The Faith vs. Works argument.

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
ManofGod
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The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by ManofGod »

This a paper I wrote a little more than a year ago that I thought I could share with you all and contribute to the forum. My goal was to not write in favor of either side of the controversy but to show once again that there are no discrepancies in the Holy Scriptures. I love to hear your feedback, and if you have any criticisms, feel free to let me know. Enjoy :D

Romans 3:27 vs. James 2:14-26 --- Resolving the Faith and Works Conflict

There are two teachings presented in the Bible, one by the Apostle Paul and one by James the brother of Jesus, that compose the root of what has sometimes been viewed as a considerable Biblical contradiction. Paul emphasizes in many of his epistles that man is justified by God because of his faith. James emphasizes the necessity of works as a means for justification. My goal here is to support and defend both teachings, but most importantly to explain why the two viewpoints are not contradictions so that if a question arises concerning the faith vs. works conflict, we may in accordance with properly organized Biblical theology and other various helpful verses answer knowledgably on the subject for the edification of others.
First, I will present the doctrine of Romans 3:28, where Paul declares, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” In later passages he continues to expound upon and defend this statement saying in 4:2, “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ABRAHAM BELIEVED IN GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” In 11:5-6, he makes an especially strong defense of God’s grace saying, “(5)In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. (6)But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” Many other of Paul’s epistles repeat this teaching, and it is well-established that God does not offer His forgiveness as a result of anything that we achieved in and of ourselves, nor did we attain our salvation because of some qualifying action that we accomplished. The statement of Romans 11:8-9 is unquestionable in the fact that, if our salvation were to be a result of independent efforts, then it would no longer stand as a gift of God’s grace alone, which makes way for boasting as it says in Romans 3:27, “Where then is there boasting? It is excluded.” Therefore, God sanctifies our spirits through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in order to bless us for our faith because He loves us, not because of anything that we have accomplished, for by this great sacrifice, the requirement to follow the Law in order to be approved before God was made no longer necessary. In light of this longstanding revelation, an important detail of Romans 3:8 must be understood, and that detail is the fact that Paul specifically stated that a man is justified apart from the works of “the Law”. Paul never once throughout his writings condemned taking action upon ones faith as a Christian by doing good deeds, nor does he ever state that works done in the name of the New Covenant are useless or misguided. He was simply explaining in this passage what the initial elements involved in receiving salvation are, and for additional clarification, he states and defends in later passages that actions which involve works of the Law have no place of necessity in sanctification or reconciliation to God according to the new and better covenant in Christ Jesus. Historical context and circumstances should also be considered when reading these passages as me may recall that during the entire time of Paul’s ministry, Pharisees, scribes and Judaizers were still strongly promoting the false supremacy of the Law and its works, such as the supposed necessity of circumcision and other oppressive laws that excluded and denied the divine grace found in the New Covenant of Christ. Paul dealt with this often, which is why he addresses such heresies in Romans 4:9-10 saying, “(9)Is this blessing then on the circumcised , or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, ‘FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.’(10)How then was it credited? While he was circumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised…” To avoid the presumption that Paul looks down upon works, we must remember that he was simply stressing the absolute essentiality of faith as the means by which God grants us His grace in order to combat the lies of the Judaizers. Therefore, we are assured that a man is truly justified by faith as God rewards it in full with the salvation of Jesus Christ, and it can in that sense be credited as righteousness, and righteousness apart from the Law at that. The Law must now just be seen in a different light, such as it is viewed, not negatively, but in a supported manner in Romans 3:31, “Do we then nullify the Law by faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
Now, with the doctrines of faith and grace established, let us read the second passage of subject, James 2:14-26.
“14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
In this passage we encounter numerous alarming statements which seem at first to argue against Romans 3:28 and the doctrine of justification by faith, but if we merely consider the points made in the previous section and take into account the general qualities of Christian service to God, this section of James does not have to be construed as a contradiction. To avoid doing so, we must first make sure to comprehend the passage as a whole to avoid confusion. The truth of the teaching can only be understood in the harmony of each individual explanation and defense flowing together to compose its overall theme. First of all, just as Paul was not condemning works, James here in no manner is belittling faith. He is rather disapproving of a dead faith as he states in verse 17, “Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead being by itself.” We already know with complete assurance that genuine faith is asked of man by God in order to receive atonement, but in addition to that, He also desires our spiritual progress through the process that He wants to work in our spirits. This divine spiritual development is spoken in 2 Corinthians 3:18, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.” God created our souls to have joy in His righteousness, for He loves us and wants us to be joyous in Him, but how can this take place if we do not participate with Him in a manner to where He can bestow upon us His spiritual blessings? How can we declare Him as our King and yet not serve Him, but instead go about our lives as they were before, waiting for a myriad of blessings in our spirits even as we neglect His work? Can we in the same sense