More Ice?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Many European countries have wisely adopted and invested in extensive mass transportation over fifty years ago; and we don't even have one bullet train in Southern California. The auto used for urban mass transit is a living dinosaur that should have died years ago. Why haven't car manufacturers designed and marketed a one-person vehicle; where the single commuting driver sits safely in the center? ...MONEY! They would rather sell a way more more expensive car that has 400 hp and 200 mph to people that can only legally drive 75 mph....and less than 5mph in congestion!!! And brainwashed people will go in debt years ...for a virtual toaster with wheels!!! It's an amazing thing to behold..my friends!

Read your Bible, jcgood. The earth is going to pot in the end and there is nothing you can do about it. Sort your garbage and take public transit if you wish, but don't think your actions will change what God has already told us will happen.

For the atheist who may be reading this: We in rich Western nations are very good at exporting our pollution to Third World countries where environmental standards are inexistant or paper tigers. Even the garbage we sort is shipped to Asia, processed, then shipped back to us. We send our recyclables there where they are processed with little regard for the environment, and we add pollutants to this mess with back-and-forth transportation.

Tell me guys, how much people started to user smaller cars and more efficient ones within last 10 years? I know that people are stopping to buy large inefficient cars.

That is true for Europe but it isn't so in North America where a personal car is part of the culture. My wife and I own 3 vehicles...actually, I don't even know a married couple that owns less than 2 vehicles. A friend of mine and his wife own 5 vehicles...

FL

[1over137]

Should not we take care of the creation?

Genesis 2:15
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

[jcgood]

Suburban USA is the land of the giant, noisy SU-vehicles and trucks. Go and look at a Walmart parking lot...and you will see that 70% are huge. Then... look at a photo of the size of cars on a Parisian street. The U.S. conservation efforts are going at a snail's pace....because the car manufacturers are still making shiny, dinosaurs on wheels.

[jcgood]

F.L. - I agree with what you have said. I did not assert that conservation will change God's plans.

However; as good stewards of God's earth...it is unwise to not conserve resources. We do not need to be a slave to the lender/oil rich nations.

The point I was making is to: not be distracted by the climate disputes....and "throw the baby out with the bathwater".
With or without climate issues....the U.S. has not been and still is not a good steward of energy; according to global standards. We have explored the moon and outer space...and we have no bullet trains on earth....We are simply reaping what we have sowed.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Should not we take care of the creation?

The earth isn't the Garden of Eden...even so, it is good to care for creation. Unfortunately, economic activity pollutes. Pollution not getting better, it is getting worse.

In any event, Christians are not here to make the world better because that would be impossible. We are here to promote the gospel.

Suburban USA is the land of the giant, noisy SU-vehicles and trucks. Go and look at a Walmart parking lot...and you will see that 70% are huge. Then... look at a photo of the size of cars on a Parisian street. The U.S. conservation efforts are going at a snail's pace....because the car manufacturers are still making shiny, dinosaurs on wheels.

Americans want SUVs...so what? You can't compare the European situation with the one that exists in the USA. First, distances between European cities are small compared to distances between US cities. Second, Europe has always had a great mass transit system whereas the USA has depended on the individual automobile. Third, gas prices in Europe are very high. The last time I was there, in 2011, fillups in my 4-cyl economy car cost me over $100. Fourth - and most important - culture: Americans love their cars and you are not about to convince them otherwise. Give up! Stop banging your head against the wall!

FL

[Philip]

Some thoughts:

- BOTH global warming believers and skeptics, media people and scientists have long been cherry picking the data that fits their beliefs.

- Not only is the data incomplete, but the present interpretive capabilities of science is insufficient to accurately understand the mechanisms involved - certainly long-term.

- IF global warming (or eventual cooling) is man-made (or even a natural cycle), our abilities to impact and reverse it are crude, likely of little consequence, and certainly won't be fast enough. Politically, poor and third-world countries are only looking at their present needs and economic difficulties - they surely aren't looking long-term or willing to incur enormous costs from carbon taxes and massively expensive changes to their industries, cars, etc.

- Our efforts to reverse global warming - not knowing the mechanism or their impacts well, could make things worse.

