USURY...The Forgotten Evil

[jcgood]

Philip:

And what "system" might that be? "Greedy speculation?" Yes, that exists. But it is mostly a stereotype. Why? Because people have choices, and most will naturally pursue reasonably priced housing and products. They don't HAVE to buy exorbitantly priced houses or anything else. People doing so aren't willing to prudently live within their means. And those building a house can't wait until most people have the cash to pay for it. So how are people able to afford what they need now (housing) without having the money NOW? They must borrow - which is also a service with a cost. And a person's cost is going to be far more with renting as opposed to buying - over the long run. So if one can gradually (over 20-30 years) be allowed to live in a property BEFORE they pay it off - ALSO FOR 20-30 YEARS - then I'd say that is a good deal. Encouraging people to get a mortgage on a reasonably priced house that they can afford is "madness?" Hardly! Owning has MANY benefits.

With capitalism, the market sets the price. No one is forced to buy a ridiculously over-priced housing - as that is THEIR choice. If housing in one area is outrageously priced (often due to excessive regulatory and taxation issues), then one has the right to go to a market/geographic area in which pricing is much more affordable. I can tell you that landlords are also easily and often greedy - owning/buying is the far better alternative. In fact, highly overpricing ANYTHING is not a smart business move. Everyone in business has overhead costs. And everyone in business MUST make a reasonable profit or they won't REMAIN in business very long. People that offer products, houses - or ANYTHING - at reasonable pricing will always be far more successful.

And words like "system" are merely the parameters within how business can be legally done. Businesses are run by PEOPLE - in every system, some that are fair and some that are greedy. And the alternative to capitalism, government/system-wise, is that the state sets pricing and controls all. And we can see how inept and corrupt that can quickly become - with a only a king, head of state or a few elites telling everyone else how they must transact business. Capitalism also offers freedom to being as personally generous with one's pricing as they see fit. Other forms of government dictate EVERY aspect of a transaction - cost, everything - a terrible system. A system in which the state asserts to know what it thinks (and DEMANDS) is best for everyone. In such systems, you can't be generous, as you must sell for what the state says is whatever they want it to be. In fact, in such systems, that everyone has the same costs is key to propping up the economics of that system. And without a reasonable profit motive, the quality of everything dramatically erodes.

Where is the proof that...." people have choices, and most will naturally pursue reasonably priced housing and products. They don't HAVE to buy"?
Drug addicts have choices too....
What world view elevates "choice" to some noble or virtuous status? Where are all these wise people..when most are lost and don't know God?

In my world view....shelter is a need...just like food. Most people are not Christian = most people are unwise...so a system that relies heavily on people's choices...eg...democracy, capitalism...etc.... is inherently....unwise...and unsustainable....boom...labor....capital....bust....labor....boom... bust...drought..China..capital....corruption....debt...slavery..death...

Is that how Joseph ruled Egypt?....No he had a plan...inspired by God....this is not America...this is not "free market"....no Joseph COMMANDED...people to save the
wheat.....very wise....very Un...American...Un...democratic...Un....capitalistic....any questions?

A system in which the state asserts to know what it thinks (and DEMANDS) is best for everyone.

You are decrying the very system that God used at that time.

Can't you understand....that it's NOT about the system...it's Whether Or Not Almighty God is behind that system.....?

Your world view seems to be....State =bad...people's choices=good
...and world history does not support your view.

Any system can be propped up with debt.....Castro's Cuba could fare pretty well with the recent 100% public debt/GDP ratio...like the U.S currently enjoys...while Cuba's is usually only 19%

The proof is that unwise and horribly overpaid people ...speculatively.....overpay for houses, lands,etc. and hoard them....and inflate the dumb market....and...this is a major reason why almost all those renting are "forced to" economically...and of course....rents are set at dumb market rates.....and then you have underpaid people paying 50 - 75%..of their income for shelter....

...and nothing is left for God's work and the economy....it's a cycle of corruption, perpetual madness and vanity.

......and those who are unwise cannot discern that wealth earned through market manipulation....is not genuine...and is moth-eaten...even if looks good on television and sells that fake, proud, nationalistic image of "success"....