expect to paint a picture on a canvas without picking up the brush and using paint? The obvious answer is no, so if we desire to paint, then let us diligently use that brush and paint to create a beautiful scene. According to that same logic, if we want to be free from sin and death and are given salvation, let us diligently go out and do all things for the name of the Lord, so that in return, we may fulfill our obligation to Him by blessing Him as He has so graciously blessed us. In light of this, we must certainly concur to the insufficiency of mere belief in God as a display of love and of commitment to His calling of righteousness and to the ministry of His Kingdom, for any person is able to believe in God without having the willingness to let God change their spiritual state or the course of their earthly lives. That is why Jesus clearly calls to believers in the Scriptures for complete sacrifice, just as we see in Matthew 16:24 where He proclaims, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow after me.” This means that we must fulfill anything Jesus calls us to do, no matter what, for only our complete self-denial and obedience is worthy of Christ. This faithful subjection evidently entails the undertaking of doing good works, and certain other Scriptures that testify to the necessary position that works and good deeds should hold in our lives as God’s children can be found in passages besides James 2:14-26. For example, if there is any passage that prevents the unfounded criticism of prioritizing works as an important element in our Christian walk, it is Matthew 5:16, “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven.” In this noble command we are assured that our works in the name of Christ can be an effective form of witness, and can thus be in that sense a way to glorify God; we must only avoid “practicing our righteousness before men to be noticed by them” as warned against in Matthew 6:1 so that all our works may be aimed solely toward the glorification of God. Another important verse to consider that correlates with works is John 15:1-2 where Jesus also says, “(1) I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. (2)Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.” Our good works can thus be seen as good fruit in the sight of our Father, who will then in a spiritual sense “prune” us so that we may produce more good works, or fruit, through which we can please Him. We must also harken back to the strong argument James himself gives in verses 15-16, “(15)If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,(16)and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,’ and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? This statement attests that works do truly both justify and testify to God and to man our faith, for in doing them we are merely being obedient to the commands of the Father God and showing Him our willingness to obey His will.
With the teachings of faith and works being established, we must now understand the importance of their sequence according to how they operate in our relationship with the Almighty God. All preceding explanations in this writing may now be summarized and thus successfully concurred in the following statement: The first step in the process of adoption to God is that our spirits are justified by God through faith, and that we are brought to Him by His grace apart from any actions we have ever made. John 6:47 affirms this saying, “Truly, truly I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.” The second step in being a child of the Lord is that we must in all self-denial affirm our faith to Him by committing our lives and energies to any good works that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God calls us to do, just as the faith of Abraham and Rahab was justified by the brave and selfless acts they accomplished, for Jesus assures that our righteous actions toward others are rewarded in Matthew 10:42, “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cold cup of water, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” It is the most important thing to understand that as we live our lives for the glory of God, we must have in equal proportion both faith and works. In the uplifting of faith, Hebrews 11:6 says, “And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe the He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” In the uplifting of works, Hebrews 13:16 says, “And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.” If both of these teachings are viewed according to their proper working association, then we will know that the overemphasizing or condemnation of either one should never be allowed, for if we read what the Word says on both of them, we will find that no real conflict exists between them. James does not deny that we receive atonement because of faith; he only states that our faith is justified by our actions. Nor does Paul declare works for the Lord as futile and wrong; he merely emphasizes the invalidation of works of the old Law. The problem we must avoid in our relationship with the Lord is to not rely on either one more than the other to serve Him. If we offer God only faith without acting upon it with actions that glorify Him, it will be harder to grow closer to Him because of our stationary mindset concerning the expansion of His kingdom. If we focus too much on works, we will become prone to thinking too highly of ourselves and forget that our good works were predestined by God for us according to His will as it says in Ephesians 2:10. In the end, following both teachings can be a source of blessing to God and to ourselves, and as we pray, God’s Spirit will teach us how to balance the two qualities of our relationship so one will not overtake the other in position of importance.
I hope this writing has served as an edifying and adequately comprehensive explanation to the reader concerning faith and works, but most importantly, I hope I have convincingly displayed yet another case of the fact that the Bible does not contradict itself, for the Holy Spirit of God does not contradict or alter itself as He is the author of all Scripture. Through the blessing of His eternally consistent Word, the Lord will faithfully and lovingly reveal to His children the bounties of His wisdom and the divine guidance of His righteous will, and as we are so graciously given these things through His Word, we may be assured that, as we diligently study it for the glorification of our Father, we will never have to encounter any disagreement or conflict in it, and we should therefore praise Him unceasingly for the complete wisdom and uniformity of His holy Scriptures. :amen:
Last edited by ManofGod on Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What you are is God's gift to you, what you become is your gift to God.---Hans Urs von Balthasar.

