Capitalism That Serves.....Not Deserves

[jcgood]

philip...I concur that capitalism is NOT inherently evil or good....and it can work fairly well....IF...
it is REGULATED appropriately, AND VERY PROGRESSIVELY TAXED....(U.S. history 1950 - 1980).

IE...let reasonable and educated people decide what labor and material is worth....not a blind "market"!...If you have a bad crop...or Katrina happens...
prices should not rise one penny!.. If my God is your God....He will take care of you without gouging innocent consumers!
He hates the sin of oppressing the poor by under-paying them; and then; unscrupulously, over-charging them.

This is what Cooperation looks like...the rich are blessed for giving to the poor...and the poor can be thankful to God for those richly blessed that understand the "genius of generosity"....both at the same time.....
Lord, please help your people see this clearly!

The "market" has become like a false god in the U.S.....and has allowed extreme gaps of wealth that have
continually eroded and destoyed what we used to call the "middle class".

I have shown in other posts with links...that America's most successful
era 1950 - 1980 was due in a large part to...."fettered capitalism" ...which maintained the largest, true middle class
in the country's history. It works well with a very progressive tax rate and reinvestment in the expansion of the industries
to maintain jobs and keep unemployment minimal.

Have you looked at how progressive the tax rates were in the U.S from 1933's FDR - 1981?...the top tax brackets were taxed from 63 - 92% !!!!!
And it was a time when the percentage of home ownership continued climbing progressively higher...
and most households had one income (Daddy's)!...a huge middle class...

And then came 1981...Ronnie...and the neo-conservatives; so they decided to "unfetter capitalism" and slashed the top tax rate to only 50%...in 1981. The Bush tax cuts went
to a "beast-starving" low of 35%! The minimum wage had historically increased ........until 1981; since then, and up until the present day it has stagnated and declined to a 40 year low....while the 1% has had tremendous gain. Truly, our Post-Reagan America loves profit much more than people...

Being overpaid....at the expense of the underpaid and job exportation.....has corrupted and wreaked havoc on the very core of the stability
of the whole nation.

The popular Play was called.....The *Libertarian Plan To Destroy The Middle Class In Thirty Years...
...it was a smashing...box offfice, book selling success!...and here we are...looking at a third world future
for a possible post-potential decaying America.
We must all sow what we reap! *Libertarian umbrella would include radical, Tea Party Patriot, reactionary, fundamental conservatives.

People are freaking out now; yet, they have two incomes and the tax rates are so low (top is less than 40%....plus subsidies for affluent / home owners)
that we will basically have perpetual third world debt forever.

People are living it up..eat, drink and go shopping...while we still have gas to burn!
When will we ever learn? Ask me about fairer pricing? Happy Christmas!!!

[B. W.]

philip...I concur that capitalism is NOT inherently evil or good....and it can work fairly well....IF... it is regulated appropriately.

IE...let reasonable and educated people decide what labor and material is worth....not a blind "market"!...If you have a bad crop...or Katrina happens...
prices should not rise one penny!.. If my God is your God....He will take care of you without gouging innocent consumers!
He hates the sin of oppressing the poor by under-paying them; and then; over-charging them.

This is what Cooperation looks like...the rich need the poor...and the poor need the rich....both at the same time.....
Lord, please help your people see this clearly!

The "market" has become like a false god in the U.S.....and has allowed extreme gaps of wealth that have
continually eroded and destoyed what we used to call the "middle class".

I have shown in other posts with links...that America's most successful
era 1950 - 1981 was due in a large part to...."fettered capitalism" ...which maintained the largest, true middle class
in the country's history. It works well with a very progressive tax rate and reinvestment in the expansion of the industries
to maintain jobs and keep unemployment minimal.

Have you looked at how progressive the tax rates were in the U.S from 1933's FDR - 1981?...the top tax brackets were taxed from 63 - 92% !!!!!
And it was a time when the percentage of home ownership continued climbing progressively higher...
and most households had one income (Daddy's)!

And then came 1981...Ronnie...and the neo-conservatives; so they decided to "unfetter capitalism" and slashed the top tax rate to only 50%...in 1981. The Bush tax cuts went
to a "beast-starving" low of 35%! The minimum wage had historically increased ........until 1981; since then, and up until the present day it has stagnated and declined to a 40 year low....while the 1% has had tremendous gain. Truly America loves profit...not people.

Being overpaid....at the expense of the underpaid and job exportation.....has corrupted and wreaked havoc on the very core of the stability
of the whole nation.

The popular Play was called.....The *Libertarian Plan To Destroy The Middle Class In Thirty Years...
...it was a smashing...box offfice, book selling success!...and here we are...looking at a third world future
for a possible post-potential decaying America.
We must all sow what we reap! *Libertarian umbrella would include radical, Tea Party Patriot, reactionary, fundamental conservatives.

People are freaking out now; yet, they have two incomes and the tax rates are so low (top is less than 40%....plus subsidies for affluent / home owners)
that we will basically have perpetual third world debt forever.

People are living it up..eat, drink and go shopping...while we still have gas to burn!
When will we ever learn? Ask me about fairer pricing? Happy Christmas!!!

No offense meant here but what planet are you from?

Oh Oregon - that explains the

Actually people are hurting in the USA due to the policies of progressives... We do not even listen to the voice of Thomas Jefferson...

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
--
Thomas Jefferson


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
-- Thomas Jefferson


Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-
-
-

[jcgood]

B.W...Thanks for the compliment...I am In Christ, therefore... I am not OF this evil world!!!
Living in Oregon is moot...I was thinking like I do since the 80's.... and I have been here only two years...
I assume your condescension is meant humorously...

Actually people are hurting in the USA due to the policies of progressives... We do not even listen to the voice of Thomas Jefferson...

Define "hurting"....Does your definition include only having two cars and not a hummer as well? I can be funny also. But, I use the satire to make a valid point.

My income is considered to be below poverty level; I am disabled....yet the Lord has provided for me....please get a GENUINE sense of "hurting".
...People in the typhoon ravaged Phillipines....are hurting. People in most of Africa and Haiti...living on two dollars a day or less and are without clean drinking water...
are hurting. Mexico...do I need to go on...?

The fact is these are ALL very corrupt, quasi-libertarian governments run with the power of a militia/policia. Without Charity and the Grace Of God..
almost all of the people in these countries would have died years ago.

I am poor, but I am fed, housed, and blessed by the Lord. I have not been hurt by this government at all.
Actually, my taxes were higher under the Bush regime. Where is the "socialism"?...Where's Santa Claus?...
I am actually faring better than ever....We don't have the disease of liberalphobia here in Southern Oregon...except on Christian radio.

"The 1% billionaire phenomena can NOT happen under any other system.....than U.S. style, entitlement-to-wealth-mindset, regressive,
material hoarding, blind market capitalism"....

I have my God...I don't need to vote for any particular party that falsely claims that they can "fix" everything....
There is going to be a lot of unhappy people here...when this country starts to reap its arrogant, corrupt, and negligent ways.
and so many people are going to be shocked when it crumbles down......unless there are drastic, progressive, radical changes....soon.

But...have no fear..My God is here!!!!!