So...instead of more money for God in the offering.....it's going to someone's "investment"....in the world.....not the Kingdom.....

It is clear in Deut. 8:18....."But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

....not a stupid, blind market that pays entertainers...thousands % more than teachers...regardless of their value....and has created a indebted culture of slaves to shelter and college degrees...

If usury was capped at 5%...and progressive real estate taxes were in place to curb real estate inflation, and everyone was paid in 1964 wages.....and we had a real economy that actually produced equitable results we could see a lot more people being able to save up to $60,000+ ....and home prices would be about 40% less...

....the above scenario could not happen...because America's system is: unwise majority voting for a corrupt, polarized Congress...passing many unjust laws....that are compromised and arbitrary.

The only Hope is Eternal Life....that is knowing the true God and Jesus Christ....John 17:3

People that love and know God through Jesus Christ......are the salt of the earth and are lights in the world....not corrupt economic systems in materialistic cultures....
...that give selfish "choices" to people.....for selfish and vain reasons.....

In a country where...we are "forced" to drive giant, heavy, overly powerful, overly expensive, wasteful vehicles....that can only safely and legally drive about one third of speed capacity....because the corporations tell us....what to drive....

Where "choice" would actually be useful; eg...to custom order a reasonable, single-driver center-seated car....the corporations continue to "tell us what to drive"...and continue to blindly churn out bloated, dual front passenger left side driver only...wastemobiles...

.....or a very small less than 500 sq ft......detached home......(not mobile)

...again...in America....it's not about people's choices....where it needs to be......and where individual choice should not even be in the picture....that's the American way....

I don't understand why any Christian would spend time defending and applauding the world..eg America..and the systems of the world..eg. capitalism.....
There is nothing noble or virtuous about this boasting.... ...I can name hundreds of reasons why this culture is offensive and offer a better system ...than the unsustainable intoxicated one U.S. citizens are "forced" to endure with.

...in light of...Phil. 2:15..."so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world"....

I was crucified as well as my U.S. citizenship.....it only has temporary legal usefulness.....If I was a Christian in Havana Cuba....I would still be crucified to my citizenship....and my God shall supply all my need according to His riches in Christ Jesus.....

...not according to one's limited understanding of corrupt, passing away...US style economics.

The audacity of a people and a document that equates...."all men are created equal"........INTO "all men are wise enough to vote their government into place....and decide the value of men's labor.......is the folly of U.S. history....equating wisdom and justice....with materialism and might......JC Goodman

But...how well do we know Him...and the Power of His resurrection?......Gasp!

[Philip]

FL, showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances is NOT the social gospel. The social gospel is when merely trying to better people's lives is ALL that a church is concerned with, without connecting good works to the sharing of the Gospel. If we ONLY are concerned with changing a man's earthly circumstances and yet he still dies in his sins, what have we truly accomplished? But when we do good by helping people's circumstances it often provides many opportunities to share the Gospel with them. Romans 2 tells us that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance." Psalm 145 tells us that the "Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over ALL that he has made." In Acts 14 Paul tells his unbelieving audience that God "does good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” Clearly, GOD is concerned with the welfare of men. And yet His first concern is with their spiritual condition. It doesn't mean that our kindness, just as God's, can't also be utilized as effective (and needed) tools to lead unbelievers to repentance. In fact, God models this for us. When we bless unbelievers, we glorify God.

[Philip]

If usury was capped at 5%...and progressive real estate taxes were in place to curb real estate inflation, and everyone was paid in 1964 wages.....and we had a real economy that actually produced equitable results, we could see a lot more people being able to save up to $60,000+ ....and home prices would be about 40% less...

Yep, and we'd have no progress, very limited choices, crummy goods and no incentives for innovation or positive changes. There is absolutely nothing Scriptural against fair pricing and reasonable profits. And there is nothing wrong with renting, if that is all one can afford. As usual, JC tries to suggest enacting Scriptural principles through political policies and attacking free-market policies. Yes, if we all lived in a THEOCRACY and all shared the same spiritual beliefs, we could make policies that everyone adhered to and that would be profitable to all. But that is not what 21st century America is. And so the alternative is the state dictates, or some ruler does. Both very bad.

