Christians leaving their faith

[WannaLearn]

Wow Thadeyus, I have many questions for a guy like you. Mostly because I come from a similar position, but the more I learn, I've taken a hard lean towards Christianity. But first I want to answer your question…sorry, but I’ll have to do so with a bunch of questions!

"No. if the belief in god turns out to be actual, then I will be able to be honest and say I didn't believe in it. From there we get into a whole complicated amount of theology. If said god is all forgiving, then since I'm totally honest, what's not to forgive?

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?
Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

I have a question about one of your questions that I would like to have more of and understanding of. What do you mean the issue of god is philosophical issue rather than scientific one?

[Thadeyus]

Wow Thadeyus, I have many questions for a guy like you. Mostly because I come from a similar position, but the more I learn, I've taken a hard lean towards Christianity. But first I want to answer your question…sorry, but I’ll have to do so with a bunch of questions!

Nice to meet yourself as well.

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?

Yes and yes.

Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?

Well....if any god is real then it's philosophical AND real, isn't it?

Have you asked yourself what is love?

Yes, lots of times.

Do I have free will?

Which is an interesting question in and of it self. Which I'm still thinking about.

Are some things always wrong?

Yes 'some' things are always 'wrong'.

Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?

Have I made a study of the Bible? A thorough reading of all the works? No.

Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?

NOpe. My life often does not leand itself much time to study, pretty much of anything in general. Though perusing sites such as this does often lead to other very interesting web pages.

I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.

*Laughs* While Penn Jillette and Raymond Teller are amusing and informative people, my stance on belief, faith and religion long predates my having heard of either fellow.

BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

Indeed. my staggering about looking at things has also been enlightening. I suppose one could say that every one's journey is their own?

I have a question about one of your questions that I would like to have more of and understanding of. What do you mean the issue of god is philosophical issue rather than scientific one?

Um...sorry bt I don't remember asking this question? But then there as such a deluge of replies I may have either misquoted some one else or one of my answers might have become mixed up.

Very much cheers to you and yours.

[WannaLearn]

I ment to quote all that:) but I was asking the other guy about his question ,sorry I got this kinda mixed up.

[Thadeyus]

I meant to quote all that:) but I was asking the other guy about his question ,sorry I got this kinda mixed up.

That's okay. When the questions come thick and fast sometimes I agree it's hard to keep things straight.

Much cheers to all

[1over137]

I fixed the quotes to prevent it to be even more messy.

[WannaLearn]

thaknks:)

[cnk12]

I have a question about one of your questions that I would like to have more of and understanding of. What do you mean the issue of god is philosophical issue rather than scientific one?WannaLearn

Because one's belief or lack of belief in God is an opinion, it isn't proved or disproved with science. We may use things like the big bang, evolution, life's beginning, the anthropic principle, etc. as clues that God does/doesn't exist depending on one's perspective. But our ultimate determination is a philosophy rather than a scientific fact.

Though it's just my opinion (or maybe philosophy) I think the number philosophical issues where consistent thinking and logic points to God, and Atheism is shown to be illogical, and inconsistent; outnumber the scientific clues by far.

[cnk12]

Sorry but the quote boxes don't acknowledge what you wrote so I separated my comment from yours with a "return". I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

cnk12 wrote:
Are some things always wrong?

Yes 'some' things are always 'wrong'.

cnk12 wrote:
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?

NOpe. My life often does not leand itself much time to study, pretty much of anything in general. Though perusing sites such as this does often lead to other very interesting web pages.

It's very nice to talk with you Thaydeus. Rather than put us through a lot of back and forth, can I offer you what I think is an interesting video on these topics? http://givemeananswer.org/?p=2539
Personally, I really like the website and their videos.

cnk12 wrote:
Have you asked yourself what is love?

Yes, lots of times.

So is love just an involuntary response? The firing of a neuron in the brain? Rather isn't love a choice, tied in with free will? Sadly, there are way too many parents who choose not to love their children. It wouldn't be the case if love was simply involuntary or evolutionary.

cnk12 wrote:
Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?

Have I made a study of the Bible? A thorough reading of all the works? No.

I'm saying just the four gospels, not the whole Bible. But if you haven't, how can you answer yes as in the following quote...

cnk12 wrote:
Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?

Yes and yes.

cnk12 wrote:
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.

*Laughs* While Penn Jillette and Raymond Teller are amusing and informative people, my stance on belief, faith and religion long predates my having heard of either fellow.

Are you sure you're not an evil follower of Penn & Teller???!!!

Take care

[Thadeyus]

It's very nice to talk with you Thaydeus. Rather than put us through a lot of back and forth, can I offer you what I think is an interesting video on these topics? http://givemeananswer.org/?p=2539
Personally, I really like the website and their videos.

An interesting web site. Thank you for the link.

So is love just an involuntary response? The firing of a neuron in the brain? Rather isn't love a choice, tied in with free will? Sadly, there are way too many parents who choose not to love their children. It wouldn't be the case if love was simply involuntary or evolutionary.

This is a really complicated sentence. Perhaps you'd rather break down all the questions and such further than have me ham-fistedly go at it?

I'm saying just the four gospels, not the whole Bible. But if you haven't, how can you answer yes as in the following quote...

