Christians leaving their faith

[Thadeyus]

Another huge post to reply to. *Takes deep breath* Here goes,

Oh the glories of nihilism! So cavalier – so proud! Thad – you captured that feeling very well and I commend you for your honesty.

Thank you.

But are you really that honest?

*Has quite moment of introspection* Um..yes, yes I am being honest.

Never told a lie – never took anything not yours?

*Blinks* Um...yes, told lies etc...unfortunately every one does (Not to cast aspersions) though what that has to do with my previous comment on honesty...?

Never said you were sick to avoid something?

Um...again, not sure about this comment...

Are you really that honest with own yourself?

Again...all I can say is yes, yes I have been honest with myself. Honestly.

Your belief in nihilism and the nothingness – what does it justify, not just for you alone, but to the whole world?

? Um...what believe in nihilism? I'm quite happy (To a degree as are we all) with the world etc.

I used to think such mindsets would usher in a new wave of peace and blissful harmony but after looking around at the world as it really is, full of folks who claim such honesty – I saw that idea is impossible. One person’s happiness is derived by taking from one by any means possible always destroyed the nice nihilistic folks who believed in illusions about the world and self.

Well..I msut say I'm glad I'm nothing like this at all.

The evidence of history proves this true and the state of current affairs as well too. No one is 100% honest other than God. Why would God desire to have dishonest folks, who lived life in denial of his existence, who seek to exploit God’s sense of fairness/forgiveness to get their own way, to live as his neighbors in heaven?

Um...no real idea as to why god would want such things.

What’s to stop them from continuing their same dishonestly and smugness from ruining heaven as it did paradise?

*Scratches head* Um, because of what such a place as heaven is supposed to be?

God is fair and his forgiveness is toward all who surrender their own will to him through the work He did for us upon the cross of Christ Jesus. It is free and since it is free, one can accept his terms or reject them freely. In that way, God can freely see who is really honest about themselves from those that seek to exploit His goodness for their gain. In what part of this equation do you fit?

So...being free willed I am hence free? Right, so in being free and not believing in any gods...I'm not free...?

I think we need to slow go over each of these points together at a tad more length....

[Thadeyus]

What about keeping reading the Bible, listening to God's word, to God himself and not some schools?

What about them? Sorry, we also need to parse this down into its bits and chat about them.

Not quite sure of the question in this one.

[Kurieuo]

Well...you kind of answered the point I was making. I find none of it plausible. From Zoroastria to Zeus to the Spaghetti monster to Santa (Yes, I know the coming fesstive seacon will see with with coal stuffed stockings. )

If you had kids, and served them spaghetti, then perhaps you'd find the Spaghettit monster very plausible.

As for Zeus, Christians were some of the first Atheists there. It took you more modern "Atheists" about 1500 years longer to get your act together on that one!

And Zoroastria? Who is Zoroastria?

[Thadeyus]

If you had kids, and served them spaghetti, then perhaps you'd find the Spaghetti monster very plausible.

*Laughs* Amusing, but a tad droll.

As for Zeus, Christians were some of the first Atheists there. It took you more modern "Atheists" about 1500 years longer to get your act together on that one!

Um...well the Norse actually had a place and the ability within their beliefs to have a 'Gottless" group of people. Folks for/to whom is was acceptable to reject the gods. (Not sure fo the spelling.)

And Zoroastria? Who is Zoroastria?

Zoroastrian ...Just another faith that I don't believe in.

[Kurieuo]

If you had kids, and served them spaghetti, then perhaps you'd find the Spaghetti monster very plausible.

*Laughs* Amusing, but a tad droll.

Thanks, but I can't take all the credit. Any drollness is because the concept of the spaghetti monster is droll. Besides its witty drollness I don't think any side is foolish enough to take it with much seriousness as an argument. But, then again, some might just be so foolish.

As for Zeus, Christians were some of the first Atheists there. It took you more modern "Atheists" about 1500 years longer to get your act together on that one!

Um...well the Norse actually had a place and the ability within their beliefs to have a 'Gottless" group of people. Folks for/to whom is was acceptable to reject the gods. (Not sure fo the spelling.)

Does that mean the "Gottless" were just made to watch rather than participate during ritual practices to the likes of Aphrodite?

And Zoroastria? Who is Zoroastria?

Zoroastrian ...Just another faith that I don't believe in.

Ahh, Zoroaster.