To say of what is that it is not, or to say of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true, so that he who says of anything that it is, or that it is not, will either say what is true or what is false.--- Aristotle.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by jlay »

There are two teachings presented in the Bible, one by the Apostle Paul and one by James the brother of Jesus, that compose the root of what has sometimes been viewed as a considerable Biblical contradiction. Paul emphasizes in many of his epistles that man is justified by God because of his faith. James emphasizes the necessity of works as a means for justification. My goal here is to support and defend both teachings, but most importantly to explain why the two viewpoints are not contradictions so that if a question arises concerning the faith vs. works conflict, we may in accordance with properly organized Biblical theology and other various helpful verses answer knowledgably on the subject for the edification of others
My first question is why would your starting point be that there are no contradictions in the Bible? In a plain reading, there could not be two verses more contradictory. You have made the assumption of no contradictions without actually giving reasons as to why this need be the case. You emphatically say,
I hope I have convincingly displayed yet another case of the fact that the Bible does not contradict itself, for the Holy Spirit of God does not contradict or alter itself as He is the author of all Scripture.
Ok, you've said it, now prove it. Because, your thesis does nothing to this affect.

James and Paul were two different authors who were writing to two different audiences. Both, I believe, were writing under inspiration of the HS. This assumption (no contradictions) has led you to present a Gospel that is actually a works gospel.
The second step in being a child of the Lord is that we must in all self-denial affirm our faith to Him by committing our lives and energies to any good works that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God calls us to do
What this infers is that salvation is at the minimum a two step process, and that unless one takes this 2nd step, then they are not a child of the Lord. You use the term MUST. We must deny ourselves and commit our lies to doing works. I don't know about you, but I know a lot of believers who aren't doing this, or at least aren't doing it well. In your claim, you are saying that faith in Christ is not sufficient to save, and that we MUST fulfill these obligations (self-denial and commitment). Regardless of your intentions you have whole heartedly presented that salvation is by works.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by ManofGod »