By The Way....What parallel universe do you hail from? Have you traveled back in time and met Thomas Jefferson?

Well, Lord have mercy on B.W. if he gets sick....they didn't have progressive health insurance back then...I hope you have some gold and some whiskey....hehehe!!!!

Peace/out...

[SkepticalSkeeter]

No offense meant here but what planet are you from?

Oh Oregon - that explains the

Actually people are hurting in the USA due to the policies of progressives... We do not even listen to the voice of Thomas Jefferson...

Can you explain your justification for blaming all of our problems on "the policies of the progressives"? Seventeen quotes, even from (the extremely progressive) Thomas Jefferson, do not add up to a position.

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."
-- Thomas Jefferson

What does urbanization have to do with progressive policies? Are you suggesting that the government should have enacted policies preventing the development of large cities, because that sounds a lot like agrarian communism.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
-- Thomas Jefferson

How do you account for people who work 60 hours a week at a low-paying job but still need help from programs like Section 8 and SNAP to feed and house their families?

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
-- Thomas Jefferson

I agree, but trying to pin the debt and the deficit entirely on progressives is ridiculous. Reagan is the one who really put us into the debt spiral, and G.W. Bush lowering taxes while putting us into two foreign wars with vaguely defined goals and no exit strategies certainly didn't help. You can't paint an accurate picture if you pretend that half of the colors don't exist.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Generally speaking, I agree. Still, how do we fairly decide where to draw the line between serving the greater good and wasting labors on misguided coddling?

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
--
Thomas Jefferson

I generally agree there as well, but again, where do we draw the line?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Not even felons or the dangerously mentally ill? How about radical Muslims? And how do we define "arms," because Jefferson certainly didn't. Do we need to draw a line somewhere? If so, where? And why there?

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Fair enough, but considering that our military is vastly more powerful and more advanced that Jefferson could possibly have imagined, do you really think this even applies today? Seems like we'd all need at least a few Stinger missiles, some kind of anti-armor weaponry, and a pile of small arms in order to have even the slightest chance at protecting ourselves from tyranny, but that also might lead to some unintended consequences.

Incidentally, am I the only one who finds it odd that bearing arms for protection against government tyranny and maintaining the world's strongest military are both conservative ideals?

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Do you think that Jefferson would define "tyrant" as "a democratically elected president whose views you strongly disagree with"?

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
-- Thomas Jefferson

So should we all send our taxes in with a note explaining what they may or may not be used for? Because I don't see how a conservative Christian's disinclination to subsidize Planned Parenthood is any more important than my desire to see my tax money spent on education and infrastructure rather than aircraft carriers and corporate subsidies. Remember, if you get to pick and choose we ALL get to pick and choose.

Although I suppose it doesn't matter either way, since that's just not how taxes work in our country. We actually just dump it all into a pot and rely on our elected representatives to decide how to spend it. If the majority happens to support spending on something that you disagree with, well, tough crap. Get over it. Democracy means that the majority rules and the minority sucks it up until the tide changes and the roles are reversed. If the minority starts calling for the blood of tyrants every time they don't get their way on every little particular it makes for an unworkable political situation. Nobody gets their way all the time.

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately progressive attempts to regulate the banking industry have been blocked by pro-business Republicans. I'm surprised that you used that quote, since it goes completely against your stated position. And by the way, I noticed that Jefferson noted that standing armies are only somewhat less dangerous than banking institutions. Do you agree that our military should be disbanded and only called up in times of declared war?

[B. W.]

jcgood, I was jesting with you...



Things folks assume about what they really don't know about, for instance, myself, should keep comments regarding personal health insurance out of the forum spotlight.

Envy, greed, lusting, coveting what others have is forbidden by God to do. Liberal progressive policies capitalize on these base instinct within the human psyche, in order to exploit the masses for politcal profiteering. This is a far greater evil.

Let me grant you a brief lesson:

In the bible, both OT and NT, the Lord ordained a structure called the assembly of believers. This local assembly, would be responsible to help and aid the poor and those were actually needy. The lame, disabled, widows, orphans, etc... There was no politics involved in securing a voting base sold into slavery handouts in order to keep the ruling elites in power. In fact,within the bible, YHWH frowned upon this mindset and crushed nations for it - it was and still is called exploiting the poor and needy is political profiteering.

Over the years, the progressive left has attacked the church in this country, thru tax codes, theological infiltration, threats, ridicule, etc and began stripping the American Church of its responsibility to the poor and needy. They switched the onus from the church to the state. The state is now the church and folks are to worship it or they'll be punished by the state. The poor and needy are mere pawns in this political game and many people with well meaning intentions are swept up in the Marxist thought didactic and even inject this into the teachings of Jesus.

However, the envy, greed, lusting, and coveting cannot be hid. It is a more than a shame that people are swept up in this mindset think they are holy and righteous for exploiting these debased instincts in human beings for some noble cause that serves the political elites profiteering. That is a great evil and summed up in all things God's hates as written in Proverbs 6: 16, 17, 18, 19x. These things mentioned in the Proverbs text, describe the progressive's left politicking policies.

Now to answer SkepticalSkeeter concerning Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson was not a modern liberal (progressive) he was a classical liberal - in other words he would fit the modern Republican party platform and not the Democrats. Why???

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson understood that in large cities, monarchies and tyrants kept the poor - poor with handouts in order to maintain their power structures. This is true today. You do not need the entire State of Ohio, for example, to win elections, you only need about one forth of the total counties to win. How-why- simple,about one forth of the counties are urban / cites due to population destiny, therefore, the three forths of the rural counties are disenfranchised at the ballot box. So, you keep the inner city folks living in broken homes, feed them racism, class coveting, give them handout, provide poor education and educational brainwashing of victimhood, and you got a willing populace dumb enough to keep the powers that be in power and thus corruption alive...

Also Reagan has passed on and to keep blaming him and Bush for all the moral and social evil in the world is but one example of the state of ignorant brainwashing the left uses. The left is in power now and they own the state of this country. Not those who are long gone in a bygone era.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
-- Thomas Jefferson

This is a plan, as stated by the Communist party way back when, to implement in order to bring down the USA during the height of the Cold War. This Jefferson would not have known but he was well antiquated with human sloth and how governments use that sloth to keep tyrants in power.

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson knows all too wel that the borrower will become the servant to the Lender - an d now in some cities - debtor prisons are coming back. For a nation, this means the borrower becomes a pawn or in slavery to the Lender. To keep free - this must be avoided. Liberal Policies are focused on keep us indebted and enslaved to foreign powers in order that the USA dies in order to pay for the sins of the world...

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson understood how governments waste the labors of people under the pretense of taking care of them. As stated before, this is an old dodge used to use the poor in the means of Proverbs 6:16-19 to secure popular opinion, garner public support, to bash political opponents thusly ensuring disenfranchisement.

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
--
Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson sounds more like Ronald Reagan

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson understood that tyrants seek to disarm their populace so that only they have guns. We have the second amendment for the purpose Jefferson so stated below:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson, shows he is not a progressive of this modern era seeking to use tragedy of lax laws concerning the gravely mentally ill using guns to murder in order to take away the right to bear arms...

