, that not by ourselves, but by the help of God, we must be saved.

4. Again, that it should not be a mere man who should save us, nor [one] without flesh— for the angels are without flesh— [the same prophet] announced, saying: Neither an elder, nor angel, but the Lord Himself will save them because He loves them, and will spare them: He will Himself set them free. Isaiah 63:9

And that He should Himself become very man, visible, when He should be the Word giving salvation, Isaiah again says: Behold, city of Zion: your eyes shall see our salvation. Isaiah 33:20 And that it was not a mere man who died for us, Isaiah says: And the holy Lord remembered His dead Israel, who had slept in the land of sepulture; and He came down to preach His salvation to them, that He might save them.

And Amos (Micah) the prophet declares the same: He will turn again, and will have compassion upon us: He will destroy our iniquities, and will cast our sins into the depths of the sea. Micah 7:9

And again, specifying the place of His advent, he says: The Lord has spoken from Zion, and He has uttered His voice from Jerusalem. Joel 3:16; Amos 1:2 And that it is from that region which is towards the south of the inheritance of Judah that the Son of God shall come, who is God, and who was from Bethlehem, where the Lord was born [and] will send out His praise through all the earth, thus says the prophet Habakkuk: God shall come from the south, and the Holy One from Mount Effrem.

His power covered the heavens over, and the earth is full of His praise. Before His face shall go forth the Word, and His feet shall advance in the plains. Thus he indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was [to take place] in Bethlehem, and from Mount Effrem which is towards the south of the inheritance, and that [He is] man. For he says, His feet shall advance in the plains: and this is an indication proper to man.
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Please feel free to comment and discuss... on this rich history

Very hard to comment.. It is ageless debate which has no ending at all..

[vanquish29]

thank you for supplying this information you did a great job putting this all together and for the love of christ and his deity

[vanquish29]

i like the way you put all of this together my approach is a little different but the same that theres only one God in 3 persons, heres my take on the subject i hope you enjoy .


i would like you to refute all of the quotes that i put up that say that the trinity is false, this is there defense against the trinity.







Sources Misquoted
A favourite quote in regular use in Watchtower publications is:

""The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7


Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethic, James Hastings, Trinity, p.461 "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."-Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics. (ti pp. 6-7)

The Triune God, Edward Fortman "Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."" (ti p.6)


e Encyclopedia Americana "The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be 'beyond the grasp of human reason." (ti p.4)

New Catholic Encyclopedia - p.306 "And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "And the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."" (ti p.6)

History of the Trinity

The Watchtower misconstrue development of the Trinity when giving the impression it was not believed by early Christians, but introduced centuries later by Constantine.

"Another fabrication, concocted centuries later, is the doctrine of the so-called holy Trinity." Watchtower 2006 Dec 1 p.6

"Also, whereas several Eastern churches were inclined to follow Arius, who denied the Trinity doctrine, Rome quickly adopted this pagan idea of a triune god. On both of these matters, Emperor Constantine came out in favor of Rome. This he did by making a Sunday observance law in 321 C.E. and by imposing the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. He fused apostate Christianity with the pagan Roman cult and made this "universal" or "catholic" form of worship the state religion." Watchtower 1983 Sep 15 pp.7-8


Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."
Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7









This passage is strongly misleading. After reading the following quotes from the Ante-Nicene Fathers, it is quite clear early Christians taught Jesus was everlasting and God. The word Trinity and its formulation was in development at least from the 2nd century, not the 4th century under Constantine.






Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is “other than the God who made all things.” He said that Jesus was inferior to God and “never did anything except what the Creator…willed him to do and say.”

Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the “One true and only God,” who is “supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.”

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence “a creature” but called God “the uncreated and imperishable and only true God.” He said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father” but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: “The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent.” He also said: “There was a time when the Son was not….Before all things, God was alone.” (The word “tri'as” appears in its Latin form of “trinitas” in Tertullian. While these words do translate to “Trinity,” this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the doctrine of the Trinity.)

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is “the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all,” who “had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him….But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before,” such as the created prehuman Jesus.

Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that “the Father and Son are two substances…two things as to their essence,” and that “compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.”

The testimony of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown for several centuries after biblical times. Thus, those who believe in the Trinity are not “holding God in accurate knowledge.”

Soon, when God brings this present wicked system of things to its end, Trinitarian Christendom will be called to account. And she will be judged adversely for her God-dishonoring actions and doctrines. By honoring God as supreme and worshiping him on his terms, Jehovah's Witnesses can avoid the judgment that he will soon bring on apostate Christendom.

So says the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the official organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses subscribe to Arianism, a belief that Jesus Christ is not fully God (as the doctrine of the Trinity maintains) but is rather a created being, made of a different substance from that of the eternal, uncreated substance of God the Father.








i would like you to refute all of the quotes that i put up that say that the trinity is false, this is there defense against the trinity, im a firm believer on the deity of Jesus and the trinity heres my rebuttal to the false quotes concerning the trinity.