[Thadeyus]

Thanks, but I can't take all the credit. Any drollness is because the concept of the spaghetti monster is droll. Besides its witty drollness I don't think any side is foolish enough to take it with much seriousness as an argument. But, then again, some might just be so foolish.

I actually find the whole "Spaghetti Monster"(Flying or otherwise) amusing/humorous. Which is about as far as I take the whole shenanigans.

Does that mean the "Gottless" were just made to watch rather than participate during ritual practices to the likes of Aphrodite?

um... the Norse had their pantheon of gods (Some of whom have recently made an appearance in movies) AND how their world worked. They then also accepted people who rejected such gods and celestial machinations and were happy to be with/accept said peoples/folks.

Aphrodite was a Greek/Roman goddess..and I'm pretty sure the Norse would have more than thrown themselves into her worshiping..

I get the idea that the Norse were quite big on "Spitting in the face of fate/adversity" etc.

Ahh, Zoroaster.

Perzactly!

[1over137]

What about keeping reading the Bible, listening to God's word, to God himself and not some schools?

What about them? Sorry, we also need to parse this down into its bits and chat about them.

Not quite sure of the question in this one.

Will ask differently: when reading the Bible does it speak to your heart?

And when attending various schools (catholics), when you disliked the school then you disliked the school, right? Does it automatically mean you are to dislike God and Bible?

[Thadeyus]

When reading the Bible does it speak to your heart?

Nope, reading the Bible neither spoke to my heart nor my head. (Nor any other part of me....*Pokes self*)

And when attending various schools (Catholics), when you disliked the school then you disliked the school, right?

Um...I went to some very nice Catholic schools. Which is not to say any kid doesn't grow up and have issues....or have I missed something again?

Does it automatically mean you are to dislike God and Bible?

Um...no...?

[cnk12]

cnk12 wrote:
Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?
Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

To answer all your points simply and succinctly, yes...Yes I have.

You've been busy! Do you have the time if I ask you some more questions and comment on your answer? I see you're answering a lot of other questions and I don't want to take up too much of your time, if you're satisfied with what you have going on already.

[jlay]

As for Zeus, Christians were some of the first Atheists there. It took you more modern "Atheists" about 1500 years longer to get your act together on that one!

Thad, you managed to assign my name to a quote that was not mine. Which makes me wonder all the more why you seem to have ignored my post all together.

[B. W.]

Another huge post to reply to. *Takes deep breath* Here goes,

Oh the glories of nihilism! So cavalier – so proud! Thad – you captured that feeling very well and I commend you for your honesty.

Thank you.

But are you really that honest?

*Has quite moment of introspection* Um..yes, yes I am being honest.

Never told a lie – never took anything not yours?

*Blinks* Um...yes, told lies etc...unfortunately every one does (Not to cast aspersions) though what that has to do with my previous comment on honesty...?

Proves beyond all reasonable doubt by being dishonest about your state of honesty...

In other words, loss of credibility, by admitting to lying, how can anyone really trust a nihilist to tell the truth?

You see, the truth of the matter is that human beings are dishonest as well as honest and most often dishonest about their own nature. Lying to self to escape consequences to justify selfish actions - such as lying, theft, etc and etc...or a cavalier attitude that seeks some sort moral superiority through nihilism's honesty is spurious in its attempt to escape consequences of wrongness.

There is nothing to hold you back from deceiving or murdering or lying if all is void. All good actions, no matter how noble, are, well, pointless... in the full scheme of this illusion called life.

So how can anyone here, reading this, Thad, say for certain that you are really who you say you are since there is nothing you can hold on too except nothingness with certaincy?

For a Christian, we have God to hold us into account – you – nothingness…

Never said you were sick to avoid something?

Um...again, not sure about this comment...

Simple, have you ever said whatever you needed to get out of work - feign illness - or blame others to avoid consequence - stole something - maybe broken someone’s heart?

Your belief in nihilism and the nothingness – what does it justify, not just for you alone, but to the whole world?

? Um...what believe in nihilism? I'm quite happy (To a degree as are we all) with the world etc.

To a degree -- What does that mean? If only a degree then you are not actually happy with the world. To be partially happy with the world is not the same as being happy with the world.

I used to think such mindsets would usher in a new wave of peace and blissful harmony but after looking around at the world as it really is, full of folks who claim such honesty – I saw that idea is impossible. One person’s happiness is derived by taking from one by any means possible always destroyed the nice nihilistic folks who believed in illusions about the world and self.