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson understood that evil must often be destroyed by the use of war. At this time in our country, the left policies and practices have divided American so bad that this aspect may happen yet, I personally pray that it does not, yet, the left's use of force may lead to this end. So, with backs to the wall - what can one do - die to remain free or watch you country become enslaved and destroyed by conniving manipulative uber liberals ?

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In this quote, Jefferson understood that people will use immorality to take away the rights of a nation which leads to the debauchery of the ruling elites as the new norm.

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

In this quote, Jefferson understood, as stated before, the borrower becomes enslaved and controlled by the lender... So how much do we owe China and who really is the federal reserve and who placed us under this federal reserve banking system anyway?
-
-
-

[jcgood]

B.W. : RE:

Envy, greed, lusting, coveting what others have is forbidden by God to do. Liberal progressive policies capitalize on these base instinct within the human psyche, in order to exploit the masses for politcal profiteering. This is a far greater evil.

You ruined the truth of your quote with the last 5 word sentence...

Here's why:
The Far-right economic policies that have been in place in the U.S. since 1981; are also very popular with most of the affluent left....or "limousine liberals";
...and are not challenged...Why?...
....the universal LOVE and QUEST for money....which the Bible condemns as the root of ALL EVIL.....1 Tim 6:10....

The other destructive...Anti-Christian priciple of the right is....Individualisitic rights that trump collective or community rights.

The Bible is very clear as I have addressed in other posts....Acts 2 ,1 Cor 12, Phil 2.....show clearly that the principles of Individualism;
(that are imbedded into right-wing idoeology and American culture)....are in principle; opposed to the commandment...
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves"; Phil. 2:3...


A Christian worker SERVES The LORD HUMBLY and The Lord takes care of Him... VS...almost all of Corporate America CEOS...DESERVE ARROGANTLY AND SERVE
THEMSELVES to be paid and compensated up to 400 times the average person...and under-paying the "little people" because...I GOT HERE....WITHOUT ANY HELP.....

In conclusion...The only balanced economic and "rights entitlement" policies...IMO... are in the political center (USA history 1950 - 1980).....NOT to the right OR to the left.....
Re-consider your statement above......We can only call evil what the Lord calls evil....

[B. W.]

B.W. : RE:

Envy, greed, lusting, coveting what others have is forbidden by God to do. Liberal progressive policies capitalize on these base instinct within the human psyche, in order to exploit the masses for politcal profiteering. This is a far greater evil.

You ruined the truth of your quote with the last 5 word sentence...

Here's why:
The Far-right economic policies that have been in place in the U.S. since 1981; are also very popular with most of the affluent left....or "limousine liberals";
...and are not challenged...Why?...
....the universal LOVE and QUEST for money....which the Bible condemns as the root of ALL EVIL.....1 Tim 6:10....

The other destructive...Anti-Christian priciple of the right is....Individualisitic rights that trump collective or community rights.

The Bible is very clear as I have addressed in other posts....Acts 2 ,1 Cor 12, Phil 2.....show clearly that the principles of Individualism;
(that are imbedded into right-wing idoeology and American culture)....are in principle; opposed to the commandment...
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves"; Phil. 2:3...


A Christian worker SERVES The LORD HUMBLY and The Lord takes care of Him... VS...almost all of Corporate America CEOS...DESERVE ARROGANTLY AND SERVE
THEMSELVES to be paid and compensated up to 400 times the average person...and under-paying the "little people" because...I GOT HERE....WITHOUT ANY HELP.....

In conclusion...The only balanced economic and "rights entitlement" policies...IMO... are in the political center (USA history 1950 - 1980).....NOT to the right OR to the left.....
Re-consider your statement above......We can only call evil what the Lord calls evil....

your comments betray an erroneous assumption of the mind set of the progressive left which is simply summed up as: Anyone who disagrees with the leftist program, is classed as supporting Corporate greed, slavery, throwing granny off the cliff, hates the disabled, etc and etc.

Thank you for bringing that point out. Such notions are erroneous and do not apply with me, nor conservatives as a whole. The world view you shown must be against all small and large business as this POV assumes all CEO's, all businesses, all corporations are evil - like Walmart and those that lobby favors with Obama... Sorry, that is stereotypical hyperbole laces with mere slogans. You appear to me as having an ax to grind based upon your circumstances and hold great bitterness within your heart which to me seems to be the real issue you are dealing with and Jesus does have a cure for that. That cure does not involve the theft of taking from others to give to you, nor does it involve substituting greed, envy and covetousness as the works of righteousness either.

As for your scripture quotes - it is the lust of money that is the root o all evil. This applies in equal measure towards those on the left who love to take others monies under the disguise of social justice too. WE can agree on bad ceos, big greedy corporations and the third party insurance industry. In fact we can agree on a lot of things that need change. The difference from Captialism and Socialism is this: Capitalism is self correcting and its abuses are corrected whereas in Socialism it is not self correcting and can never be due to the system of crony capatalism that makes socialism work i.e. this is called monopolies.

Also, please try not to remove scripture from its context to support christian communism...
-
-
-

[RickD]

B.W. : RE:

Envy, greed, lusting, coveting what others have is forbidden by God to do. Liberal progressive policies capitalize on these base instinct within the human psyche, in order to exploit the masses for politcal profiteering. This is a far greater evil.

You ruined the truth of your quote with the last 5 word sentence...

Here's why:
The Far-right economic policies that have been in place in the U.S. since 1981; are also very popular with most of the affluent left....or "limousine liberals";
...and are not challenged...Why?...
....the universal LOVE and QUEST for money....which the Bible condemns as the root of ALL EVIL.....1 Tim 6:10....

The other destructive...Anti-Christian priciple of the right is....Individualisitic rights that trump collective or community rights.

The Bible is very clear as I have addressed in other posts....Acts 2 ,1 Cor 12, Phil 2.....show clearly that the principles of Individualism;
(that are imbedded into right-wing idoeology and American culture)....are in principle; opposed to the commandment...
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves"; Phil. 2:3...


A Christian worker SERVES The LORD HUMBLY and The Lord takes care of Him... VS...almost all of Corporate America CEOS...DESERVE ARROGANTLY AND SERVE
THEMSELVES to be paid and compensated up to 400 times the average person...and under-paying the "little people" because...I GOT HERE....WITHOUT ANY HELP.....

In conclusion...The only balanced economic and "rights entitlement" policies...IMO... are in the political center (USA history 1950 - 1980).....NOT to the right OR to the left.....
Re-consider your statement above......We can only call evil what the Lord calls evil....

your comments betray an erroneous assumption of the mind set of the progressive left which is simply summed up as: Anyone who disagrees with the leftist program, is classed as supporting Corporate greed, slavery, throwing granny off the cliff, hates the disabled, etc and etc.

Thank you for bringing that point out. Such notions are erroneous and do not apply with me, nor conservatives as a whole. The world view you shown must be against all small and large business as this POV assumes all CEO's, all businesses, all corporations are evil - like Walmart and those that lobby favors with Obama... Sorry, that is stereotypical hyperbole laces with mere slogans. You appear to me as having an ax to grind based upon your circumstances and hold great bitterness within your heart which to me seems to be the real issue you are dealing with and Jesus does have a cure for that. That cure does not involve the theft of taking from others to give to you, nor does it involve substituting greed, envy and covetousness as the works of righteousness either.