And there is nothing wrong or sinful about having the freedom to make good choices. Compared to his fellow tribesmen, Abraham was very wealthy. God saw fit to prosper him above and beyond others. Was that EVIL? God doesn't give everyone the same economic circumstances, abilities, fully functioning bodies, etc. And He also allows us to make choices that impact - for good or for bad - our circumstances. And if many rent, there is nothing wrong with that. Jesus tells us the poor will always be with us - think that might have more to do with sinful man's choices than specific economic systems? Israel had good kings that brought prosperity, and it had many bad kings that brought it ruin, corruption and dreadful wars. All of which happened under the same type of economic and political system. God does NOT see prosperity as evil - contrary to what JC would have us believe. But He also wants us to love Him FIRST, and to appreciate all blessings that we have and that they all flow from Him, and to be concerned about our fellow man.

JC wrote: "I don't understand why any Christian would spend time defending and applauding the world..eg America..and the systems of the world..eg. capitalism.....

JC, again, capitalism is NOT the problem. It's the people within the system that cause problems and become greedy. And so, in a society with a myriad of different spiritual beliefs, what is the supposed superior system that you would suggest? Capitalism has provided jobs, schools and lifted millions out of the mud. It has helped provide affordable food well beyond our borders. Capitalism does NOT=sin. Every other system restricts individual free choices via the dictates of a small number of people. And if you know anything about Capitalism, it grew out of Christian influences. What other country gives to needy peoples and causes around the world like America? https://www.cafonline.org/pdf/World_Giv ... 191211.pdf

So is our SYSTEM the problem or is it certain people within it? It's one thing to brag about capitalism being superior - that lacks humility. But to attack it as evil is to generalize about the millions of people doing fair and honest business and providing useful products and services at reasonable prices, within it.

JC, you need to begin talking about positive solutions instead of constantly ranting about the same old, same old!

[jcgood]

If usury was capped at 5%...and progressive real estate taxes were in place to curb real estate inflation, and everyone was paid in 1964 wages.....and we had a real economy that actually produced equitable results, we could see a lot more people being able to save up to $60,000+ ....and home prices would be about 40% less...

Yep, and we'd have no progress, crummy goods and no incentives. There is absolutely nothing Scriptural against fair pricing and reasonable profits. And there is nothing wrong with renting, if that is all one can afford. As usual, JC tries to suggest enacting Scriptural principles through political policies and attacking free-market policies. Yes, if we all lived in a THEOCRACY and all shared the same spiritual beliefs, we could make policies that everyone adhered to and that would be profitable to all. But that is not what 21st century America is. And so the alternative is the state dictates, or some ruler does. Both very bad.

And there is nothing wrong or sinful about having the freedom to make good choices. Compared to his fellow tribesmen, Abraham was very wealthy. God saw fit to prosper him above and beyond others. Was that EVIL? God doesn't give everyone the same economic circumstances, abilities, fully functioning bodies, etc. And He also allows us to make choices that impact - for good or for bad - our circumstances. And if many rent, there is nothing wrong with that. Jesus tells us the poor will always be with us - think that might have more to do with sinful man's choices than specific economic systems? Israel had good kings that brought prosperity, and it had many bad kings that brought it ruin, corruption and dreadful wars. All of which happened under the same type of economic and political system. God does NOT see prosperity as evil - contrary to what JC would have us believe. But He also wants us to love Him FIRST, and to appreciate all blessings that we have and that they all flow from Him, and to be concerned about our fellow man.

As usual, JC tries to suggest enacting Scriptural principles through political policies and attacking free-market policies.

Bunk!...and not supported....as usual....Philip makes careless, false assessments.....like he did not even read it or read his own into it.

What I am attacking....is not what Philip falsely stated..... What I AM attacking.....is the Exuberant Exaltation of free-market principles....that WITHOUT GOD AND KNOWING HIM are worth DUNG.....this is what the Apostle Paul states......you can argue with him.....Philip

Every one can read my post and see this to be so.

God does NOT see prosperity as evil - contrary to what JC would have us believe.

Again....Bunk!...and not supported....as usual....Philip makes careless, false assessments.....like he did not even read it or read his own into it.
Philip are you purposely stating false things? Why?