Well..I must say I'm glad I'm nothing like this at all.

So then you are saying that you have no motives here? Then why are you here - what worth is your own existence? Have you ever considered that?

The evidence of history proves this true and the state of current affairs as well too. No one is 100% honest other than God. Why would God desire to have dishonest folks, who lived life in denial of his existence, who seek to exploit God’s sense of fairness/forgiveness to get their own way, to live as his neighbors in heaven?

Um...no real idea as to why god would want such things.

'no real idea as to why god would want such things'

God keeps his word. He gave the world to humanity and placed us in charge. It would be criminal for him to steal this away as it would cause him to against his word, promises and gifts he gave humanity. It is humanity who seeks to exploit God’s sense of fairness/forgiveness to get one's own way and thus makes a muck out of life and humanity as the audacity to blame God for our own crimes as well too. Amazing…isn’t it?

Isn't that what you have just done in your comment spoken without knowledge and truth?

What’s to stop them from continuing their same dishonestly and smugness from ruining heaven as it did paradise?

*Scratches head* Um, because of what such a place as heaven is supposed to be?

If you meant here what I think I am hearing you say - then this proves my point written above and what you are about to write in an attempt to blame God for all crimes. (see below)

God is fair and his forgiveness is toward all who surrender their own will to him through the work He did for us upon the cross of Christ Jesus. It is free and since it is free, one can accept his terms or reject them freely. In that way, God can freely see who is really honest about themselves from those that seek to exploit His goodness for their gain. In what part of this equation do you fit?

So...being free willed I am hence free? Right, so in being free and not believing in any gods...I'm not free...?

I think we need to slow go over each of these points together at a tad more length....

Begin with a tad more length - okay... so here begins...

What part don't you understand about choice and free moral agency?

If God denied these to you, then how could he really be all powerful and true to his character and nature? You can believe that there are no gods or god as you so choose. How one lives their life, here on earth, demonstrates clearly what one would do and still be like in heaven if such were allowed in their current unchanged untrustworthy state.

If such a person thinks God should just allow them in heaven, due to ignorance, how can such a person actually be trustworthy in heaven if they have proven in this mortal life how untrustworthy they really are toward God and each other - by denying the trustworthy God the right to change them in this mortal now?

You may think, God can just do so, in heaven with a simple snap of a finger change such a cad, yet, wouldn't that be morally wrong to force someone who has proven themselves desiring being untrustworthy more than trustworthy to a place, to a person, they ignore, blame, and despise? Wouldn't such a person, be attempting to game-work God’s fairness – grace, love for their own advantage? How untrustworthy is that towards a trustworthy God? Did you not cite such a claim earlier in one of your own post?

Instead, the true God of justice would do what is necessary to present a choice to a person to change in a place where a second chance, mortal life, is actually possible. Such a second chance, mortal life, God proves how trustworthy he is and how untrustworthy we are by presenting the evidenced of life how untrustworthy we are and the need to change. In the afterlife, individuals takes what is in themselves with them into an eternal never ending state. So only in mortal life, this second chance is change possible.

A real God would then help those who see their need to change - help them change so they will not corrupt heaven and bring to fruition within them, what they were really designed to be, trustworthy. He would do so, without any violation to his own nature and character, nor any violation to any gift, calling, of promise granted to humanity, even to his own hurt.

For example, God would allow himself to be mocked, put on trial, falsely accused of wrong doing, mocked, spat upon, beaten, lied about, ridiculed, have his possessions torn from his own body, striped naked, have his hands and feet nailed to a splintery wooden cross - a crown of mocking thorns crammed upon his head, to show humanity that it is we who do these things to god and each other.

Isn't it any wonder, humanity was forsaken upon this spinning globe called earth - exchanging the life God had for the nihilism of human achievements?

God in his own love would come and die as a man in our place to wake us up to what we are like to each other and God, exposing in us what actually defines sin - exposing its ugliness in a timeless display upon some barren insignificant rock in Judea. In doing so, die the death we deserve - all to bring those that wake up and see - back into his fold, to place a little heaven on earth, so we can find our true purpose, which prepares us for the one to come so we will not ruin it with shame.