As for your scripture quotes - it is the lust of money that is the root o all evil. This applies in equal measure towards those on the left who love to take others monies under the disguise of social justice too. WE can agree on bad ceos, big greedy corporations and the third party insurance industry. In fact we can agree on a lot of things that need change. The difference from Captialism and Socialism is this: Capitalism is self correcting and its abuses are corrected whereas in Socialism it is not self correcting and can never be due to the system of crony capatalism that makes socialism work i.e. this is called monopolies.

Also, please try not to remove scripture from its context to support christian communism...
-
-
-

B. W.,
I wish I could be as direct, blunt, and to the point as your post here. When I try this approach, it seems to come off as unloving(which isn't my intent). You've managed to cut through the bs, and lay it out there directly and truthfully.

Great post B. W.!!!!

[jcgood]

B.W. RE:

your comments betray an erroneous assumption of the mind set of the progressive left which is simply summed up as: Anyone who disagrees with the leftist program, is classed as supporting Corporate greed, slavery, throwing granny off the cliff, hates the disabled, etc and etc.

Thank you for bringing that point out. Such notions are erroneous and do not apply with me, nor conservatives as a whole. The world view you shown must be against all small and large business as this POV assumes all CEO's, all businesses, all corporations are evil - like Walmart and those that lobby favors with Obama... Sorry, that is stereotypical hyperbole laces with mere slogans. You appear to me as having an ax to grind based upon your circumstances and hold great bitterness within your heart which to me seems to be the real issue you are dealing with and Jesus does have a cure for that. That cure does not involve the theft of taking from others to give to you, nor does it involve substituting greed, envy and covetousness as the works of righteousness either.

As for your scripture quotes - it is the lust of money that is the root o all evil. This applies in equal measure towards those on the left who love to take others monies under the disguise of social justice too. WE can agree on bad ceos, big greedy corporations and the third party insurance industry. In fact we can agree on a lot of things that need change. The difference from Captialism and Socialism is this: Capitalism is self correcting and its abuses are corrected whereas in Socialism it is not self correcting and can never be due to the system of crony capatalism that makes socialism work i.e. this is called monopolies.

Also, please try not to remove scripture from its context to support christian communism...
-

Your reply, erroneously assumes that I am applying these notions to conservatives as a whole. That's patently absurd. Where does that come from?
Your false assertion about me; and false contentions of "businesses being evil" and "theft" are pure fantasy...and laughable as I am a business steward...
and reflect that you DO apply contentious notions to " the other" as a whole...as I expose here.

I am opposing the hypocrisy on the right for being blind and silent (No talk/effort about the need for reformation of these destuctive, libertarian policies)
to the injustice that has been solid U.S policy since 1981;
and blaming the totality of U.S. debacles on fantasies of impending "socialism" and "communism"; when the U.S.
has forced its children to recite the national socialist "pledge of allegiance"...and other national disgraces and horrors.

I have already dealt with the hypocrisy on the left...and I staunchly oppose MANY LEFTIST PROGRAMS...and advocate their reformation...
(not because they are "left" or "right"...but because of who I am in Christ!)
...if you only cared to ask..instead of assume and accuse!

Thanks, but I an well aware of the state of our divided/union's politics.....have you read my blog?

Your false accusations .....1) of taking scripture out of context is an error.

2) your assertion of my support for christian socialism/communism is false and absurd. That's your twisting....and not from the Lord...
and proves that you do not know me....did you want to score a cheap point to those who are dull of hearing...?
As I have plainly stated many times...( but you have refused to hear) REGULATED, PROGRESSIVELY TAXED capitalism worked REALLY WELL from (1950 - 1981)
...and U.S history clearly proves this.
You have falsely asserted that I have something against regulated capitalism....are you so quick to falsely accuse and assert that you don't take
the time to read things that I have stated and asserted more than once here?
And your false assertions...also reflect your denial...that "REGULATED socialism" has been here since FDR...baby....and all those "conservative seniors"
on our Social Welfare program....that many do not need to be on it...are caught in these programs that need to be reformed. But any serious or equitable reform there ..will never happen...OR ..the bulk of that taken -for -granted-senior "conservative support" would crumble AND...there will never...ever... be an elected Republican ever again..

3) somehow I am bitter....me and the Lord are laughing at this one

First : The scriptures shown stand alone as a commandment.....
2) I support....the Lord's commandment clearly goes against the anti-Christian, Individualistic entitlement mentality embedded in
U.S legislative, tax, and economic policy and practice since 1981; which endorses and rewards the hoarding of wealth and the quest
for ever-cheaper labor...to the point of oppression...that reflects in the inordinate rate of divorce, violence, suicide, murder, hoarding, and poverty here..
for a "Christian Nation"...as some, cluelessly; spout as being reality.
3) The Lord Knows that I am not bitter....I will re-paste an excerpt from one of my recent repy posts to you that proves this:

.."My income is considered to be below poverty level; I am disabled....yet the Lord has provided for me....please get a GENUINE sense of "hurting".
...People in the typhoon ravaged Phillipines....are hurting. People in most of Africa and Haiti...living on two dollars a day or less and are without clean drinking water...
are hurting. Mexico...do I need to go on...?

The fact is these are ALL very corrupt, quasi-libertarian governments run with the power of a militia/policia. Without Charity and the Grace Of God..
almost all of the people in these countries would have died years ago.

I am poor, but I am fed, housed, and BLESSED BY THE LORD. I have not been hurt by this government at all.
Actually, my taxes were higher under the Bush regime. Where is the "socialism"?...Where's Santa Claus?...
I am actually faring better than ever....We don't have the disease of liberalphobia here in Southern Oregon...except on Christian radio."

..ladies and gentlemen...are these the words of a bitter man...as I am accused?

Suggestions:
1) It's unwise of you to claim to speak on behalf of "most conservatives"....just speak for yourself...and your glaring errors cannot
be held against you.....What does Solomon say?...
2) please don't accuse a brother falsely...its clearly unloving...comprendes?
This is the second time...you have falsely accused me of being bitter.
....Are there any solid boundaries that still qualify you to be a moderator...here?

...As we have done to the brethren...we have done to the Lord...we are part of the Lords body and members of one another...Clear?
...Your posts reflect the contrary...and go against the other biblical commandments against coarse jesting...Ephesians 5:4...
in your other "I was only jesting" post.

Lord, forgive us as we forgive those who falsely accuse us and openly spread rumours....and give ears to those who you will to hear...
Malachi 3: 4 - 8 Adios..amigo. Peace/Out...

[B. W.]

jcgood...

...recall that I stated that you appear to me and you appear to me to come across as...

These statements are based upon how you appear to me and not that you are...this or that. These nonthreatening statements, used in the world of counseling, are called open ended statements that provide a person some wiggle room in which to explain themselves and have a discussion rather than a dictation. For example, let's try this one jcbgood - you sound like you are easily offended...

How is 'is' that open ended question threatening?

