Papias and the death of Judas

[Christian2]

SAYINGS FROM THE FRAGMENTS OF PAPIAS:

4. Apollinarius: "Judas did not die by hanging, but lived on, having been cut down before he was suffocated. And the Acts of the Apostles show this, that... falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This fact is related more clearly by Papias, the Talmid/disciple of Yochanan/John, in the fourth (book) of the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord as follows: Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a wagon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent, that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface..."

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_ ... 5681873627

I have books quoting the early church fathers, but I do not have access to them now.

I am confused.

Apollinarius lived long after Papias, yet it looks like Papias is quoting Apollinarius.

Could someone set me straight on this? Thank you.

[Gman]

I've heard this explained a number of different ways.. My belief if that Judas did not hang himself but committed suicide by putting a sword on the ground, blade up, then fell on it. Acts 1:18. In Matthew 27:5 the Greek word for hang "apanchomai" can also mean "choked up." So Judas didn't really hang himself but was choked up in grief. So much that he killed himself by sword later in a field.

Committing suicide by sword was common in the OT times.. Consider Saul..

1 Samuel 31:4 "Saul said to his armor-bearer, Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me. But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it."

Either way, he DID commit suicide..

[Christian2]

I've heard this explained a number of different ways.. My belief if that Judas did not hang himself but committed suicide by putting a sword on the ground, blade up, then fell on it. Acts 1:18. In Matthew 27:5 the Greek word for hang "apanchomai" can also mean "choked up." So Judas didn't really hang himself but was choked up in grief. So much that he killed himself by sword later in a field.

Committing suicide by sword was common in the OT times.. Consider Saul..

1 Samuel 31:4 "Saul said to his armor-bearer, Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me. But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it."

Either way, he DID commit suicide..

I'm interested in what I posted in the OP.

[Gman]

I'm interested in what I posted in the OP.

Perhaps I didn't understand.. What is your question?

[Jac3510]

SAYINGS FROM THE FRAGMENTS OF PAPIAS:

4. Apollinarius: "Judas did not die by hanging, but lived on, having been cut down before he was suffocated. And the Acts of the Apostles show this, that... falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This fact is related more clearly by Papias, the Talmid/disciple of Yochanan/John, in the fourth (book) of the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord as follows: Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a wagon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent, that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface..."

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_ ... 5681873627

I have books quoting the early church fathers, but I do not have access to them now.

I am confused.

Apollinarius lived long after Papias, yet it looks like Papias is quoting Apollinarius.

Could someone set me straight on this? Thank you.

I don't see where it looks like Papias is quoting Apollinarius. If I may put it in good forum speak, it looks to me like it should be read as follows:

"Judas did not die by hanging, but lived on, having been cut down before he was suffocated. And the Acts of the Apostles show this, that... falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This fact is related more clearly by Papias, the Talmid/disciple of Yochanan/John, in the fourth (book) of the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord as follows:

Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a wagon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent, that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface..."

FYI, this is a rather disputed passage in several ways. It may not be an authentic report from Papias. In fact, it may no even come from Apollinarius (although that would surprise me less). I'm not particularly impressed with the transmission history as I understand it. Here's a link with some source material you might find helpful.

http://chronicon.net/blog/papias/papias ... -laodicea/

[Christian2]

Thanks Jac. Your response was very helpful.

I think in a case like this one we need to look at the inspired Scriptures. Something that might contradict those Scriptures must be discarded.

[Kurieuo]

Thanks Jac. Your response was very helpful.

I think in a case like this one we need to look at the inspired Scriptures. Something that might contradict those Scriptures must be discarded.

Unless you're a non-believing skeptic, then you always discard the Scriptures.

[Christian2]

Thanks Jac. Your response was very helpful.

I think in a case like this one we need to look at the inspired Scriptures. Something that might contradict those Scriptures must be discarded.

Unless you're a non-believing skeptic, then you always discard the Scriptures.

Here is some dialog on the subject:

http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2...s-of-laodicea/