Quotes from the Ante Nicene Fathers
Justin Martyr - 150 AD
"nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son, who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself." - First Apology ch. 63 ANTE Vol 1 p.352


Tatian the Syrian - 170 AD
"We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." - Address to the Greeks, ch. 21 ANTE Vol 2 p.149


Melito of Sardis - 160 - 177 AD
"The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages." Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13


Clement of Alexandria - 190 AD
"I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." - Stromata, Book V ch. 14 ANTE Vol.2 p.970


Tertullian - c. 205 AD
"The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25"The Son of God is identical with God. The Spirit of God is God." - Against Praxeas ch.26






You've seen the evidence for yourself. What do you think?

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Justin Martyr? Justin says that “God begat before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power proceeding from Himself, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him.” This squares precisely with the Nicene Creed, which declares God the Son to be “begotten, not made.” Justin explains further that “this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father,” and that the Son was “begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided,” which means that the Son is begotten from the very same essence which the Father himself possesses - not dividing the Godhead into parts, but rather allowing each divine person a full sharing in the Godhead - which is exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity maintains.

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Irenaeus? Irenaeus' teaching that “the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God, since he who is born of God is God, and in this way, according to His being and power and essence, one God is demonstrated: but according to the economy of our salvation, there is both Father and Son,” couldn't be more Trinitarian. Moreover, Irenaeus distinguishes the Son and the Holy Spirit from created beings when he says, “The Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father; and that Wisdom also, which is the Spirit, was present with Him, anterior to all creation….There is therefore one God, who by the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all things.” So, according to Irenaeus, the Son and the Spirit are co-eternal with the Father, just like the doctrine of the Trinity says.

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Clement of Alexandria? Clement calls Jesus “the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe” as well as “God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father's will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father's right hand, and with the form of God is God.” And Clement is decidedly adamant that “the Son of God, being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated.” Jesus, according to Clement, wasn't created, but “existed always, without beginning.” Rather than holding Jesus to be an inferior, created being, Clement clearly teaches that Jesus is “co-eternal” and “co-existent with the Father.” Isn't this exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches?

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Tertullian? On the contrary, Tertullian loudly proclaims, “Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other.” He continues, “All are of One, by unity of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God.” He finishes, “All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in, the Persons of the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith,” and, “I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable Persons.” To reproduce here all that Tertullian says in support of the Trinity would probably take up another page or two. Suffice it to say that in his declaration, “The Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God,” we have a nice, simply-rendered summary of the Trinity doctrine.

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Hippolytus? Hippolytus says, “The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God. Now the world was made from nothing; wherefore it is not God.” So Hippolytus, too, sets the Logos of God, a.k.a. Jesus, apart from all creation and all created beings. He further declares of Jesus that “by nature He is God,” and that Jesus, “who was co-existent with His Father before all time, and before the foundation of the world, always had the glory proper to Godhead.” According to Hippolytus, Jesus “was in essential being with His Father” and “is co-eternal with His Father,” just as the doctrine of the Trinity says. And, with regard to the Trinity as a whole, Hippolytus says, “We cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit,” and, “Whosoever omits any one of these, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.” Clearly, Hippolytus is a Trinitarian.

Was the Trinity “unknown” to Origen? Origen teaches, “God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.” Likewise, Origen says, “We have been able to find no statement in holy Scripture in which the Holy Spirit could be said to be made or created.” He therefore concludes that “all things which exist were made by God, and that there was nothing which was not made, save the nature of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,” and that “the Father generates an uncreated Son, and brings forth a Holy Spirit, not as if He had no previous existence, but because the Father is the origin and source of the Son or Holy Spirit, and no anteriority or posteriority can be understood as existing in them.” Accordingly, “the Holy Spirit is reckoned in the Unity of the Trinity along with the unchangeable Father and His Son.” In all of Origen's teachings we have, once again, the doctrine of the Trinity proclaimed loud and clear.

So…was the Trinity “unknown” to the early Church Fathers, as the Watchtower would have us believe?

Answer: Absolutely NOT!

The truth is that every one of the Church Fathers cited by the Watchtower was a staunch defender of Trinitarian doctrine! and the doctrine of the trinity is true.


heres the source its very long but very good to read if you have the time the jehovah witness misquote early church fathers about the trinity
http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id247.htm


heres a youtube video on the defense of the trinity vs jehovah witness doctrine or oneness doctrine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB4Ltvh9Cb0


heres another in depth video by scholars about the trinity vs oneness doctrine very in depth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt0T2DCP528

[PaulSacramento]

I think it is important to understand that while one CAN appeal to tradition, it doesn't mean that all view tradition with the same authority.
I think that different people and arguments need different tactics to explain the Triune nature of God.
In my case, it was the other-centered love relationship that did it for me.
For God to be GOD he would not have NEED for anything and for God to be GOD His love had to be the highest form of Love and that is NEVER a self-centered love but a love that gives and sacrifices for others a love focused and centered on others.
Only the Trinity answers that issue and that is what "won me over".