Speaking in tongues

[ultimate777]

When people speak in tongues do they ever actually speak in known languages they do not understand, and if so, is there scientific evidence of this?

[Jac3510]

The commonly practiced phenomenon called "speaking in tongues" is not speaking in a known language. Whether or not there instances of people speaking known languages that they did not themselves learn is another matter, not widely studied that I am aware of precisely because it is not widely reported (although there are more than a few anecdotal accounts of just this type of thing happening, especially on the mission field).

You might be interested in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/healt ... .html?_r=0

[Silvertusk]

Also there is two camps of thought in all this as well. One is that tongues of Pentecost was in other foreign languages and the ability to speak in tongues is the ability to speak in other human languages without learning.

The other camp is that is it speaking in an unknown language - the language of angels.

Personally I subscribe to the first camp and the fact that most of tongues that is spoken today is gibberish.

IMHO.

[PeteSinCA]

Also there is two camps of thought in all this as well. One is that tongues of Pentecost was in other foreign languages and the ability to speak in tongues is the ability to speak in other human languages without learning.

The other camp is that is it speaking in an unknown language - the language of angels.

On its face, 1 Cor. 13:1 states that speaking in tongues can be a known human language or a/the language of angels: If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels .... Regarding the account in Acts 2, I can see two possible understandings. The believers may have, concurrently or serially, spoken the various languages of the people who heard them. Alternatively - there being some 120 believers gathered and 1-2 dozen languages represented among the hearers - the believers may have spoken in whatever language they spoke, but the hearers miraculously and concurrently heard what was spoken in the hearers' languages. Though I am of Pentecostal-charismatic perspective, I have no problem with or stake in either understanding. But for practical reasons - the din of ~120 people speaking simultaneously and the number of languages represented - I think there were both the miracle of speaking in tongues and a miracle in the hearers hearing what was spoken in their own languages.

1 Cor. 14 presents two venues (for lack of a better word) for the gift of speaking in tongues: privately; in an assembly of believers. And two or three "functions": prayer; praise; with an interpretation (also represented in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as a gift of the Spirit), prophecy (in the NT - as well as in the OT - prophecy is not limited to prediction of things to come).

As for "scientific evidence", please pardon my cynicism and skepticism of this phrase. I've too often seen it used as a euphemism for, "I won't believe it," and as a prelude to an unending exercise in goal-post-moving should some one cite evidence. So, for example, there are eyewitness accounts of persons speaking human languages that they do not know; these are commonly dismissed as liars (or as reproducing something heard long ago and not remembered; where there's the will to not believe, bases for denial are not lacking). There have been, I believe, occasional tapes (caught accidentally when an entire gathering was taped); these, similarly, are dismissed as deceptions. So I see no point in responding in this vein.

Personally I subscribe to the first camp and the fact that most of tongues that is spoken today is gibberish.

That some "speaking in tongues" is fleshly gibberish, I have no doubt; that some "speaking in tongues" is genuine, I similarly have no doubt. I haven't had contact with any significant percentage of the millions of Pentecostal and charismatic Christians (let alone gotten to know them), so I won't speculate further.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Speaking in tongues: whenever I hear that, I think ''FRUITCAKE!'' ...because that is generally what it is. I've only been in one church where tongues took place - in New Orleans - and I found it quite humorous.

Society as a whole seems to be getting nuttier and nuttier as time goes by.

FL

[PeteSinCA]

Speaking in tongues: whenever I hear that, I think ''FRUITCAKE!'' ...because that is generally what it is. I've only been in one church where tongues took place - in New Orleans - and I found it quite humorous.

Society as a whole seems to be getting nuttier and nuttier as time goes by.

FL

OK ... I was raised in a rather formal church, so I "get" the mental image. And I've been around Pentecostals and charismatics enough to know that freak show image is not utterly lacking in substance. The problem with that image is that, even ignoring the latter part of Mark chapter 16, significant parts of the book of Acts and three chapters of 1 Corinthians indicate that the freak show image misses and/or substantial truth as well. I think it unwise to say of one of the gifts God gave/gives to the church and believers through the Holy Spirit, "That's weird, I don't want that."

[RickD]

I've been in many churches where people have "spoken in tongues". In every instance, I believe it was a fleshly attempt to bring attention to the person doing the speaking in tongues babbling. Now, I'm not saying real tongues isn't a gift that members of the church have. But, I'd have to wonder what the purpose would be.
I guess my experience in Pentecostal or "fruitcake" churches as FL calls them, has shown me that much, if not all of what people call speaking in tongues, is not from the HS.

One instance I remember, was a small church I went to for a little while, where the pastor was praying, and one lady was "speaking in tongues" so loudly, that I couldn't even hear the pastor praying.

Another AG/Pentecostal church that my wife attended, had what I called the "orgasm lady". She spoke in tongues/babbled while simultaneously performing a moaning sound that would've given Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally, a run for her money.

And these outbursts were allowed by these pastors.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I think it unwise to say of one of the gifts God gave/gives to the church and believers through the Holy Spirit, "That's weird, I don't want that."