No other god or gods - or philosophical/religious system did this. They are all based upon a tit-for-tat mentality. The Judaic/Christian God did the works for us, even changes us, all freely, without any violation to himself first or to us next. For that, you seem to mock God and continue to cite him for crimes all in order to justify your escapism into nihilism.

You maybe have claimed that you once walked away from all this but maybe what you really walked away from was a corrupted vision of God from those within the church world. You can justify your inaction and docile nihilism and sit smugly proud but there will come a time when you and I will die and it is not into a bliss of nothingness we will find ourselves in. In the long run, I will be proved correct in this. Your nihilism will not.

Christ died and exposed what is in your heart and you live to continue with the nails and hammer, trial, and false testimonies of your own honesty and moral superiority of ridiculing the one and only God who desires you to simply come to your senses and return to him and uncover his real purpose for life.

That purpose is only found in his reconciling reach down to you from his bleeding nail scared hand he is now offering to you. No matter how many times you continue to slap it away with disdain, he keeps reaching for you, until that day, you take your last breath. Then the deal is done, life forever without his true life altering embrace or in that embrace. He offers a choice to you and all here, reading this, for that, many seeking to slay God, so very sad…

Are you really that honest with own yourself?

Again...all I can say is yes, yes I have been honest with myself. Honestly.

Really???
-
-
-

[Thadeyus]

Sorry about missing your post. I thought I did answer it. Perhaps something happened and the interwebz shuffled it off to some where else, as sometimes happens? I hope this is the post to which you refer? Now, on with the answering.

Thad, you at least have to willingly to engage in honest discussion. Do you really think that WL's reason for this question was whether or not pregnancy was planned? What he is saying here is that if there is no intrinsic value to human life, or reason for our existence, then where can a person find meaning in life? "Meaning," would not mean...., anything. It would be an illusion or a delusion.

I wasn't going to make that assumption of assigning ideas to their words.

What about the person who is born into abject poverty, or lives in slavery.

Such states are terrible things.

You are assuming that your pleasure is the basis of purpose. I don't think I need to warn you of how dangerous things can get when pleasure becomes the measuring stick for purpose. Under that standard we can say that Hitler's ambitions were full of purpose.

No, no I'm not doing this at all. I admit that enjoying life is a good thing, but it is not the be all and end all of things.

Here is the problem with this line of thinking. You are participating in a forum that actually offers you answers to those questions. This is a ridiculous answer. Just why are you here? To remain ignorant of the claims of Christianity? Please. So, how are you going to claim ignorance? Surely you are smart enough to realize that 'purpose' actually has some intrinsic meaning beyond your own self-awareness. Or maybe not. Perhaps you are so shallow that you actually think that purpose is just some arbitrary term that is subjective to your individual experience.

Why am I here in this thread? To answer WannaLearn's questions was the reason for my first post. Everything after that has been answering other's questions as they have put to me. Why am I perusong these forums? Because they are an interesting rad and perusal most of the time.

From one Christian perspective, Hell is not about forgiveness. After all, the NT teaches that Christ has already died for your sins, and those of the world. What is complicated, theologically, about that? So, if that is the case then your sins are forgiven. Heaven and Hell then becomes an issue of what you are going to do with that information. Receive it (trust it), or reject it. The Bible teaches that Christ died for your sins. (1st Cor. 15:3,4) What you are saying is that you willingly, consciously refuse to trust this for yourself. Despite the fact that it has been shared with you, you reject it, and then want to convince the reader here that you will simply claim ignorance as a defense. Of course, your participation in this forum is a fuse that you lit to blow up your own argument. On top of that, you expect God to simply betray Himself and His promises and yield to your faulty reasoning. Brilliant.

Um... yes, yes I do refuse to trust this. So..I am being honest in my doubts and skepticism. I am being honest when I say "I don't know." You think it's all quite true, and good on you for such, I however do not.

[jlay]

I wasn't going to make that assumption of assigning ideas to their words.

What?? You did make an assumption. An incorrect one. And thus gave no intellectual answer to his question.

What about the person who is born into abject poverty, or lives in slavery.

Such states are terrible things.

Terrible, according to what?

You are assuming that your pleasure is the basis of purpose. I don't think I need to warn you of how dangerous things can get when pleasure becomes the measuring stick for purpose. Under that standard we can say that Hitler's ambitions were full of purpose.

No, no I'm not doing this at all. I admit that enjoying life is a good thing, but it is not the be all and end all of things.