Thee are a great many things about which I freely admit to not having great knowledge of. I think most on the forums would also be in the same boat. This doesn't stop people/one from forming ideas and such from 'reading around the edges' on a great many things. I have not studied books on Aeronautics but have a basic idea of why planes stay aloft.

Are you sure you're not an evil follower of Penn & Teller?

No, I am no follower of the pair.

Much cheers to you.

[cnk12]

cnk12 wrote:
So is love just an involuntary response? The firing of a neuron in the brain? Rather isn't love a choice, tied in with free will? Sadly, there are way too many parents who choose not to love their children. It wouldn't be the case if love was simply involuntary or evolutionary.

This is a really complicated sentence. Perhaps you'd rather break down all the questions and such further than have me ham-fistedly go at it?

Yes, quite a sentence; I'm full of... sentences. Being more serious, I'm saying, doesn't it feel like love is more of a choice that we make, beyond something evolutionary? Not that those "urges" aren't there. But there's more to it all than that. If so, I think that's a clue that there's more to us than matter and energy(a soul). And I think the fact that there are so many situations where love isn't chosen when it should be if it was just something evolutionary, is a testament to that. I hope that's clear. I first heard this point made on that other website I referred you to.

cnk12 wrote:
I'm saying just the four gospels, not the whole Bible. But if you haven't, how can you answer yes as in the following quote...

There are a great many things about which I freely admit to not having great knowledge of. I think most on the forums would also be in the same boat. This doesn't stop people/one from forming ideas and such from 'reading around the edges' on a great many things. I have not studied books on Aeronautics but have a basic idea of why planes stay aloft.

I completely agree with you. But I'm responding to the fact you said you could answer yes to my question... Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Wouldn't a long hard look include (or even a basic look) reading the Gospels in the check out Christianity aspect of your search for truth?

I recommend watching other episodes on that website if it interests you; to me they're interesting regardless of your perspective and both sides of most topics are usually well stated. It's also gotten me considering things I hadn't considered before.

Take care(cheers!)

[Thadeyus]

Being more serious, I'm saying, doesn't it feel like love is more of a choice that we make, beyond something evolutionary? Not that those "urges" aren't there. But there's more to it all than that. If so, I think that's a clue that there's more to us than matter and energy(a soul). And I think the fact that there are so many situations where love isn't chosen when it should be if it was just something evolutionary, is a testament to that. I hope that's clear. I first heard this point made on that other website I referred you to.

Ah..okay...so,...what might be this 'soul'? Or the ephemeral aspects to our feelings/urges? How might we go about looking for such a thing, or things?

I completely agree with you. But I'm responding to the fact you said you could answer yes to my question... Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Wouldn't a long hard look include (or even a basic look) reading the Gospels in the check out Christianity aspect of your search for truth?

*Laughs and smiles* But...what makes you say I have stopped or am not looking? The fact that I currently don't find anything particularly supportive of any god doesn't mean I won't possibly find something supportive of any god. So...given your comments, I consider myself still saying yes to your comment/statement.

Take care(cheers!)

The same to yourself.

[Byblos]

Being more serious, I'm saying, doesn't it feel like love is more of a choice that we make, beyond something evolutionary? Not that those "urges" aren't there. But there's more to it all than that. If so, I think that's a clue that there's more to us than matter and energy(a soul). And I think the fact that there are so many situations where love isn't chosen when it should be if it was just something evolutionary, is a testament to that. I hope that's clear. I first heard this point made on that other website I referred you to.

Ah..okay...so,...what might be this 'soul'? Or the ephemeral aspects to our feelings/urges? How might we go about looking for such a thing, or things?

Look up hylomorphism.

[Thadeyus]

Look up hylomorphism.

*Nods* Okay...had a quick squiz through google.

So, if I'm reading the quick Wiki article right, ...by that the soul is what makes living things alive.... Interesting. So...what happens when some one loses part of themselves? An accident victim who's tragically lost a limb? Have they damaged their soul as well?

More over. When some one has been damaged in the brain and rendered into a vegetative state (Such that neuron damage means that artificial mechanisms are needed to maintain the organs etc) Where is the soul then?

Can such a concept of soul exist without its defining shape?

It's also a very old piece of Philosophy. How have more modern thinkers diverged from these thoughts?

How does our modern understanding of the world effect these ideas?

Much cheers to you and yours.

[Byblos]

Look up hylomorphism.

*Nods* Okay...had a quick squiz through google.

So, if I'm reading the quick Wiki article right, ...by that the soul is what makes living things alive.... Interesting. So...what happens when some one loses part of themselves? An accident victim who's tragically lost a limb? Have they damaged their soul as well?

More over. When some one has been damaged in the brain and rendered into a vegetative state (Such that neuron damage means that artificial mechanisms are needed to maintain the organs etc) Where is the soul then?

Can such a concept of soul exist without its defining shape?

It's also a very old piece of Philosophy. How have more modern thinkers diverged from these thoughts?

How does our modern understanding of the world effect these ideas?

Much cheers to you and yours.

You did a cursory look-up, good, it's a start. Now you need to dig a little deeper, all your questions are answered. For a thorough explanation I would recommend you pick up Philosophy of Mind by Edward Feser.

[Jac3510]

You did a cursory look-up, good, it's a start. Now you need to dig a little deeper, all your questions are answered. For a thorough explanation I would recommend you pick up Philosophy of Mind by Edward Feser.

Excellent suggestion.