jlay, I know salvation based on works is biblically incorrect, but the statements I made about living our lives as God's children centered strictly around scripture. The wording concerning "steps" and making salvation sound like a process was off kilter grammatically and conceptually, but at the time I wrote this it was just a personal project, so it wasn't quite prepared for an actual audience. y#-o It is an absolute truth that without faith, any Christian life is useless. If we pray for something but do not have the faith to know that God will grant it, our prayer life will suffer greatly; if God commissions us to a task, and we have no faith that He will help us do it, then will never be able to truly follow his will; if someone challenges our belief, and we are shaken by their affront because of a lack of faith, then we will be constantly burdened by a lack of spiritual foundation. It is crystal clear that faith is vital, but Scripture also clearly shows the importance of committed service and self denial. You disapproved of my use of the word must, but Jesus Himself plainly stated in Matthew 16:24. This makes it clear that Jesus desires a strong and genuine commitment, which He is utterly worthy. He of course does not expect anyone to live a perfect life, but to argue that complete self-denial is an element of Christianity is to argue with the word's of our Savior Himself. The passage I gave from James in the post makes an undisputable defense of why God desires us to affirm our faith before Him through good deeds, as do the several other scriptures I listed. I am not saying that if we at anytime neglect to do a good deed that we will lose our salvation. That kind of thinking is silly and biblically unsound. I am saying that if we continually deny opportunities to follow God's will by not helping others in some way, then we have a dead faith, just the passage clearly states.
As far as your criticism of the structure of my paper, I'm afraid I don't exactly understand what you mean or what you think should be corrected :? . The goal of the paper was to resolve what seemed at first like a contradiction, (just as you said) but was rather just two separate teachings that can through proper interpretation abide harmoniously in the mind and behavior of God's children. I referenced many scriptures to do so, and other than the faulty wording I mentioned earlier, the message is sound.(Not because of my own efforts, but because of the fact that I based the writing around Scripture.)
I hope my explanation helps you better understand the intentions behind my post, and I hope we can reach a better understanding between each other if you wish to discuss further about the subject at hand. God bless and Merry Christmas jlay :amen:
What you are is God's gift to you, what you become is your gift to God.---Hans Urs von Balthasar.

To say of what is that it is not, or to say of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true, so that he who says of anything that it is, or that it is not, will either say what is true or what is false.--- Aristotle.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by jlay »

MOG,

I think one area where many have slipped into error is failing to distinquish the terms 'believer' and 'disciple.' Often these are used interchangably and with a great bit of damage to the Gospel in my estimation. The damage being unresolved contradiciton. I take exception with your statement that there are no contradictions in the Bible. First off, we assume that contradiciton is a bad thing. It can be, but this is not always the case. Just because things contradict does not mean that these cannot be resolved. Before you jump in and say, "But that's exactly what I'm doing," let me stop you and say, no, it is not. In your examples, you are assuming that Paul and James are both writing to the same audience and that both are discussing the same issue of justification. (or that justification is being applied in the same way by the authors.) This is how many approach the text. Paul says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5) Paul's writing in Romans is a doctrinal exposition on justification. James' writing is not, and the context confirms this to be the case. I think if James were here today and we asked, "If you could recommend any chapter of the Bible to offer people today a systematic explanation on how one is eternally justified, then what would it be," I feel condifent that James would NOT refer us to a couple of verses in his epistle, but instead would direct us toward the 3rd and 4th chapter of Romans.

Of course Paul does educate us of the importance of works in the life of the beleiver. Paul offers a summary of this to the Ephesians. (Eph. 2:8-10) But never will you see Paul say that works makes a believer. Instead Paul is careful to distinquish what one MUST do to be saved (and thus become a believer) and what a believer SHOULD do now that he is a child of God. For Paul's Gospel, tHere are literally no strings attached to salvation, despite what men like John McCarthur have done to distort the Gospel. The Gospel is not, "If you will believe, and then by the way, show some works to prove to us that you really are a genuine convert, then God will save you by faith alone. It's faith alone afterall, but your works will necessarily follow real faith. You see REAL faith, it has works, but it is really faith alone."

Let me give you an example regarding contradiction. The OT testament clearly teaches that there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, and that God (through Israel's economy) does make distinctions on how He deals with humanity. Yet in the NT it is stated that there is NO difference between Jew and Gentile, and that God is no respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34) Up to that point Peter wouldn't even enter a Gentile household. Both of those things cannot both be true in the same way at the same time. To say both are true, in the same way at the same time is a contradiction. I believe they do contradict, and I also believe they are both true. The difference is which of those is APPLICABLE today? If both are applicable TODAY, then we have an unresolved contradiction. However, if one position is new revelation that superceeds or nullifies the prior, then there is no contradiction. Peter received NEW revelation that superceded the previous revelation. I hope this makes sense.

If we start equivocating the terms believer and disciple, then guess what? Unresolved contradictions. Theologians have danced around and tried to resolve these contradictions while maintaining that a believer is a disciple and vice versa. RC Sproul (quoting Luther) says, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone." It sounds clever, but has done nothing but create confusion, which in turn has led to a false Gospel.