- Whether the observed warming/now past (?) warming is just a trend that won't cause near the problems of the doom sayers, doesn't it still make sense to clean up our air and industries as much as possible, to have as high of standards as feasible. Because IN CASE GW will be anywhere near the threat that it's said to be, then we need to remain cautious an proactively prudent.

- But before we begin quaking in our boots, we need to remind ourselves of exactly Who is in charge of the future - and it sure isn't US!







-

[jcgood]

Americans want SUVs...so what? You can't compare the European situation with the one that exists in the USA.

F.L. : Yes ...I can compare wise with unwise...just as Solomon did! Europe had a plan about the transportation of people; and America had a plan about money for corporations....buying cars. We sowed...we reaped...powerful and wealthy corporations...but; there is mass transportation in many U.S. cities that is inferior to that of third world countries.

Your "distance between cities" and "Europe always had" arguments are incoherent. We have roads and technology and busses and trains and money for space exploration. In the 1980's it was decided that "government was the problem" and income taxes were slashed. The U.S. plan since then is: Individually make as much money as you can; pay people as low as you can; yet starve government, but borrow anyway....and go shopping for cars to mortgage. Voila!....no money for those collectivist, socialist bullet trains.

We just need to PLAN to move hundreds of people at once going fast; instead of one person moving in a slow, inefficient dinosaur...and Americans need to slow down and walk ...it's good for us!

Los Angeles dismantled it's extensive trolley system. Why?...money for corporations.

I happen to know the facts about urban USA vs urban Western Europe. You cannot persuade me that sowing wastefully and reaping those undesirable results is not happening here ....especially not with your callous..."so what?"

So what....is a pleasant walk down an urban street in Paris where smaller cars are going slower, quieter, efficient....instead of the horrible, frightening, noisy, dangerous and "look at me SUV freak show" racing at 50 mph. in suburban USA. It's all about overall quality of pedestrian urban life....which is mostly optional in suburban USA.

Again...can we connect the dots between walking and BMI?

Also; I did not assert that I had any hope of the U.S. making any progressive changes......historically; that is not the reactionary, American Way. Just by writing a couple of posts here, can I expect to quench all apathy and ignorance?

I can only hope to enlighten my readers with my commentary on inept U.S. energy conservation policy that I share with others. I am not "fighting" or "banging my head against a wall". I'm 53 and well-traveled. Unfortunately, only 37% of Americans even hold a passport. You don't realize that you live wastefully and noisily until you go somewhere like Western Europe and experience a bullet train surrounded by bilingual, middle class people...then you are not in Kansas anymore coveting a SUV. But, anyone on a computer with Google; can discover the facts for themselves. http://citymayors.com/features/quality_survey.html

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

jcgood, remember this:

- But before we begin quaking in our boots, we need to remind ourselves of exactly Who is in charge of the future - and it sure isn't US!

God is in charge. You really are banging your head against a wall: No one in the US will give up their car because a ''bullet train'' becomes available. Here in Montreal, we have immigrants from France, Belgium and Switzerland. These three counties have excellent - excellent! - public transit systems. Montreal itself has a European model mass transit system with good service but do you know what immigrants want? They want a car, and they go out and buy one as soon as they can. Why? culture, and the low price of cars here*, and the natural desire for independence that a car feeds.

Another thing to remember: this discussion has nothing to do with biblical ''wisdom'', whatever you may say. We are discussing purely worldly matters. Christians are not here to improve the world but to spread the gospel. The gospel says nothing about mass transit vs individual transportation.

So what....is a pleasant walk down an urban street in Paris where smaller cars are going slower, quieter, efficient

You must be talking about Paris, Texas, because the cars in Paris, France, are plentiful, go quickly and make a shaking noise when going quickly on some of those cobblestoned streets!

FL

*a Toyota Yaris in Canada is about $10,000 cheaper than the same car in Europe.

[1over137]

Christians are not here to improve the world but to spread the gospel.

Would not it be great if in the cost of the car would be some amount of money that would be given for ministries?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Christians are not here to improve the world but to spread the gospel.

Would not it be great if in the cost of the car would be some amount of money that would be given for ministries?