Again, good according to what?
If Hitler received enjoyment from implementing his plans, are you saying that this is good as well? If not, then how do you make these distinctions. What standard are you appealing to here?

Um... yes, yes I do refuse to trust this. So..I am being honest in my doubts and skepticism. I am being honest when I say "I don't know." You think it's all quite true, and good on you for such, I however do not.

Yet, you still expect God (that you don't believe in) to be held to your standard. In other words, if God exists, then you believe that He should submit to you. Let you into His heaven, when you knowingly rejected His gift of mercy. Sorry, but that doesn't float.

[1over137]

When reading the Bible does it speak to your heart?

Nope, reading the Bible neither spoke to my heart nor my head. (Nor any other part of me....*Pokes self*)

Habe you ever trusted Christ?

And when attending various schools (Catholics), when you disliked the school then you disliked the school, right?

Um...I went to some very nice Catholic schools. Which is not to say any kid doesn't grow up and have issues....or have I missed something again?

Just saying that you may disliked the school and maybe that you could not dislike God because you may have never known him.

Does it automatically mean you are to dislike God and Bible?

Um...no...?

[Thadeyus]

Proves beyond all reasonable doubt by being dishonest about your state of honesty...

In other words, loss of credibility, by admitting to lying, how can anyone really trust a nihilist to tell the truth?

You see, the truth of the matter is that human beings are dishonest as well as honest and most often dishonest about their own nature. Lying to self to escape consequences to justify selfish actions - such as lying, theft, etc and etc...or a cavalier attitude that seeks some sort moral superiority through nihilism's honesty is spurious in its attempt to escape consequences of wrongness.

There is nothing to hold you back from deceiving or murdering or lying if all is void. All good actions, no matter how noble, are, well, pointless... in the full scheme of this illusion called life.

So how can anyone here, reading this, Thad, say for certain that you are really who you say you are since there is nothing you can hold on too except nothingness with certainty?

For a Christian, we have God to hold us into account – you – nothingness…

So...because I was/am honest about being dishonest...I must therefore always be dishonest, even when I say I'm being dishonest...? Well...thanks for being honest.

Simple, have you ever said whatever you needed to get out of work - feign illness - or blame others to avoid consequence - stole something - maybe broken someone’s heart?

Your belief in nihilism and the nothingness – what does it justify, not just for you alone, but to the whole world?

Again, I've not/never said I do not believe in everything. Or that I have no beliefs.

To a degree -- What does that mean? If only a degree then you are not actually happy with the world. To be partially happy with the world is not the same as being happy with the world.

To the degree that I am unhappy with many things in the world, but am generally happy with the world. In all a large generalization for a sweeping comment about a huge, varied and multifaceted question.

I used to think such mindsets would usher in a new wave of peace and blissful harmony but after looking around at the world as it really is, full of folks who claim such honesty – I saw that idea is impossible.

*Shrug* Okay.

One person’s happiness is derived by taking from one by any means possible always destroyed the nice nihilistic folks who believed in illusions about the world and self.

Um...again okay. I don't do such things.

So then you are saying that you have no motives here? Then why are you here - what worth is your own existence? Have you ever considered that?[/quotre]

As I answered jlay. I'm looking at these forums since I find reading them interesting/entertaining. I'm posting in this thread initially to answer WannLearn's questions and since then the many questions put forward/forth back at me.

'no real idea as to why god would want such things'

God keeps his word. He gave the world to humanity and placed us in charge. It would be criminal for him to steal this away as it would cause him to against his word, promises and gifts he gave humanity. It is humanity who seeks to exploit God’s sense of fairness/forgiveness to get one's own way and thus makes a muck out of life and humanity as the audacity to blame God for our own crimes as well too. Amazing…isn’t it?

If you say so. I don't have any sch faith in such beings, as I'm/I've explained to WannaLearn.

Isn't that what you have just done in your comment spoken without knowledge and truth?

Quite possibly.

What’s to stop them from continuing their same dishonestly and smugness from ruining heaven as it did paradise?

*Scratches head* Um, because of what such a place as heaven is supposed to be?

If you meant here what I think I am hearing you say - then this proves my point written above and what you are about to write in an attempt to blame God for all crimes. (see below)

God is fair and his forgiveness is toward all who surrender their own will to him through the work He did for us upon the cross of Christ Jesus. It is free and since it is free, one can accept his terms or reject them freely. In that way, God can freely see who is really honest about themselves from those that seek to exploit His goodness for their gain. In what part of this equation do you fit?