Let me give an example from your thesis.
Matthew 16:24 where He proclaims, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow after me.” This means that we must fulfill anything Jesus calls us to do, no matter what, for only our complete self-denial and obedience is worthy of Christ. This faithful subjection evidently entails the undertaking of doing good works, and certain other Scriptures that testify to the necessary position that works and good deeds should hold in our lives as God’s children can be found in passages besides
I would not necessarily conflate the good works Paul refers to in Eph. 2:10 to what Jesus is speaking of here. In this case, Jesus has a clear audience (His disciples) and a clear calling. If this is a universal salvific message, then Paul is a false teacher, because Jesus is clearly saying that one MUST take up their cross (whatever that means), deny themselves and follow Him, if they are to partake. From scripture, we can see that Jesus asked some people to follow Him, and from the text we can see that He literally meant, follow Him. If He went to Capernaum, guess what? They followed. We often want to spiritualize this, but I think this is taking liberty with the text. Jesus was literally asking Matthew to deny himself, leaving job, home, family, etc. and follow him wherever He went.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by ManofGod »

Hello again jlay :wave:
First, I don't quite understand why you say that I thought both writers were speaking on the same subject as to how one is saved. I know fully well that they were not, and I know fully well and made it clear through my paper that salvation comes by faith and God's grace alone. Because the teachings were taught to Christians,(just different Christians living in different places), they were speaking to the same TYPE of audience, just not literally the same exact people. I also made it clear in my reply to you that if we do neglect our works, its not as if we will not lose our salvation, and also that our works are an element of our lives that are insuffiecient in enabling us to truly live for God in many areas. But, if we constantly avoid the opportunity to fulfill God's will through whatever means of charity or assistance, then we are being disobedient and are thus deadening our faith(not losing our salvation, deadening our faith). Hebrews 11:6 say without faith it is impossible to please God, but can a dead and disobedient faith please Him? Of course not; to say otherwise is illogical. We are still His children if we disobey Him, but if you look for the verses I listed in the post about works, you'll see that God desires us to give of our services and, in whatever way we can, be a good witness of Christ's love by doing good deeds for others in the name of God.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I feel your example of a contradiction concerning the former distinction between Jews and Gentiles was a bit exaggerated and not well supported. The only distinction God made between Israel and the surrounding nations was that He didn't want them to follow their pagan customs. As far as moral treatment, God dealt with both groups the same; when pagan nations were sinful, He would punish them; when Israel was being sinful, He would punish them also. When a non-Jewish person repented of their ways, like Nebuchadnezzar, God showed mercy, and He did the same thing with His own people Israel. Both groups were equally subject to their flesh before Christ came, and when the new covenant was established through His death and resurrection, it came to both groups simultaneously. I don't know why you said Peter never entered the household of a Gentile before his vision. I see nowhere in Acts that affirms that statement, but rather I see in the first chapter of Acts where Jesus said to preach the word to ALL nations as an indication that Jesus was encouraging the removal of alienation between the Jews and the Gentiles. The vision was His way of further encouraging Peter to spread the word of the newfound unity now established through the new covenant. The message of that vision was not a "new revelation", but the message of a completed and universal revelation. There is no new revelation when it comes to moral matters, or else God is not an unchanging God as His word proclaims Him to be, and I think it is a dangerous term to use as it lines itself up with Christian cult semantics such as Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses. :(
I do agree with you that Matthew 16:24 and Ephesians 2:10 are not as related as I made them sound since works may or may not be a form of self denial, so I guess I should say our subjection CAN entail good works as opposed to MUST, so thank you for pointing that out. It does not make sense to me though that Jesus' message was exclusively for His disciples since Matthew and the others had already left their families and jobs and homes for some time, so proper interpretation would require that it have a spiritual meaning. I didn't want to make it seem like I was implying that Matthew 16:24 was a salvific message. Any good student of the Word knows that salvation is summed up in John 3:16, a message of faith and grace. Works cannot cleanse from our sin no matter how many we do; they are just very important part of our time on earth as a Christian. I think Jesus was just saying that if someone has the desire to live properly and committedly for Him, there needs to be a denial of ones self, mainly in the sense of denying ones flesh which is what Jesus meant when He said to carry ones cross. The cross represents crucifying ones flesh as Paul said in Galatians 2:20.
The reason I gave more attention to works in my paper is that at the time I had read some Christian writings that treat works like a taboo reference that should be shunned when discussing Christian living, but now that we have been discussing the subject, I know that I should give more attention to the faith section. That will then make my paper a more legitimate study on the faith and works discussion. I will make it a point to edit my original post in the future, and I want to thank you again for pointing out some of the faulty statements in it.
I know we still disagree on some points, but now that we have cleared up some other points, I'm glad to see that we can agree on the fundamental doctrines of God's holy word. Until next time, keep sharpening iron with iron brother. God bless. :amen:
What you are is God's gift to you, what you become is your gift to God.---Hans Urs von Balthasar.

