The issue with that statement for non-trinitarians has always been what does that mean? Jesus is God?
How can Jesus be God if Jesus says that He is returning to His father and our father, His God and our God?
If Jesus is God, then is he return to himself ??
The above is a typical of the kind of issue a non-trinitarian would raise to the statement that Jesus is God.
I can't see how anyone can separate Jesus from G-d as a mother who gives birth to her baby. Jesus IS and comes from G-d the same way.. You could argue that he isn't the Father, but He comes from the Father and is G-d.
So yes, it can be addressed. I like the way CARM says it..
"The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
The issue with that statement for non-trinitarians has always been what does that mean? Jesus is God?
How can Jesus be God if Jesus says that He is returning to His father and our father, His God and our God?
If Jesus is God, then is he return to himself ??
The above is a typical of the kind of issue a non-trinitarian would raise to the statement that Jesus is God.
I can't see how anyone can separate Jesus from G-d as a mother who gives birth to her baby. Jesus IS and comes from G-d the same way.. You could argue that he isn't the Father, but He comes from the Father and is G-d.
So yes, it can be addressed. I like the way CARM says it..
"The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God."
Oh I agree of course.
The Trinity is a doctrine of NATURE and not "identity".
As CS Lewis said so well, " What is begotten of God IS God".
Sure some like the JW's will state that he is "a god", a lesser form of God that that is getting into polytheism.
To be honest, I started off having some doubts about the Trinity doctrines, simply because it is worded in a very, well...overly complicated way I guess.
But the more I studied, the more I read, the more I asked the HS for help, the more a "triune" God seemed right to me and, what was the clincher FOR ME was the argument for other-centered love.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Oh I agree of course.
The Trinity is a doctrine of NATURE and not "identity".
As CS Lewis said so well, " What is begotten of God IS God".
Sure some like the JW's will state that he is "a god", a lesser form of God that that is getting into polytheism.
To be honest, I started off having some doubts about the Trinity doctrines, simply because it is worded in a very, well...overly complicated way I guess.
But the more I studied, the more I read, the more I asked the HS for help, the more a "triune" God seemed right to me and, what was the clincher FOR ME was the argument for other-centered love.
I think everyone has had a problem with it. Including myself... But I don't understand your identity part here.. I believe it does, it also it reveals the identity of Christ as Elohim. But not as the father..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
PaulSacramento wrote:
Oh I agree of course.
The Trinity is a doctrine of NATURE and not "identity".
As CS Lewis said so well, " What is begotten of God IS God".
Sure some like the JW's will state that he is "a god", a lesser form of God that that is getting into polytheism.
To be honest, I started off having some doubts about the Trinity doctrines, simply because it is worded in a very, well...overly complicated way I guess.
But the more I studied, the more I read, the more I asked the HS for help, the more a "triune" God seemed right to me and, what was the clincher FOR ME was the argument for other-centered love.
I think everyone has had a problem with it. Including myself... But I don't understand your identity part here.. I believe it does, it also it reveals the identity of Christ as Elohim. But not as the father..
I view that Trinity doctrine as a doctrine of WHAT God is, not so much WHO God is.
Using Jesus as an example:
The trinity states what Jesus is: Of the same nature as He who begot Him, GOD.
Jesus being of the same nature as God makes Him God, though it doesn't make Him "His own Father".
The main critique of the Trinity is when someone has the view that GOD is WHO someone is, not WHAT they are, know what I mean?
Gman wrote:I think everyone has had a problem with it. Including myself...
You shouldn't speak for others. I don't, and I know quite a few others who don't, either.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
Gman wrote:I think everyone has had a problem with it. Including myself...
You shouldn't speak for others. I don't, and I know quite a few others who don't, either.
Maybe not for you, but I know many people that can't properly define nor defend it. And I'm not talking about theologians either. I'm talking about your average believer.. Or those who post on our forum.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Regardless, not for me. I'm not terribly concerned why you think that I haven't had a problem with it. I'm just saying you should be careful about speaking for others. You said everyone has had a problem with it. That's just not true, and that's all I was getting at.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
Jac3510 wrote:Regardless, not for me. I'm not terribly concerned why you think that I haven't had a problem with it. I'm just saying you should be careful about speaking for others. You said everyone has had a problem with it. That's just not true, and that's all I was getting at.
Sorry.. My bad.. I should have understood you see things clearly.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
i agree jesus and the father share the same nature, but jesus has all authority, hes the image of the father the EXACT representation of His being, same nature same authority One God 3 persons, i dont think the Father has more authority then the son, the father is eternal with the son with the holy spirit its just one authority so they all share the same power and authority, theres a singularity and plurality of Gods being, you can address God in 3 persons to His singularity or plurality of His being, to the son to the holy spirit to the father, they all share the same title "God" yet theres only one God, without the father there would be no son without the son there would be no father without the holy ghost theres is no God no authority
If Jesus is God, why did he pray to the Father in John 17?
Jesus prayed to the Father because as a man, under the Law (Gal. 4:4), he needed to pray to the Father. The Bible teaches that he was both God and man (Col. 2:9; John 8:58 with Ex. 3:14). Also, Jesus has two natures. Therefore, we will see two types of scripture concerning Jesus: those that seem to focus on His divine-side, and those that seem to focus on His human-side. The Jehovah's Witnesses are simply ignoring, or changing, the divine-side scriptures and concentrating on those that describe His human-side. See Hypostatic Union for information on the two natures of Jesus.
Also, God is a Trinity which means that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all divine, but are distinct persons, not three gods. The person of the Son prayed to the person of the Father. This makes sense since Jesus was fully divine and fully human at the same time.
If Jesus is God, why did Jesus say the Father was greater than He (John 14:28)?