Next, I would like to remind you of some things you said on your other thread entitled Anti-American Sentiment Or Prophetic Warning? you started:

...My job is to persuade the majority...to re-think and reconsider the issues that run contrary...TO EVERYTHING THAT I BELIEVE AND LIVE BY.

…..My job is to expose arrogance, unhealthy bias, hypocrisy, false platitudes, unhealthy nationalism, etc..

Hmmm, do you consider yourself a prophet?

Anyone dare challenge you, you come across as very condemning and this condemning appears based solely upon some preconceived notions you mentioned (in quotes above) – are you aware coming across as a person on a tangent, Mr. Goodman?

By what standards do you use? You claim the bible – if so, have you considered these verses:

Eccl 5:18, 19, 20, Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one's labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. 19 Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God. 20 For he will not often consider the years of his life, because God keeps him occupied with the gladness of his heart.

In the bible in the OT, Moses writes of the blessing God gives and what to do with them. God only required a tenth to be given to his established religious order and that order was to distribute to those in real need. The rest belongs to the person as a gift from God.

The religious order became greedy and fell and God corrected again and again and settled the matter with the advent of the New Covenant which deals with sin. The progressive left has taken this function away from the church and shifted it to government. Government takes a far cry more than 10 percent and squanders it. Have you considered that the Christian socialism practiced by the Puritans after coming to the New World? It did not bode very well for them, did it?

Question to consider: after all the goods and monies are redistributed and the majority have become sloth - how then can a people and nation survive?

What Christian socialism fails to note is human sin nature embedded in all human beings. The bible does declare all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in the book of Romans. This includes the poor too. The glory of God is not socialism or in any man derived political work. When it became so, the Lord crashed that people so hubris does not prevail. Please politely consider this, and do a bit of self reflection for a moment - are not your own words quoted above evidence of a self righteous hubris?

Next, you do not know me nor do you know my own work with the poor, needy, and downtrodden. It involves more than writing a blog and using long quotes from websites without their permission. It does not involve threats and false assumptions about correcting folks to believe what you believe – or else…

I suggest, first, abide by current copyright laws when quoting entire sections off of websites without that websites permission.

Have a good day
-
-
-

[jcgood]

B.W. :
Legalism...Legalism...Legalism...you really can set up a satire...so perfectly!
"..it just APPEARS to me....{insert a prophet's name}...that you are casting out devils in the name of Satan......"
That is the lamest excuse to judge somebody...no matter how you use "psychobabble" to spin it.
Again...your heart is being "READ" loud and clear....your legalese does not hide it.

"you come across as condemning".... to whom?....to you?...to everyone...?....
...why are you careless with God's people? ...It's called editing....please do more!

my rebuttal: my pure-hearted quotes are filtered and skewed through your own issues... legalism? self-condemnation..? low-self-esteem? guilt?
...and until you are free....you will continue reacting to the distorted perceptions and falsely accuse people
about what they have written and their motives;... But you cannot stop...those with hearing ears that may benefit..... Have you heard me?

..example. .Because I am free in Christ, The Truth...I don't want to put the bondage of legalism on anyone else (or I would be a hypocrite)
...Just like Jesus dealt with the pharisees and scribes...who only
thought that they knew God.....but when He showed up in Jesus...how did they respond?....very similar to how I am being responded to here by some.

...It's the same old deal....throwing rocks at God..because of one's own hard-hearted legalistic misunderstanding...If you are looking through the eyes of legalism...I might as well write Chinese to you..brother.....do you read Chinese?

I edit my posts very carefully.....Do you even read them carefully?

The loving way to understand someone is to ask a question....like Jesus teaches ..ie...JC...Are you condemning?....are you upset?...are you from another planet?

Everyone can read your posts and see the arrogant, judgemental assertions....which your flowery speech doesn't hide very well.

Put this up to a vote....question someone... and give them a chance.....or.... subtly acccuse and assert? Which does Jesus teach?

In the bible in the OT, Moses writes of the blessing God gives and what to do with them. God only required a tenth to be given to his established religious order and that order was to distribute to those in real need. The rest belongs to the person as a gift from God.

Another perfectly great scripture references fromm Ecc. 5:18 - 20 But sadly, I say that you have perverted them through your filter of "American Individualism".
You have read into it this fantasy; according to your last eleven word sentence above.

First: The scripture affirms that "The Lord gives Wealth"

Psalm 24:1 "A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it." The Lord's parables clearly speak of talents given
and an an accounting of it. An accounting means that...our lives and everything is the Lords....not our own as you read into it ....
that's why WE ARE FREE...in Christ!

Good news brother!....Jesus came to set us free from legalism...did you not know?...Now you do!!!!

Brother...I say this with love...you are stuck in your legalism of 10%..and you will never grasp our freedom in Christ...unless you let it go!

Did Jesus say... Love God with only 10% of your heart, soul, mind, and strength..?.....brother I am truly sad for you...re-think..re-think...!!!

....Why...do you ask if I am a prophet?....I am in Christ....I am complete in Him...and I am free.....comprendes?

I do...come across "sharply""(more accurate than your false judgement word "condemning")...not to mere "challenges"...
but pure, unadulterated blind hypocrisy....which my sharp rebuttals expose/oppose......which my Lord spoke even sharper when He exposed/opposed it.

One can legitimately challenge any of my statements....but ....personal judgements that you have made...are in black and white for God and everybody to read here.
How can you not understand...If you have written it to me..you have written it to the Lord....?

About your questions about socialism ....you should inquire to those who have known the socialist who wrote the U.S. pledge of allegiance....
you know...the national socialist pledge that me and many other children had to recite daily.....
...but since I am not an adherent of socialism....I am sorry, I cannot help you...

I have pulled out your quotes from my blog....I decided to make my link to the blog available ...so that people could get to know me.
Brother...May you understand freedom in Christ and have clarity of mind...and please.. ask more and assert unknown judgements less...for my sake...and certainly for Christ's. Peace...."the person who asks the most questions...wins understanding"...JC Goodman

[SkepticalSkeeter]

So I say this:

I agree, but trying to pin the debt and the deficit entirely on progressives is ridiculous. Reagan is the one who really put us into the debt spiral, and G.W. Bush lowering taxes while putting us into two foreign wars with vaguely defined goals and no exit strategies certainly didn't help. You can't paint an accurate picture if you pretend that half of the colors don't exist.

And you respond with this:

Also Reagan has passed on and to keep blaming him and Bush for all the moral and social evil in the world is but one example of the state of ignorant brainwashing the left uses. The left is in power now and they own the state of this country. Not those who are long gone in a bygone era.

Man, you managed to pack a lot of stuff that isn't true into that one little paragraph.

I didn't blame Reagan and Bush for "all of the moral and social evil in the world," I blamed them for playing a large role in creating the deficit and the debt, which they did, and then you tacked on a strawman. I said that because it's true. Reagan borrowed a ton of cash and spent it on defense. His plan was to build up our military so much that the Soviets would go broke trying to keep up. It worked, more or less, but it was mostly deficit spending and his plan massively increased the national debt. GWB lowered taxes and then put us into two undeclared wars with no clear goals or exit strategies. Again, he paid for them by borrowing the money, thus massively growing our national debt. Bush, like Clinton before him, also let the banks run wild, which led to the sub-prime mortgage crisis that nearly sunk the world economy. And that $700 billion bank bailout back in 2008? That was also GWB.