To say of what is that it is not, or to say of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true, so that he who says of anything that it is, or that it is not, will either say what is true or what is false.--- Aristotle.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by 1over137 »

I would like to ask how one is to understand verses in bold:

Hebrews 10:26-39
Christ or Judgment

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive [j]what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But [k]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [l]preserving of the soul.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by jlay »

1over137 wrote:I would like to ask how one is to understand verses in bold:

Hebrews 10:26-39
Christ or Judgment

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.[/b] 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
What is the 'knowledge of truth,' spoken of in this verse, and what is the sin? Based on v.29, and the beginning of the chapter, it appears that the truth is the fulfillment of the New Covenant, and that the sinning refers to the Jews continued to rejection of the new covenant through Christ.
Consider the verses that preceed.
(Hebrews 10:16,17) "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
Again, the writer quotes the OT to show them (Hebrews) that there is a new covenant, and that sacrifices at the temple only pointed towards Christ. It is dealing several things, likely including Judiazers who claimed that salvation required one to continue the sacrifices to be saved, which is a false Gospel that results in judgment.

I think it is first important to ask, who is the audience? It is no coincidence that the book is titled, Hebrews.
For example, the writer quotes this verse, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Who are "His people," in this context? Israel. Unless someone would like to argue that God is going to judge the sins of the church.
Under the dispensation of grace we know that God has already judged sin for all time. God is not waiting to judge your sin, or anyone elses. It has been judged at Calvary. The judgement to come will have to do with whether one has received Christ or not. v.26 is referring to the temple sacrifices and that they are not sufficient to save, so why put your confidence in something that is powerless to save.

Consider the implications of a gentile centered eisegesis of this verse. If anyone willfully sins, then there is no sacrifice for sins. If you apply this to Christ's sacrifice then it really unwinds and destroys the entire Gospel message. There is no assurance or security of salvation. A true believer can willfully sin once, undo their salvation, and then be helpless to be saved again. In that case, we are all doomed, and have no hope.

Shame on those who have so wrecklessly mishandled these verses and have preached a gospel that is performance based. Why would the same chapter have an unresolved contradiction that on one hand, sins will be remembered no more, and yet willful sins will be remembered. It doesn't make sense, and the reason it doesn't is because it is a bad method of interpretation.
Last edited by jlay on Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by jlay »

First, I don't quite understand why you say that I thought both writers were speaking on the same subject as to how one is saved. I know fully well that they were not, and I know fully well and made it clear through my paper that salvation comes by faith and God's grace alone. Because the teachings were taught to Christians,(just different Christians living in different places), they were speaking to the same TYPE of audience, just not literally the same exact people.
MOG,
As to whether that it is clear, I will defer to your clarification in your last post. It was your use of the term 'MUST' in the later part of the thesis that caused the confusion in my mind, as well as the mention of works as the 2nd step. But, would you also clarify what exactly you mean by the same TYPE of audience. I suspect that we do in fact have different views on this. Blessings
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by ManofGod »