So...being free willed I am hence free? Right, so in being free and not believing in any gods...I'm not free...?

I think we need to slow go over each of these points together at a tad more length....

Okay...everything further is a huge amount of complicated text which I will need/take time to read and understand and such. I've copied it to a word file on my computer and will work on it there and post it back here some time in the future.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Begin with a tad more length - okay... so here begins...

What part don't you understand about choice and free moral agency?

If God denied these to you, then how could he really be all powerful and true to his character and nature? You can believe that there are no gods or god as you so choose. How one lives their life, here on earth, demonstrates clearly what one would do and still be like in heaven if such were allowed in their current unchanged untrustworthy state.

If such a person thinks God should just allow them in heaven, due to ignorance, how can such a person actually be trustworthy in heaven if they have proven in this mortal life how untrustworthy they really are toward God and each other - by denying the trustworthy God the right to change them in this mortal now?

You may think, God can just do so, in heaven with a simple snap of a finger change such a cad, yet, wouldn't that be morally wrong to force someone who has proven themselves desiring being untrustworthy more than trustworthy to a place, to a person, they ignore, blame, and despise? Wouldn't such a person, be attempting to game-work God’s fairness – grace, love for their own advantage? How untrustworthy is that towards a trustworthy God? Did you not cite such a claim earlier in one of your own post?

Instead, the true God of justice would do what is necessary to present a choice to a person to change in a place where a second chance, mortal life, is actually possible. Such a second chance, mortal life, God proves how trustworthy he is and how untrustworthy we are by presenting the evidenced of life how untrustworthy we are and the need to change. In the afterlife, individuals takes what is in themselves with them into an eternal never ending state. So only in mortal life, this second chance is change possible.

A real God would then help those who see their need to change - help them change so they will not corrupt heaven and bring to fruition within them, what they were really designed to be, trustworthy. He would do so, without any violation to his own nature and character, nor any violation to any gift, calling, of promise granted to humanity, even to his own hurt.

For example, God would allow himself to be mocked, put on trial, falsely accused of wrong doing, mocked, spat upon, beaten, lied about, ridiculed, have his possessions torn from his own body, striped naked, have his hands and feet nailed to a splintery wooden cross - a crown of mocking thorns crammed upon his head, to show humanity that it is we who do these things to god and each other.

Isn't it any wonder, humanity was forsaken upon this spinning globe called earth - exchanging the life God had for the nihilism of human achievements?

God in his own love would come and die as a man in our place to wake us up to what we are like to each other and God, exposing in us what actually defines sin - exposing its ugliness in a timeless display upon some barren insignificant rock in Judea. In doing so, die the death we deserve - all to bring those that wake up and see - back into his fold, to place a little heaven on earth, so we can find our true purpose, which prepares us for the one to come so we will not ruin it with shame.

No other god or gods - or philosophical/religious system did this. They are all based upon a tit-for-tat mentality. The Judaic/Christian God did the works for us, even changes us, all freely, without any violation to himself first or to us next. For that, you seem to mock God and continue to cite him for crimes all in order to justify your escapism into nihilism.

You maybe have claimed that you once walked away from all this but maybe what you really walked away from was a corrupted vision of God from those within the church world. You can justify your inaction and docile nihilism and sit smugly proud but there will come a time when you and I will die and it is not into a bliss of nothingness we will find ourselves in. In the long run, I will be proved correct in this. Your nihilism will not.

Christ died and exposed what is in your heart and you live to continue with the nails and hammer, trial, and false testimonies of your own honesty and moral superiority of ridiculing the one and only God who desires you to simply come to your senses and return to him and uncover his real purpose for life.

That purpose is only found in his reconciling reach down to you from his bleeding nail scared hand he is now offering to you. No matter how many times you continue to slap it away with disdain, he keeps reaching for you, until that day, you take your last breath. Then the deal is done, life forever without his true life altering embrace or in that embrace. He offers a choice to you and all here, reading this, for that, many seeking to slay God, so very sad…

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Are you really that honest with own yourself?

Again...all I can say is yes, yes I have been honest with myself. Honestly. [/quote]

Really???

So...to your questioning again of my honesty all I can again say is that yes I am being honest. Which you seem to find impossible.
-