It is weird, and I certainly don't want tongues. If tongues are a gift, what spirit is giving the ''gift''?

After my first post, above, I remembered that I worked with a man who spoke in tongues and also ''wrote tongues''. What I heard was pure gibberish* and the writing I saw looked like a child's scribbles. Like I said,

Society as a whole seems to be getting nuttier and nuttier as time goes by.

Atheists are getting nastier and less educated. Seculars are fascinated by the End Of The World and dream of inhabited planets Elsewhere. Christians display all manner of emotional foolishness and offer it up as proof of Salvation.

Excuse me now...I must fall down and twitch in the Faith.

FL

*I speak 3 languages fluently and understand 3 others. That makes six languages understood (I could be Pope!) but I still can't understand ''blagol sadytj jootrtyy!! PRAYZE DA LAWD!''

[ultimate777]

Speaking in tongues: whenever I hear that, I think ''FRUITCAKE!'' ...because that is generally what it is. I've only been in one church where tongues took place - in New Orleans - and I found it quite humorous.

Society as a whole seems to be getting nuttier and nuttier as time goes by.

FL

You keep saying thing like that and I may have at reassess you.

[ultimate777]

I think it unwise to say of one of the gifts God gave/gives to the church and believers through the Holy Spirit, "That's weird, I don't want that."

It is weird, and I certainly don't want tongues. If tongues are a gift, what spirit is giving the ''gift''?

After my first post, above, I remembered that I worked with a man who spoke in tongues and also ''wrote tongues''. What I heard was pure gibberish* and the writing I saw looked like a child's scribbles. Like I said,

Society as a whole seems to be getting nuttier and nuttier as time goes by.

Atheists are getting nastier and less educated. Seculars are fascinated by the End Of The World and dream of inhabited planets Elsewhere. Christians display all manner of emotional foolishness and offer it up as proof of Salvation.

Excuse me now...I must fall down and twitch in the Faith.

FL

*I speak 3 languages fluently and understand 3 others. That makes six languages understood (I could be Pope!) but I still can't understand ''blagol sadytj jootrtyy!! PRAYZE DA LAWD!''

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERY WORD!!!!

My only caveat is I think dreaming of inhabited planets Elsewhere and being fascinated by how the universe might end is not neccessarily bad.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You keep saying thing like that and I may have at reassess you.

Fools never differ.

My only caveat is I think dreaming of inhabited planets Elsewhere and being fascinated by how the universe might end is not neccessarily bad.

You are right, it isn't bad. It is just Entertainment. Too much entertainment is like too much candy: bad for you.

Excuse me now...I'm about to fall flat on my back and twitch in the Faith...

FL

[PaulSacramento]

Also there is two camps of thought in all this as well. One is that tongues of Pentecost was in other foreign languages and the ability to speak in tongues is the ability to speak in other human languages without learning.

The other camp is that is it speaking in an unknown language - the language of angels.

Personally I subscribe to the first camp and the fact that most of tongues that is spoken today is gibberish.

IMHO.

It's not a case of either/or.
For some the speaking in tongues was, as per ACTS, the speaking of a language unknown to them.
For others it is speaking the angelic language.
Personally I don't see the point of speaking an language that almost no one on this planet knows other than to prove to some that the speaker is under divine influence.
IMO, when speaking in tongues was typically mentioned in the NT, it meant speaking a foreign language.

[B. W.]

What many folks miss regarding the issue of unknown languages and the gifts of the Holy Spirit is that 1 Corinthians 13 is set between the two chapters, 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, for a reason. 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 concern the Spiritual Gifts for ministry and unity in the body of Christ.

For example, the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Co 14:39, 40, Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. NASB

Not to forbid what? And all done how?

Problem many mentioned here in this thread is found in 1 Co 13:1-13, the chapter that was placed between the two gifts chapters. People, like this chapter, yet, it was written in the context of gifts of the Holy Spirit, Christian unity, and order.

Regarding unknown languages Paul wrote: in 1 Co 14:2, For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Fact is, this exist and Paul stated not to forbid it. These gifts did not vanish away yet. This vanishing cannot be contextually supported by misquoting 1 Co 13:10. The perfect that comes, is spoke of plainly in Rev 21:6 when the Lord says IT IS DONE at the time of the new heaven and earth. The reason as to why 1 Co 13:12 - I know in part - is that after you write, speak, teach, etc, the gifts of HS,these come to an end, fulfilled in purpose sometime during our mortal life; therefore, new words, gifts, are needed after the others fulfilled their purposes.

For example, I heard a teaching (prophecy as prophecy also involves instructions) on having Faith like Daniel midst troubling times many years ago. It helped me apply what was taught to get through a difficult time in my life; that time ended, so later, guess what … another instruction came – when completed – it vanishes away.

1 Co 13:10-13 is not about the bible being written and we have no need of the gifts anymore. If Jesus is truly the same yesterday today and forever and reneges on not gifts or callings, or promises, how then did he change his mind so that His Bride, the Church, hungers and often so weak and fickle? Therefore, verse 10-12 refer to to something in context along with chapter 12 and 14.