Hi jlay
By same type I meant that the two different groups of recipients were both still Christians, though of course Romans was written to the Christians of varying nationalities and Hebrews was to... well the Hebrews. You are most definitely right in establishing the identification of the recipients. Historical background is always important to know when reading the Bible. I don't know if the difference in nationality between the audience in Romans and in Hebrews bears any weight in the discussion, but if does I would like to gain that information if you could tell me. :esmile:
To jump in on the disagreement between you and Byblos, I'd have to say you are correct in your stand against the misinterpretation of the verse he listed. I use to think the same thing he did about that verse, but it doesn't actually say if one receives salvation and keeps on willfully sinning he will lose the sacrifice for sins; if it did, that would make Christ's ultimate sacrifice pretty useless. y:O2 I'm also positive as you are that it is addressing the matter of a person hearing the truth, knowing in his heart that it is true, but ignoring it and continuing his life with disregard to the truth he now knows. The same can be said for the parable of the sower. The seeds that fell on the rocks and blew away and the seeds that birds snatched are not people who actually received the gift of eternal life, but rather people who received the knowledge of it, but in the weakness of their flesh did not truly commit to it. The birds represent Satan, but Jesus said in John 10:28, so those seeds cannot represent God's actual children. I have gone back and forth about whether one can lose their salvation, and the one verse that keeps me from going towards the belief of once saved always saved is Colossians 1:22-23, but I'm sure if the wording of that verse means what I think I does. I guess when it comes losing or not losing salvation, it comes down to if a person was ever really saved or not, but I lean towards eternally intact salvation as John 10:28 says.
Glad to see we can agree stuff now eh. :lol: God bless. :amen:
What you are is God's gift to you, what you become is your gift to God.---Hans Urs von Balthasar.

To say of what is that it is not, or to say of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true, so that he who says of anything that it is, or that it is not, will either say what is true or what is false.--- Aristotle.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

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ManofGod wrote:Hi jlay
By same type I meant that the two different groups of recipients were both still Christians, though of course Romans was written to the Christians of varying nationalities and Hebrews was to... well the Hebrews. You are most definitely right in establishing the identification of the recipients. Historical background is always important to know when reading the Bible. I don't know if the difference in nationality between the audience in Romans and in Hebrews bears any weight in the discussion, but if does I would like to gain that information if you could tell me. :esmile:
To jump in on the disagreement between you and Byblos, I'd have to say you are correct in your stand against the misinterpretation of the verse he listed. I use to think the same thing he did about that verse, but it doesn't actually say if one receives salvation and keeps on willfully sinning he will lose the sacrifice for sins; if it did, that would make Christ's ultimate sacrifice pretty useless. y:O2 I'm also positive as you are that it is addressing the matter of a person hearing the truth, knowing in his heart that it is true, but ignoring it and continuing his life with disregard to the truth he now knows. The same can be said for the parable of the sower. The seeds that fell on the rocks and blew away and the seeds that birds snatched are not people who actually received the gift of eternal life, but rather people who received the knowledge of it, but in the weakness of their flesh did not truly commit to it. The birds represent Satan, but Jesus said in John 10:28, so those seeds cannot represent God's actual children. I have gone back and forth about whether one can lose their salvation, and the one verse that keeps me from going towards the belief of once saved always saved is Colossians 1:22-23, but I'm sure if the wording of that verse means what I think I does. I guess when it comes losing or not losing salvation, it comes down to if a person was ever really saved or not, but I lean towards eternally intact salvation as John 10:28 says.
Glad to see we can agree stuff now eh. :lol: God bless. :amen:
The distinction is important. James addressed his letter to, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad."
This would indicate that his intended audience is Jewish. I would find this important mainly because Paul has the distinction of being the, "Apostle to the Gentiles," and his epistles are the revelation given to guide and direct the church, the Body of Christ, today. I'm always amazed at how quickly legalists (not implying you here, btw) refer to James when the issue of free grace is discussed.
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"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by PaulSacramento »

I don't really see any "contridiction" or conflict of any sort.
Paul and James are NOT preaching different gospels or even POV.
What James is stating is that good works comes from faith, it is a by product of faith.
Paul is stating that good works are NOT what saves a person for the obvious reason that good works done with the ulterior motive of "saving oneself" are "tainted works.
Jesus himself makes that statement when He points out those that put on a show for others with their "good deeds" and their "long winded prayers".
In short both James and Paul agree that one is saved by faith and BOTH agree that from this faith should come good works out of love and not for recompense.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

