Problems with the OT

[neo-x]

Neo wrote:
Lets face it, O.T is brutal. If you fail to honor the sabbath, by law you are to be stoned. You DESERVE death, for working on a saturday. Today if you are going to show somebody God's love, this part is going to present a problem. This sounds silly by today's standard. Mind you, not the commandment, but the punishment that it carries. And the cleansing rituals are more absurd by todays understanding, would you like sprinkling blood in your house? I won't. But that is what Israel was commanded to do. Its a work base system, given to people who were not redeemed by grace.

So tell me Neo, OT saints weren't saved by God's grace?
Were they saved by works?

I think the only way to be saved is through Christ's blood. Your faith doesn't save you, but whom the faith is in. Unless you are saying that God's grace works without Christ's blood, I am not sure I follow you.

In a nutshell your statement can be read as saying that there is salvation without Christ's blood. Just by having faith one can be saved, but that is wrong imo.

I think the redemption of all humanity was done at the cross, covering both the ot Saints and the future ones to come. Yes the ot Saints were justified by their faith, but were they saved in Christ? That is something I am not sure happened back then.

And all of this is a side track, because it highlights my point more that the law, good and perfect still can't save because it is written that those who fulfill the law will be saved, and you certainly can't put your faith in the law, can you?

[Gman]

I do take issues because God in O.T, and how he does things, is a striking contrast to the benign image we see in the N.T. And for many that is a stumbling block.

Lets face it, O.T is brutal. If you fail to honor the sabbath, by law you are to be stoned. You DESERVE death, for working on a saturday. Today if you are going to show somebody God's love, this part is going to present a problem. This sounds silly by today's standard. Mind you, not the commandment, but the punishment that it carries. And the cleansing rituals are more absurd by todays understanding, would you like sprinkling blood in your house? I won't. But that is what Israel was commanded to do. Its a work base system, given to people who were not redeemed by grace.

The truth is, the law has an ugly face for the sinner (and that means every person). Its requirements are of the flesh, it was given to people at a time, when they lacked what we now have in christ. So yes I have big problems with the O.T. If I hadn't known Christ, the God of the O.T would sound equally horrific to me too. And the law would be horrible because it would find fault with me even if I did my very best.

Its easy to say you have no qualms with the law, because you are not judged by it and you know it, you run on grace as you yourself say. But to the law breaker who has no promise of a redeemer, the law is death. I can imagine people today who, without christ can't have any promise in the law. If you dishonor your dad mum, you need to die, if you slept with the same sex you need to die, if you are prostitue, you need to die. If you work on sabbaths, gone. If you honor another god, you need to be stoned to death. If your animal wounded another man and you knew about it, you die again and your animal with it. And then comes the cleansings, witgh the sexist mindset. The man needs 7 days to be cleansed but the women needs 14 days. Even the offerings of both genders differ.

Then you have the canaanite wars, where God told even to kill children and preganant women. Honestly I understand why that could be needed to be done but I do not understand how do I square it with Christ and what he taught. It shows a God who is very different. This has always led me to believe that either:

The writings are less inspired than I take them to be, meaning God never ordered such a thing but Israel put it down like that. Means they wrote what made best sense to them in light of their circumstances.

Been down this road before.. The Bible clearly states that Christ saved us from the "penalty" or "curse" of the Law by becoming a curse for us Galatians 3:13, Romans 5:6-8. He most certainly did not come to destroy G-d's commandments or Law Matthew 5:17. Following Torah (or you say the law) does expect disobedience but makes explicit provision for it (in the OT times) by mentioning sin offerings for offenses and thus avoiding a curse. As an example look at King David who committed adultery and murder. Nevertheless G-d forgave him after he repented 2 Sam 11:1-12:25; Psalms 32, 51. So there is a way out.. And that also came through or was perfected in Christ.

Therefore, even though they can bring curses, there is alway a way out of them and that true way is Christ. But that gives us (you and I) no right to throw His commandments under the bus either.

or

That the law is done away with via progressive revelation and there are reasons here which are not documented which might explain more.

Either way I know that without Christ, there is nothing in the O.T law which inspires me or is for my good. The law ultimately brings death because my sin is in me.

The God that we know in Christ, and the apologetics we employ to portray his workings, tells of a God who is wisdom and purity, who loves the sinner. Infact so much that the O.T sounds too childish at times at what these people had to go through just to pray. And today the severity of such punishments make no sense.

In my understanding, these two covenants are mutually exclusive.

If you want to believe that, that is fine, but G-d in the NT also kills and will punish as well.. Acts 5:1-10, Acts 12:23, Revelation 6:1-7, Revelation 8:7-11:15, Revelation 16:2-17, Revelation 20:8-9. Ultimately however it is G-d's kindness that lead us to repentance Romans 2:4.

And Paul and others are claiming that the laws of G-d are actually good..

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends.

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

[neo-x]

Been down this road before.. The Bible clearly states that Christ saved us from the "penalty" or "curse" of the Law by becoming a curse for us Galatians 3:13, Romans 5:6-8. He most certainly did not come to destroy G-d's commandments or Law Matthew 5:17. Following Torah (or you say the law) does expect disobedience but makes explicit provision for it (in the OT times) by mentioning sin offerings for offenses and thus avoiding a curse. As an example look at King David who committed adultery and murder. Nevertheless G-d forgave him after he repented 2 Sam 11:1-12:25; Psalms 32, 51. So there is a way out.. And that also came through or was perfected in Christ.