So do you believe that debt incurred by Republicans "in a bygone era" somehow doesn't count now that there's a Democrat in the White House? Also, 2008 is a bygone era? Seriously?

While we're discussing things that are wrong, no, "the left" isn't in power. Democrats hold the White House and the Senate, Republicans hold the House, and the Supreme Court generally leans right and is extremely pro-business. Beyond that, the Democratic Party isn't especially progressive, and neither is the President. A progressive president would have pushed for socialized medicine, not accepted a watered-down version of Mitt Romney's plan. There is no "left" in mainstream American politics and nobody is "in power" unless they hold the White House, Senate, and House, which nobody does. Currently the Democrats hold a majority which isn't worth squat unless the Republican minority is willing to participate in governing. So far they haven't been.

Beyond that, no, "the left" doesn't own the state of the country. Obama inherited a massive deficit, a huge debt, a financial crisis, and two wars, and the Republican minority did everything in their power to sabotage him at every opportunity. It's also worth noting that the Southern Blue Dog Democrats tend to be fairly conservative and don't always go along with the President's plans. So anyway, Obama and the Democrats have made his share of mistakes, but so have the Republicans. I'm sorry that the Bush presidency screws up your "blame the left for everything" narrative, but it does. Badly. Where we are now is the culmination of the combined actions of both parties over the last several decades, including Carter AND Reagan and Obama AND Bush...

I also doubt that Jefferson, who was distrustful of Christianity and opposed to having a standing army, would have fit in well with the "modern Republican Party," whatever that is. But don't worry, he wouldn't have been a Democrat, either. I think he'd have been totally disgusted with both sides, actually.

[B. W.]

So I say this:

I agree, but trying to pin the debt and the deficit entirely on progressives is ridiculous. Reagan is the one who really put us into the debt spiral, and G.W. Bush lowering taxes while putting us into two foreign wars with vaguely defined goals and no exit strategies certainly didn't help. You can't paint an accurate picture if you pretend that half of the colors don't exist.

And you respond with this:

Also Reagan has passed on and to keep blaming him and Bush for all the moral and social evil in the world is but one example of the state of ignorant brainwashing the left uses. The left is in power now and they own the state of this country. Not those who are long gone in a bygone era.

Man, you managed to pack a lot of stuff that isn't true into that one little paragraph.

I didn't blame Reagan and Bush for "all of the moral and social evil in the world," I blamed them for playing a large role in creating the deficit and the debt, which they did, and then you tacked on a strawman. I said that because it's true. Reagan borrowed a ton of cash and spent it on defense. His plan was to build up our military so much that the Soviets would go broke trying to keep up. It worked, more or less, but it was mostly deficit spending and his plan massively increased the national debt. GWB lowered taxes and then put us into two undeclared wars with no clear goals or exit strategies. Again, he paid for them by borrowing the money, thus massively growing our national debt. Bush, like Clinton before him, also let the banks run wild, which led to the sub-prime mortgage crisis that nearly sunk the world economy. And that $700 billion bank bailout back in 2008? That was also GWB.

Wow, skeptic true to your avatar name are ya?

Two questions:

One: Has not Obama increased the national debt to 17 trillion dollars - he added more to the debt than the bushes ever did - did he not?

Next, why did Obama follow the same failed economic policies of Bush with bailouts etc and etc?

I think, you should receive a package of grape cool-aid mix. I never thought I would run across political plant on this forum.

Last question: Why aren't you skeptical of Obama as you are of Bush, if not wouldn't that spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e on your part?

If you would like to have a civil discussion actually be civil or expect the same as you dish out in return... Be mindful of the Forum Rules and Guidelines - we do enforce these.

So do you believe that debt incurred by Republicans "in a bygone era" somehow doesn't count now that there's a Democrat in the White House? Also, 2008 is a bygone era? Seriously?

While we're discussing things that are wrong, no, "the left" isn't in power. Democrats hold the White House and the Senate, Republicans hold the House, and the Supreme Court generally leans right and is extremely pro-business. Beyond that, the Democratic Party isn't especially progressive, and neither is the President. A progressive president would have pushed for socialized medicine, not accepted a watered-down version of Mitt Romney's plan. There is no "left" in mainstream American politics and nobody is "in power" unless they hold the White House, Senate, and House, which nobody does. Currently the Democrats hold a majority which isn't worth squat unless the Republican minority is willing to participate in governing. So far they haven't been.

Beyond that, no, "the left" doesn't own the state of the country. Obama inherited a massive deficit, a huge debt, a financial crisis, and two wars, and the Republican minority did everything in their power to sabotage him at every opportunity. It's also worth noting that the Southern Blue Dog Democrats tend to be fairly conservative and don't always go along with the President's plans. So anyway, Obama and the Democrats have made his share of mistakes, but so have the Republicans. I'm sorry that the Bush presidency screws up your "blame the left for everything" narrative, but it does. Badly. Where we are now is the culmination of the combined actions of both parties over the last several decades, including Carter AND Reagan and Obama AND Bush...

I also doubt that Jefferson, who was distrustful of Christianity and opposed to having a standing army, would have fit in well with the "modern Republican Party," whatever that is. But don't worry, he wouldn't have been a Democrat, either. I think he'd have been totally disgusted with both sides, actually.

I ask another here - what planet are your from so I ask you the same... to say that Obama is not progressive and the Democrat party is not either is out right untrue. Obama's stated goal was socialized medicine with an added twist - garner a new voting block. Harry Reads plan is to stonewall and block legislation all in order to blame the Republicans for all the ills of the world. That isn't a strawman - that is truth. The establishment Republicans have the Stockholm syndrome and lean more left than doing what is right. As for any Democrats being Bluedog - that is not so. They vote in clearly designed blocks and support Obama and passed Obamacare without hearing from our Republican representatives. It is true, the Left blames all moral and societal evil upon conservatives - haven't you watched any of the adds? Haven't you heard the rhetoric - you must have as you parrot their talking points here. Regular cool aid drinker.

You know what, I learned the hard way that the left send plants to websites spread its propaganda, as well as to demonize, and ridicule Christians and Conservatives. Their vitriol hate is legendary. So, I am no longer nice with such folks due to their inability to let the truth be made known about their stated goals and agenda. Let me tell you, I am not your enemy - get that??

If you do not stop treating those that disagree with you as the enemy who needs crushed - then we might have a profitable discussion. So far, never met a Obama loving Liberal who ever wanted to have a legit discussion.


Listen to what you just wrote:

Currently the Democrats hold a majority which isn't worth squat unless the Republican minority is willing to participate in governing. So far they haven't been.

If this isn't playing hardball, then I don't know what does. Do you even understand how the founding framers set up a divided government and the reason for doing so? You do not appear to know by making a claim like that. Haven't your read how the Republicans have participated in governing and are shut out of the process by the Dems so the Dems can blame them in order to secure a one party system - their's or the highway?