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PaulSacramento wrote:I don't really see any "contridiction" or conflict of any sort.
Paul and James are NOT preaching different gospels or even POV.
What James is stating is that good works comes from faith, it is a by product of faith.
Paul is stating that good works are NOT what saves a person for the obvious reason that good works done with the ulterior motive of "saving oneself" are "tainted works.
Jesus himself makes that statement when He points out those that put on a show for others with their "good deeds" and their "long winded prayers".
In short both James and Paul agree that one is saved by faith and BOTH agree that from this faith should come good works out of love and not for recompense.
Paul, I'd like to press you a little on this. Are you saying you don't see any contradition with what James says here?
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
And Paul, here: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)


I hear people make statements like good works are a by-product of faith, but it's not always clear what they mean by that.
If we take Eph. 2:10 we know that genuine 'good works' are in fact the produce of God for which He created us to walk in. It seems clear from this verse that good works are not the result of our efforts. However, it also implies that there is a response required of us if we are to walk in them. Can the believer fail to respond? And if so, can we really say that works are a by-product of faith?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by PaulSacramento »

jlay wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I don't really see any "contridiction" or conflict of any sort.
Paul and James are NOT preaching different gospels or even POV.
What James is stating is that good works comes from faith, it is a by product of faith.
Paul is stating that good works are NOT what saves a person for the obvious reason that good works done with the ulterior motive of "saving oneself" are "tainted works.
Jesus himself makes that statement when He points out those that put on a show for others with their "good deeds" and their "long winded prayers".
In short both James and Paul agree that one is saved by faith and BOTH agree that from this faith should come good works out of love and not for recompense.
Paul, I'd like to press you a little on this. Are you saying you don't see any contradition with what James says here?
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
And Paul, here: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)


I hear people make statements like good works are a by-product of faith, but it's not always clear what they mean by that.
If we take Eph. 2:10 we know that genuine 'good works' are in fact the produce of God for which He created us to walk in. It seems clear from this verse that good works are not the result of our efforts. However, it also implies that there is a response required of us if we are to walk in them. Can the believer fail to respond? And if so, can we really say that works are a by-product of faith?

Look at what James wrote and what you bolded.
I would have bolded ONLY and not the "not" part.
James was addressing those that believed that since they were saved by faith that any (good) works were irrelevant ( an excuse to do nothing it seems).
James seems to be suggesting that a person's faith, that a person claiming to have faith in Christ, is justified by His works and we can understand why he says that because good works is the VISUAL by-product of faith in Christ. Doing good works is a sign of our Faith and we are justified in claiming to be a believer and having faith because our good works demonstrate such.
Paul is commenting on HOW we are saved and that by that faith we are saved and that we are NOT saved by what we do, we are saved by God.
Paul's comment makes it clear that what is done FOR the purpose of being saved actually is counter to the salvation process because by the very nature of the INTENT behind the work ( boasting) we have "contaminated" that work.


James and Paul both agree that Faith saves and from that faith, GOD works IN US to produce good works and those good works are "evidence" of that Faith and are what "justify" the faith we have to others.
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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by 1over137 »

Just a small note:

There is a thread on shame and reading this thread too, I wish to note that, yeah, people may get frustrated when they think they do not have good works, but question is, when one is that mature that he can be known for having good works. Instantly after conversion, or not? Our maturing is a process. Takes time, right? We are to trust Christ, love Christ, hope that he will be transforming our hearts, right?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: The Faith vs. Works argument.

Post by RickD »

1over137 wrote:Just a small note:

There is a thread on shame and reading this thread too, I wish to note that, yeah, people may get frustrated when they think they do not have good works, but question is, when one is that mature that he can be known for having good works. Instantly after conversion, or not? Our maturing is a process. Takes time, right? We are to trust Christ, love Christ, hope that he will be transforming our hearts, right?
Yes Hana. All believers should continue trusting Christ. When believers continue trusting Christ, then God transforms our hearts. Or, one's initial trust in Christ justifies, and one's continued trust in Christ sanctifies.

Of course it's not our trusting that justifies and sanctifies. It's Who our trust is in. He justifies and sanctifies.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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