Therefore, even though they can bring curses, there is alway a way out of them and that true way is Christ. But that gives us (you and I) no right to throw His commandments under the bus either.

I think you are missing the point, of course the offerings gave a way out, but they didn't wash away sin at all. They only substituted the punishment. The man remained sinful, not a new creature unlike what he would be in christ. And yes it was perfected in christ therefore the curses of the law and its hold on the sinner evaporated with christ, because the penalty of the law transferred to him.

If you want to believe that, that is fine, but G-d in the NT also kills and will punish as well.. Acts 5:1-10, Acts 12:23, Revelation 6:1-7, Revelation 8:7-11:15, Revelation 16:2-17, Revelation 20:8-9. Ultimately however it is G-d's kindness that lead us to repentance Romans 2:4.

Very true, God punishes in the N.T...but for what reasons? Is it because of the law or its curse? no. They knowingly lied to the holy spirit, committed the only unforgivable sin and thus died. And the king also died but was not a believer. These two are IMO exceptions, not the rule.

Now, lets talk about throwing God's commandments under the bus, as you say I have been doing. The thing is, the law is holy and just and good, but as paul himself says that same law brings death to me and is a curse too. There are many verses which if I pasted too, we can find that paul speaks against holding the law, infact calling law and the old covenant, done away with.

My opinion is that the law is not perfect, if it was, we would not need Christ. The law was a shadow, it was incomplete, it could not save, it could punish only. The law is good for those who can keep it to the dot. For the sinner without christ, it is death and least inspiring. It was a work based system, you get what you sow, eye for an eye, life for a life. It was written in stone, unlike christ's covenant which is spirit. The latter is everlasting, and the gloryt of the former fades away the same way the glory from moses' face did once he had been in the presence of God.

I know you hold the torah close to your heart, so I will leave it at that. We both know each other's position, that is enough. I know you don't agree with me, its fine.

[Gman]

I think you are missing the point, of course the offerings gave a way out, but they didn't wash away sin at all. They only substituted the punishment. The man remained sinful, not a new creature unlike what he would be in christ. And yes it was perfected in christ therefore the curses of the law and its hold on the sinner evaporated with christ, because the penalty of the law transferred to him.

That is true that the offerings could never wash away all sin.. They were merely teaching tools until Christ came. And we can't even follow G-d's commandments completely. But the point here is that the Holy Spirit helps us to obey G-d and His commandments so that sin can be addressed. That is why we need G-d's commandments so that we don't harm others and G-d.. John 14:15.

Very true, God punishes in the N.T...but for what reasons? Is it because of the law or its curse? no. They knowingly lied to the holy spirit, committed the only unforgivable sin and thus died. And the king also died but was not a believer. These two are IMO exceptions, not the rule.

While I don't play G-d, I think that He could judge anyone He wants whether it's a believer or not a believer.. If we get out of hand, I would hope that G-d would correct us.

Now, lets talk about throwing God's commandments under the bus, as you say I have been doing.

I never said that you are personally throwing G-d's commandments under the bus.. You say that G-d's commandments are no longer pliable, but I don't know how you are handling this personally..

The thing is, the law is holy and just and good, but as paul himself says that same law brings death to me and is a curse too. There are many verses which if I pasted too, we can find that paul speaks against holding the law, infact calling law and the old covenant, done away with.

Paul never says that the OT commandments are done away with. Sure some have been reinvented under Christ such as the sacrificial commandments, but not obliterated. Remember many of the commandments are permanent commandments such as the sabbath Exodus 31:16-17, Leviticus 16:31 and the land covenants Genesis 17:7-8, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18. .

My opinion is that the law is not perfect, if it was, we would not need Christ. The law was a shadow, it was incomplete, it could not save, it could punish only. The law is good for those who can keep it to the dot. For the sinner without christ, it is death and least inspiring. It was a work based system, you get what you sow, eye for an eye, life for a life. It was written in stone, unlike christ's covenant which is spirit. The latter is everlasting, and the gloryt of the former fades away the same way the glory from moses' face did once he had been in the presence of God.

I know you hold the torah close to your heart, so I will leave it at that. We both know each other's position, that is enough. I know you don't agree with me, its fine.

Again I would look to what the scripture says about G-d's laws.. Romans 7:12. We can't keep it totally, but we keep it anyway because we are told to 1 John 5:3-4.

Also I don't claim to keep Torah close at my heart.. I never have.

[neo-x]

Again I would look to what the scripture says about G-d's laws.. Romans 7:12. We can't keep it totally, but we keep it anyway because we are told to 1 John 5:3-4.

I think it is a matter of proof texting but no worries.

[Gman]

Again I would look to what the scripture says about G-d's laws.. Romans 7:12. We can't keep it totally, but we keep it anyway because we are told to 1 John 5:3-4.

I think it is a matter of proof texting but no worries.

No problem.. We just disagree. Take care.