What you are clearly implying is that if those wicked ignorant republicans who are not under the Stockholm syndrome would just agree with all of Obama and the Democrats all will be well. Hmmm, that one phrase destroys your whole premise in what you just wrote. You are either ignorant of the Left's true goals, or maybe a blind sheep, or an actual paid plant paid to sow discord and propagandize.

Get over it, Reagan had to end the cold war, and Bush had 911 tossed into his lap, and the progressives blame them for doing something about it. Well, Obama has increased the National debt more than those two and has done more to divide this country than any other president. His poll numbers are slipping and he plays golf a lot more than Bush and Obama has done almost everything you guys claimed Bush was doing (but never did). Yet, you are not skeptical of him....

...Noooo... just as you stated...

Currently the Democrats hold a majority which isn't worth squat unless the Republican minority is willing to participate in governing. So far they haven't been.

Jefferson would not side with you either. He'd advocate tossing the whole lot out...

There comes a point when words are worthless and a war is the only means to solve this issue. I hate the idea of open warfare conflict and deplore it immensely. I rather live at peace and mind my own affairs as I am no threat to anyone. However, when the Bill of Rights and US Constitution is be shredded by the Left and the vitriol hate tossed at those who desire peace and live and let live - expect open conflict and much needless blood shed. Is your cause really worth the needless deaths of millions? That is something you need to think hard about...
-
-
-

[B. W.]

B.W. :
Legalism...Legalism...Legalism...you really can set up a satire...so perfectly!
"..it just APPEARS to me....{insert a prophet's name}...that you are casting out devils in the name of Satan......"
That is the lamest excuse to judge somebody...no matter how you use "psychobabble" to spin it.
Again...your heart is being "READ" loud and clear....your legalese does not hide it.

"you come across as condemning".... to whom?....to you?...to everyone...?....
...why are you careless with God's people? ...It's called editing....please do more!

my rebuttal: my pure-hearted quotes are filtered and skewed through your own issues... legalism? self-condemnation..? low-self-esteem? guilt?
...and until you are free....you will continue reacting to the distorted perceptions and falsely accuse people
about what they have written and their motives;... But you cannot stop...those with hearing ears that may benefit..... Have you heard me?

..example. .Because I am free in Christ, The Truth...I don't want to put the bondage of legalism on anyone else (or I would be a hypocrite)
...Just like Jesus dealt with the pharisees and scribes...who only
thought that they knew God.....but when He showed up in Jesus...how did they respond?....very similar to how I am being responded to here by some.

...It's the same old deal....throwing rocks at God..because of one's own hard-hearted legalistic misunderstanding...If you are looking through the eyes of legalism...I might as well write Chinese to you..brother.....do you read Chinese?

I edit my posts very carefully.....Do you even read them carefully?

The loving way to understand someone is to ask a question....like Jesus teaches ..ie...JC...Are you condemning?....are you upset?...are you from another planet?

Everyone can read your posts and see the arrogant, judgemental assertions....which your flowery speech doesn't hide very well.

Put this up to a vote....question someone... and give them a chance.....or.... subtly acccuse and assert? Which does Jesus teach?

In the bible in the OT, Moses writes of the blessing God gives and what to do with them. God only required a tenth to be given to his established religious order and that order was to distribute to those in real need. The rest belongs to the person as a gift from God.

Another perfectly great scripture references fromm Ecc. 5:18 - 20 But sadly, I say that you have perverted them through your filter of "American Individualism".
You have read into it this fantasy; according to your last eleven word sentence above.

First: The scripture affirms that "The Lord gives Wealth"

Psalm 24:1 "A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it." The Lord's parables clearly speak of talents given
and an an accounting of it. An accounting means that...our lives and everything is the Lords....not our own as you read into it ....
that's why WE ARE FREE...in Christ!

Good news brother!....Jesus came to set us free from legalism...did you not know?...Now you do!!!!

Brother...I say this with love...you are stuck in your legalism of 10%..and you will never grasp our freedom in Christ...unless you let it go!

Did Jesus say... Love God with only 10% of your heart, soul, mind, and strength..?.....brother I am truly sad for you...re-think..re-think...!!!

....Why...do you ask if I am a prophet?....I am in Christ....I am complete in Him...and I am free.....comprendes?

I do...come across "sharply""(more accurate than your false judgement word "condemning")...not to mere "challenges"...
but pure, unadulterated blind hypocrisy....which my sharp rebuttals expose/oppose......which my Lord spoke even sharper when He exposed/opposed it.

One can legitimately challenge any of my statements....but ....personal judgements that you have made...are in black and white for God and everybody to read here.
How can you not understand...If you have written it to me..you have written it to the Lord....?

About your questions about socialism ....you should inquire to those who have known the socialist who wrote the U.S. pledge of allegiance....
you know...the national socialist pledge that me and many other children had to recite daily.....
...but since I am not an adherent of socialism....I am sorry, I cannot help you...

I have pulled out your quotes from my blog....I decided to make my link to the blog available ...so that people could get to know me.
Brother...May you understand freedom in Christ and have clarity of mind...and please.. ask more and assert unknown judgements less...for my sake...and certainly for Christ's. Peace...."the person who asks the most questions...wins understanding"...JC Goodman

Mr Goodman,I have one question after reading this - with all due respect are you sane?
-
-
-

[SkepticalSkeeter]

Wow, skeptic true to your avatar name are ya?

Two questions:

One: Has not Obama increased the national debt to 17 trillion dollars - he added more to the debt than the bushes ever did - did he not?

It depends who you ask. They play games with the numbers on both sides of the aisle. Either way, who cares? I didn't say that Obama didn't increase the debt, I pointed out that Bush and Reagan did as well. Your narrative is wrong because you're trying to take a complex issue and turn it into a biased talking-point. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work.

Next, why did Obama follow the same failed economic policies of Bush with bailouts etc and etc?

The idea in both instances was to kick start the economy by shoring up the banks and big employers and getting people some money to spend. I think that the jury is still out on whether either of them was right. Personally it all makes me angry. They should have been regulating banks and avoiding a global financial collapse in the first place. That would have made a lot more sense, but the banking industry didn't want that so it didn't happen.

I think, you should receive a package of grape cool-aid mix. I never thought I would run across political plant on this forum.

That's hysterical. Thanks for lightening the mood. Oh, and watch out for the black helicopters - they're coming for the Christian conservatives.

Last question: Why aren't you skeptical of Obama as you are of Bush, if not wouldn't that spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e on your part?

There's no rule that I have to be as critical of Politician A as I am of Politician B. I'm an independent. Frankly, Obama has been a disappointment, but Bush was a catastrophe.

If you would like to have a civil discussion actually be civil or expect the same as you dish out in return... Be mindful of the Forum Rules and Guidelines - we do enforce these.

Have I not been? And have any of my statements been any more inflammatory than yours?

I ask another here - what planet are your from so I ask you the same... to say that Obama is not progressive and the Democrat party is not either is out right untrue. Obama's stated goal was socialized medicine with an added twist - garner a new voting block.

I'd be interested to see that quote, because it sounds more like something that someone on a conservative blog would say and attribute to him. Also, if he said that his goal was socialized medicine then you have nothing to worry about - he didn't even try.