Get thee behind me, Satan...I doubt that most people give much to ministries. Prayer is easier and costs less.

FL

[1over137]

[PeteSinCA]

Americans want SUVs...so what? You can't compare the European situation with the one that exists in the USA. First, distances between European cities are small compared to distances between US cities. Second, Europe has always had a great mass transit system whereas the USA has depended on the individual automobile. Third, gas prices in Europe are very high. The last time I was there, in 2011, fillups in my 4-cyl economy car cost me over $100. Fourth - and most important - culture: Americans love their cars and you are not about to convince them otherwise.

Curiously, I just posted this in the news/politics forum where I'm a Mod:

From my house in San Jose in the state of California, traveling 400 miles south would bring me to the city of Los Angeles, in California; another ~150 miles south is the city of San Diego ... still in California. And California is not the largest state in the US; Alaska and Texas are larger. A 400 mile radius from Warsaw would include parts of seven different countries. A 400 mile radius from Vienna would include parts of some eleven countries.

The person to whom I was responding is from Poland, hence my reference to Warsaw. American geography is different from that of EuroLand: towns and cities are farther apart; cities are less compact. Mass transit cannot work in many parts of the US - without >>90% government subsidies, anyway. "Bullet trains" are a nice, bright, shiny, symbol, but in CA would be a massively expensive boondoggle. If one needs to go from the Land of LA to the SF, San Jose, or Sacramento areas, airlines are faster, probably as or more efficient, and as or more flexible and convenient. The current planned "bullet train" is some bureaucrat's brilliant but oxymoronic hybrid of a fast point-to-point train, and a commuter train that stops at every city between the Land of LA, Sacramento and SF or San Jose. Hello! Stopping at every city means it cannot go fast! A car is far superior, as the traveler doesn't have to arrange transportation from home to a train station or from a train station to his/her actual destination.

Within a city, mass transit requires getting to and from the bus stops or train stations, takes twice as long (or more!) as a car, restricts one's employment choices (my commute is ~53 miles round trip - somewhere between a nightmare and nearly impossible by public transit), and impinges on one's ability to do more than go to and from work (IOW, common things like doctor and dental appointments, shopping outside of one's immediate neighborhood, taking evening college classes and more become much more difficult). There is a very practical and valuable aspect to Americans' love of the freedom that cars enable.

More simply, one size does not fit all, nor even most.

[1over137]

And we in Bratislava do not have underground

People would like to use it, but we do not have it

[jcgood]

F.L.
Your reactionary replies to my posts indicate that you may be projecting your own biases here.
It is not rational for you to continue to assert these fictitious assumptions about my faith or my motives here; which I have refuted
in my previous posts. You can always ask a question. By presuming these false asumptions; your replies miss the mark and land in
a parallel universe.

You are in error that this thread is "not about wisdom" or "stewardship"...because without them...there is no conservation.
Joseph saved millions of lives in Egypt from starvation and death...from Wisdom from God and Conservation....and God has not changed!

Your claims that you "know" or can deduce (from history) what people will buy or will not buy; is patently dishonest and moot.
Your view of God's sovereignty seems closer to fatalism than is healthy. Humans are severely limited, but we are not powerless beings.

You have not offered a coherent rebuttal of my advocation for smart and balanced conservation and its importance...
other than "God is in contol"...and "you are banging your head against a wall". If God wills...the wall will come down!

It's like you cannot grasp the intention of the posts; therefore your replies are not helpful and unreadable.
Other people may read them and conclude as I have....that you are not serious.. ie your profile.
Adios...amigo.

[PeteSinCA]

[off topic] I think I understand a certain other thread a bit better ... [/off topic]

- Not only is the data incomplete, but the present interpretive capabilities of science is insufficient to accurately understand the mechanisms involved - certainly long-term.

Climate is a centuries- or millennia-long phenomenon (or trend). Mankind's ability to measure temperature goes back but two or three centuries; worldwide measurement coverage is much more recent, possibly just a few decades. We have indirect "measurement" capabilities, but they suffer from ambiguity and poor resolution. In brief, mankind does not and cannot have the data to make meaningful projections about climate trends, let alone the causes for any trends.