I have made no such statement as Philip falsely claims....He just makes things up and does not support it.....and I cannot understand this.

[jcgood]

JC, again, capitalism is NOT the problem. It's the people within the system that cause problems and become greedy. And so, in a society with a myriad of different spiritual beliefs, what is the supposed superior system that you would suggest? Capitalism has provided jobs, schools and lifted millions out of the mud. It has helped provide affordable food well beyond our borders. Capitalism does NOT=sin. Every other system restricts individual free choices via the dictates of a small number of people. And if you know anything about Capitalism, it grew out of Christian influences. What other country gives to needy peoples and causes around the world like America? https://www.cafonline.org/pdf/World_Giv ... 191211.pdf

So is our SYSTEM the problem or is it certain people within it? It's one thing to brag about capitalism being superior - that lacks humility. But to attack it as evil is to generalize about the millions of people doing fair and honest business and providing useful products and services at reasonable prices, within it.

JC, you need to begin talking about positive solutions instead of constantly ranting about the same old, same old!

Philip......you only read what you want to read. You cannot quote me as writing what you are replying to.

.....take off the glasses that make you see...what I never wrote.....and you will be healed....or at least have the courtesy to cut and past the quote...that's not there..
....you just keep getting deeper into.......trouble

You are ascribing to capitalism virtues that are not founded by history.....and then you deny God's power in being able to use any system....

Why do you believe that capitalism "grew out of Christian influences....?

MYworld view states that GOD CAN USE ANY SYSTEM....ANY COUNTRY....this is what I have consistently said....and anything beyond this is your fabrication...
Please stop fabricating and ascribing to my name..things that I have never said........

What part of ANY SYSTEM...do you not understand?

What other country gives to needy peoples and causes around the world like America?

Why do you feel compelled to ask this question to me........when I can ask....

What other country has more malls than schools?...and more cars than people?.....and more pride that is vain and ungodly?...and more mass murders in a week than most have in a year?...and is the most insecure....(has 5% of the world's population...and accounts for about 40% of its military expenditures)?

Does not your question contradict the Lord....who says ..."It is more blessed to give than to receive".....so why the trumpet blowing?....We have our reward.....

capitalism is NOT the problem. It's the people within the system that cause problems and become greedy

....AHA..that's why the wise people that ruled the U.S. 1930's to 1980....adopted the most progressive taxation in the world...and labor was not under-valued..and the graph of the middle class expansion and home ownership is impressive.

But to attack it as evil is to generalize about the millions of people doing fair and honest business and providing useful products and services at reasonable prices, within it.

Actually you can read many of my posts that clearly state that capitalism works well .....regulated well....U.S. history 1950 - 1980.
since then..it has become increasingly destructive, fake, and unsustainable in its current form.

You just never took the time to actually read what I wrote and replied to statements that I never wrote......but I forgive you....again.

JC, you need to begin talking about positive solutions instead of constantly ranting about the same old, same old!

.....I have been posting my solutions on a blog since 2006.....http://www.worldneedstoknow.blogspot.com/

[JackHectorman]

FL, showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances is NOT the social gospel.

Exactly! Amen to that. If showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances and trying to make those circumstances better is the social gospel, then the Lord Jesus
was the founder of the social gospel. Of course, as you said, showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances is NOT the social gospel.

The social gospel is when merely trying to better people's lives is ALL that a church is concerned with, without connecting good works to the sharing of the Gospel. If we ONLY are concerned with changing a man's earthly circumstances and yet he still dies in his sins, what have we truly accomplished?

Exactly! Another amen to that!

But when we do good by helping people's circumstances it often provides many opportunities to share the Gospel with them. Romans 2 tells us that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance." Psalm 145 tells us that the "Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over ALL that he has made."In Acts 14 Paul tells his unbelieving audience that God "does good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

Magnificent! Very well stated. A pleasure to read. Its uplifting! Its a positive constructive Christian statement. It has somewhere to go and something very important to accomplish. The statement is based on the truths in God's word the Bible and is NOT in the category of defeatism and pessimism. The Prophets Of Doom will not like it.