He said this because His position was different than that of God the Father, not His nature. Heb. 2:9 says that Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels and Gal. 4:4 says, He was under the Law. Therefore, as a man he was in a lesser position that the Father, but not different in nature. This would also explain why he grew in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52).
By comparison, a husband is the head of the family and the wife is not. Though their positions are different, he has greater authority, their natures are the same. This is how it works with Jesus. His nature is the same as the Father, but he was sent by the Father (John 6:44) and was in a lesser position due to his incarnation and being under the Law.
Why did Jesus ask, "Why call me good, only God is good?" in Luke 18:19?
Jesus said this because it is true that only God is good. When Jesus said this he wasn't saying that people can't do good things on a human level but that true goodness belongs to God alone. He is the standard of what is good. So, we must ask the Jehovah's Witness, "Was Jesus good?" Obviously, the answer has to be yes. Therefore, when Jesus said only God was good, he was confirming His own deity because what He was doing was good.
Why did Jesus say that He could only do those things that He saw the Father do in John 5:19?
He said this because as God in flesh he was able to do the same things that God the Father could do. No mere man or angel could rightfully say this. If Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, then he would naturally be able to do whatever the Father can do. Therefore, Jesus is divine.
Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethic, James Hastings, Trinity, p.461
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian in the strictly ontological reference."
The Triune God, Edward Fortman
"They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated."
The Encyclopedia Americana
"It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind".
The Catholic Encyclopedia
"The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom" ("Ad. Autol.", 11, 15, P. G., VI, 1078). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."
Quotes from the Ante Nicene Fathers 1
Mathetes - 130 AD "the holy and incomprehensible Word the very Creator and Fashioner of all things. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Savior He sent Him the immortal One for them that are mortal" Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, ANTE Vol.1 pp.63,65
Polycarp of Smyrna, a student of the Apostle John - 150 AD "Wherefore also I praise Thee [the ever-truthful God] for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" - Epistle of the church at Smyrna Ch.14 ANTE Vol 1 p.92
Justin Martyr - 150 AD "we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed." First Apology Ch. 13 ANTE Vol 1 p.309
"nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son, who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself." - First Apology ch. 63 ANTE Vol 1 p.352
Tatian the Syrian - 170 AD "We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." - Address to the Greeks, ch. 21 ANTE Vol 2 p.149
Melito of Sardis - 160 - 177 AD "The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages." Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13
Irenaeus, student of Polycarp - 180 AD "For the one and the same Spirit of God, who proclaimed by the prophets what and of what sort the advent of the Lord should be, did by these elders give a just interpretation of what had been truly prophesied; and He did Himself, by the apostles, announce that the fullness of the times of the adoption had arrived, that the kingdom of heaven had drawn nigh, and that He was dwelling within those that believe on Him who was born Emmanuel of the Virgin." Against Heresies ch.21 ANTE Vol.1 p.933
Clement of Alexandria - 190 AD "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." - Stromata, Book V ch. 14 ANTE Vol.2 p.970
Tertullian - c. 205 AD "The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25
"The Son of God is identical with God. The Spirit of God is God." - Against Praxeas ch.26
Actually fellas and ladies, I've found the information in the original post to be true. There are several very good reasons and quite a bit of evidence to support that the trinity doctrine was created by the political powers of Rome for purely political reasons. I used to be a trinity believer and member of the assembly of God church. Due to some very lack luster or NO answers to some issues, I looked into it all myself and put it to the test. Oh my God does western Christianity fail miserably in my tests. The trinity is just one of them.
The O.P. messages are true in stating that any talk of, teaching of or any aspect of the trinity did not exist in Christianity before the times of Constantine. None of the scriptures or commentary on the scriptures before that time have any of the verses or phrases about "father, son and holy spirit". Writings from early Greek church fathers to each other after Constantine's trinity decree also describe it as "new and disturbing". On top of all that you have the records from Rome itself showing the first attempt at pushing this idea came in the form of "the father, son and mother Mary" This was widely rejected by the council and populous who viewed women as inferior beings because of the culture views. Constantine still had to find a safe way to merge the Polytheistic belief systems of the existing empire with this new and powerful influx of monotheism in Christianity. The father, son and holy spirit existence of God was created, made official and anything that stood in it's way was nearly wiped out or decreed heresy and anathema. The verses used to support the trinity in the bible now were placed there by the people who created the trinity itself. Compare the bibles you have now with the scriptures and writings of Origen and you will see it. it's sad and at times enraging to realize that something you thought was a totally reality and truth, was actually a fabrication of a small group of self centered men from so long ago....and they are still getting away with it.
my current understanding of the nature of God has made everything else SO much easier. I don't mean any of this as an attack on any of you nor is it ridicule. I'm letting you know what I have found to be verifiably true after a lot of work. My conclusion about WHAT God is, is that it's not exactly one thing and definitely not 3 things. God is infinite, God is love, light and truth. God is spirit, thought and consciousness. We are part of God and God is part of us. We came from God and back to God we will go. Pretty simple huh?
I see you have a discussion on the identity of Jesus going too. Although not as extensive, I did work into that as well, if anyone is interested.
secretfire6 wrote:Actually fellas and ladies, I've found the information in the original post to be true.
My aunt Donna from Vancouver makes wonderful fruitcake. She makes it according to a recipe I've already posted on this site, then dunks it in rum for 24 hours. She lets the outside dry, then covers it with banana icing. Aunt Donna sends me one of her fruitcakes every Christmas. I wish I could send you some.
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
secretfire6 wrote:
We are part of God and God is part of us. We came from God and back to God we will go. Pretty simple huh?
Oy vey!!!!!!!
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Oy vey!!!!!!!