1 Co 12:31 states this: But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. NASB

The more excellent way is for the gifts and ministry operations within the Church to be governed by God’s Agape Love.

What you all reported so far, and I have witnessed myself regarding tongues languages is mentioned in 1 Co 13:1. Without the governing influence of God’s love – it is all a bunch of noise.

Same goes for 1 Co 1:2. You can have all the greatest wisdom and knowledge of the bible and expound the greatest biblical mysteries better than Charles Spurgeon – brow beat other with this knowledge – well without God’s love governing these – it is worthless as nothing.

This applies to 1 Co 13:3 concerning Christian duty and sacrifice that is not governed by God’s love it profits nothing.

These three verses describe the state of much the modern western Church world, today.

The more excellent way of operating in the realm of Holy Spirit gifts and unity in the body of Christ, is to be influence/governed by god’s Agape (love). We do need to put away the childish ways we operate under in verses 1 Co 13:1-3 as 1 Co 13:11 says.

What we have all witnessed is the childish operation of the gifts of languages and others too. God does not take away his gifts and he gave these to his people, even if these are abused and maligned, he still gives and takes not these back. Why – we have to grow up and mature. How – by learning to be influenced and governed by God’s Love. Do we think the bible so foolish to tell us to love one another for no reason at all?

So to illustrate why 1 Co 13 was written to express the more excellent way let me add, for example, tongues, to the love chapter here and you should see better what I am trying to convey:

(Gift of Tongues/Languages governed by God's) Love

…suffers long and is kind… does not envy…does not parade itself

,,, is not puffed up … does not behave rudely … does not seek its own … is not provoked,

… thinks no evil … does not rejoice in iniquity… rejoices in the truth

… bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

This is the more excellent way…

(These gifts of wisdom, knowledge, Faith, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, mercy, healings, working of miracles, prophecy discerning of spirits, tongues and interpretations, administrations governed/influence by God’s Love

…suffers long and is kind… does not envy…does not parade itself

,,, is not puffed up … does not behave rudely … does not seek its own … is not provoked,

… thinks no evil … does not rejoice in iniquity… rejoices in the truth

… bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

Now read Rom 12:9

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good NKJV

Though the gift of language and the rest are misused does not mean we brow beat and act like 10 year olds debating who will play first baseman for the local little league team. Or make like unattended children banging on musical instruments in a music store. We need to learn to be governed/influenced by God’s love in such matters. This governing matures us to act responsible and do things decently and in order and repent of our errors the 1 John 1:9 way.

1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. NASB

1 Co 14:39, 40, T... and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. NASB

So I'll defend the right of believers to exercise all the Gifts and help believers in Christ to mature as best I can in these matters.
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[jlay]

BW,

No one is arguing the content of the text. The argument is whether this phenomenon in Pentecostal circles is the same as what Paul references in 1 Corinthians.

I have attended a Bible study with several men who so called speak in tongues. They often do this under their breath when we are having group prayer. If anything it is disruptive, even at low volume. Why? Because it obviously makes no sense. I trust these men, and have known them for years. I choose to look at this as a secondary issue, as do they. I think I have been very gracious and have even prayed that if this is genuine, I want God to reveal this to me. So far, in eight years, I've received nothing to confirm this to be the case.

Fact is, this exist and Paul stated not to forbid it. These gifts did not vanish away yet. This vanishing cannot be contextually supported by misquoting 1 Co 13:10. The perfect that comes, is spoke of plainly in Rev 21:6 when the Lord says IT IS DONE at the time of the new heaven and earth. The reason as to why 1 Co 13:12 - I know in part - is that after you write, speak, teach, etc, the gifts of HS,these come to an end, fulfilled in purpose sometime during our mortal life; therefore, new words, gifts, are needed after the others fulfilled their purposes.

I would say the burden here is on you to defend this interpretation. The author and audience are both different here.
The context of 1 Cor. is dealing with a church that was abusing and misusing the gifts. He was addressing "tongues" in the sense that whatever was happening in these meetings was NOT tongues at all. That is often overlooked. We shouldn't read too much into the gracious manner in which Paul is dealing with this wayward fellowship, whose meetings have fallen into turmoil and dissaray.

Paul does reference that there is some genuine gift of tongues. Still, the only genuine example we have of tongues is in the book of Acts, and we can deduce that this is nothing like what we see in charasmatic circles today.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Acts 2:6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."
What is clear from this text is that the gift was that listeners heard the speaker and UNDERSTOOD.

[RickD]

At times I've been critical of GotQuestions.org. But I think they got this one correct.
http://www.gotquestions.org/gift-of-tongues.html

Without fail, every time I've heard someone "speaking in tongues", it was to edify/bring attention to self, make one sound super-spiritual, or was disruptive to prayer or someone else speaking(pastor).

"Tongues" that I've heard, has ALWAYS been babble, and not a real language.