Harry Reads plan is to stonewall and block legislation all in order to blame the Republicans for all the ills of the world. That isn't a strawman - that is truth.

Again, I'd like to see that quote. Even if Harry Reid was thinking that I can't see him actually saying it out loud. Also, "all the ills of the world" is blatant hyperbole. Finally, it's not truth, it's your opinion. My opinion differs.

The establishment Republicans have the Stockholm syndrome and lean more left than doing what is right.

Seriously? Because last time I looked the closest they'd come to "voting left" was a compromise bill to ensure that the government didn't shut down for the next couple of years. What else were they going to do? When the Tea Party shut the government down last time the Republicans took the blame, and they don't want to walk into that twice.

As for any Democrats being Bluedog - that is not so. They vote in clearly designed blocks and support Obama and passed Obamacare without hearing from our Republican representatives.

What's this? The majority got their way and the minority were left feeling sad about it? Sounds like the entire history of the nation - democracy in action.

It is true, the Left blames all moral and societal evil upon conservatives - haven't you watched any of the adds? Haven't you heard the rhetoric - you must have as you parrot their talking points here. Regular cool aid drinker.

Ads? Seriously? Are you somehow unaware that the Democrats and Republicans spew rhetoric each other on TV and the Internet all the time? How is it that you know about the Democrats saying mean stuff, distorting the truth, and spinning the news, but you've somehow completely missed the fact that the Republicans are constantly doing precisely the same thing? It's called "politics," and it's not a one-sided affair.

You know what, I learned the hard way that the left send plants to websites spread its propaganda, as well as to demonize, and ridicule Christians and Conservatives. Their vitriol hate is legendary. So, I am no longer nice with such folks due to their inability to let the truth be made known about their stated goals and agenda. Let me tell you, I am not your enemy - get that??

If "the left" is doing that then "the right" probably is, too. Frankly it seems like a waste of money, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me. Personally. my goal was to have a discussion about politics. I don't consider you my enemy, but your views baffle me.

If you do not stop treating those that disagree with you as the enemy who needs crushed - then we might have a profitable discussion. So far, never met a Obama loving Liberal who ever wanted to have a legit discussion.

Listen to what you just wrote:

I know what I wrote. How did you read it and conclude that you are my enemy and I want to crush you? And how can we possibly have a legit discussion if you already have me pegged as an "Obama loving Liberal," especially when your previous statements suggest you mean that as an extremely nasty insult?

Currently the Democrats hold a majority which isn't worth squat unless the Republican minority is willing to participate in governing. So far they haven't been.

If this isn't playing hardball, then I don't know what does. Do you even understand how the founding framers set up a divided government and the reason for doing so? You do not appear to know by making a claim like that. Haven't your read how the Republicans have participated in governing and are shut out of the process by the Dems so the Dems can blame them in order to secure a one party system - their's or the highway?

Yes, I know about checks and balances, although I doubt that the Founding Fathers thought about computer-aided Gerrymandering, 24-hour punditry channels, or the Citizens United decision when they were setting things up.

No, I have not read that the Dems want a one-party system, but if I had I wouldn't have taken it seriously. The Democrats don't want a one-party system. Neither do the Republicans. As long as we have two parties we have the illusion that our votes matter. They don't. As long as people like you are 110% certain that "the progressives" intend to destroy you and all that you hold dear and people like my mother are 110% certain that "the conservatives" plan to turn her and everyone she knows into a Wal*Mart wage-slave you'll all be too busy fighting to notice some obvious facts. For example:

- No matter which party is in control of the government, it gets bigger.
- The vast majority of new wealth goes to the top 10%, and they already have 50% of the old wealth.
- Investment is worth vastly more than labor.
- Congress has a 15% approval rating and an 85% retention rating, meaning that we literally CAN'T vote the bums out.
- We no longer have any manufacturing jobs to speak of, and most of our new jobs are low-paying service positions.
- Middle class wages have stagnated since the 1970's, but the cost of living has steadily risen so our money is worth far less.
- We're spending billions on wars on the other side of the planet while our infrastructure is decaying at home.

I imagine that you'll now tell me that those things are the result of a progressive plot to ruin America, but I hope not.

What you are clearly implying is that if those wicked ignorant republicans who are not under the Stockholm syndrome would just agree with all of Obama and the Democrats all will be well. Hmmm, that one phrase destroys your whole premise in what you just wrote. You are either ignorant of the Left's true goals, or maybe a blind sheep, or an actual paid plant paid to sow discord and propagandize.

Nope, that's not what I was implying. I was implying that the Tea Party went to Washington with the stated goal of preventing new laws from being passed, and they've been doing a decent job of it.

Get over it, Reagan had to end the cold war, and Bush had 911 tossed into his lap, and the progressives blame them for doing something about it. Well, Obama has increased the National debt more than those two and has done more to divide this country than any other president. His poll numbers are slipping and he plays golf a lot more than Bush and Obama has done almost everything you guys claimed Bush was doing (but never did). Yet, you are not skeptical of him....

...Noooo... just as you stated...

Get over it? That's the best you've got?

Sure, Reagan ended the Cold War, but did he have to do it through massive deficit spending? Maybe he could have put diplomatic pressure on the Soviets. Maybe he could have raised taxes, thus off-setting some of the spending so that it didn't get added to the debt. The fact that he did things one way doesn't mean that there was no other way to do it.

Same with Bush. He'd been president for almost 8 years when the economy collapsed, so it's kind of tough to argue that his fiscal policy and tendency to deregulate weren't factors. Granted, there wasn't much he could have done to prevent 9/11, but he utterly botched the response. Invading Iraq, for instance, was flat-out insane. Iraq has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING, but in we went. And his plan was to create a friendly democracy there. Again, moronic. Misguided. Impossible. Insane.

As far as Obama, yeah, he's increased the debt. He figured stimulus was a good plan. The economy is better than it was, but the recovery has been slow. We'll see where we are in a year or two. Maybe history will judge that it worked. Maybe not. I don't care about his polls, and frankly, tallying up time spent playing golf is the kind of ridiculous waste of time that conservative bloggers should stop bothering with. As far as doing almost everything else us guys are claiming Bush did, I have no idea what you're talking about. You'll need to be a lot more specific. Oh, and I'm probably not part of this "you guys" you mentioned.

Jefferson would not side with you either. He'd advocate tossing the whole lot out...

I agree. I said as much.

I think he'd have been totally disgusted with both sides, actually.

There comes a point when words are worthless and a war is the only means to solve this issue. I hate the idea of open warfare conflict and deplore it immensely. I rather live at peace and mind my own affairs as I am no threat to anyone. However, when the Bill of Rights and US Constitution is be shredded by the Left and the vitriol hate tossed at those who desire peace and live and let live - expect open conflict and much needless blood shed. Is your cause really worth the needless deaths of millions? That is something you need to think hard about...

Are you not seeing how blatantly you're contradicting yourself? You hate the vitriol that the evil, scum-sucking, America-hating, Constitution-shredding, progressive villains are always spewing at peace-loving, Christian patriots that just want to live and let live and be left alone? You don't see it? Really?

Also, can you give me a short list of ways in which the Left has shredded the Constitution?