I greatly appreciate Christian postive constructive can-do attitudes and positive tones. The Christian big picture is all that counts. The Christians that actually build God's Church are those that rise above all the petty insignificant stuff that occupies the minds of all to many Christians who stay bogged down in perpetual defeatism, discontent, gloom, and doom because they focus their minds almost exclusively not only upon the secular Nightly News as true News Junkies addicted to Gloom and Doom like a drug, but also upon the endless petty gripes, whining, moaning, groaning, and discontents of that unhappy segment of the American population who will never be satisfied and contented no matter what.

These perpetually discontented Prophets Of Doom much prefer self-flagalation and constant groans about one thing or the other. They are addicted to it, doom and gloom is addictive, like a drug is addictive. They like it, otherwise they'd get off it.

The majority of the God's people in His Christian Church are people of faith in God, they are up-ward mobile, positive-constructive, can-do, fighting-spirit type people who spend their time accomplishing worthwhile things as people of action. Things like helping build another Christian Church to reach the lost, things like taking an active role in supporting Christian Missions both here in America and in foreign lands.

It is better to light one candle than to constantly curse the darkness.

Clearly, GOD is concerned with the welfare of men. And yet His first concern is with their spiritual condition. It doesn't mean that our kindness, just as God's, can't also be utilized as effective (and needed) tools to lead unbelievers to repentance. In fact, God models this for us. When we bless unbelievers, we glorify God.

Amen to that. And I intend to spend my life doing my part to be obedient to the Lord Christ when He told His Church to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations. He REALLY meant that. He was NOT joking around. The Christian Church is going to be successful in doing what her Lord told her to do. We ARE GOING TO MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL THE NATIONS. And I am going to ALSO do what you said, which was to recognize that God is "concerned with the welfare of men" and I am going to do my part to help them in that area.

And I am going to IGNORE the Prophets Of Doom as if they did not exist. Time is precious and fleeting, and I don't have time to read up on Doom and Gloom .. lol ..

Cheers

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

PS
Such as this is what gets me excited and motivated:
(Its FIRST preaching the gospel, followed by helping
lift people out of their poverty with material blessings.)

Samaritan's Purse Has No Prophets Of Doom

Same link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXXx9yrB ... V5&index=4

This is a powerful video. There is no Gloom & Doom anywhere near this magnificent video.
This video will be a great blessing and encouragement to the vast majority of God's people.

♫

[RickD]

jcgood wrote:
.....I have been posting my solutions on a blog since 2006.....http://www.worldneedstoknow.blogspot.com/

Solutions?

I read your blog. You just post the same stuff that you post here.

[Philip]

Rick wrote: Solutions?

I read your blog. You just post the same stuff that you post here.

Hey, Rick, don't get too picky about the locations of long posts that don't really say anything.

According to JC's blog, anyone with conservative values that votes Republican is part of the "right wing fear machine."

Then, posts on his blog begins with "balanced" jewels like the laughable post below:

JC's Blog: The message of the Democratic platform has been and still is : We would rather have universal Medi-care not-for profit health coverage....but we will compromise ("compromise - hahahahahahaha!) with whatever we can force out of the other party (obviously, the Republican Party, whom he describes as) of the reactionary, liberalphobes...and see what we come up with....which is called Romney-care/Obama-Care. (no bias there, eh, chums?)

JC, you write biased drivel like the above, sprinkle in some cherry picked scriptures to fit your cherry picked political insights, and then you wonder why people here get irked because all you want to do is want to argue politics and assert that conservative political (and otherwise) values don't line up with Scriptural teachings. And when someone challenges the inconsistency and hypocrisy of YOUR political views, you try to shut them down with Scriptural passages that are 1) cherry picked in an attempt to show your self-righteousness and "superior" take on things, and 2) to make sure are calculated to (by FAR) criticize those of conservative views as opposed to the "Holy" party with the logo of a donkey (a perfect logo for them, by the way). You want to blog about the supposedly more moral approach of Democrats to healthcare? Then let's hear some criticism of how the party is solidly behind saving money with their "pre-emptive healthcare plan" (also known as "ABORTION rights" or "Choice" (now, there's a horrific oxymoron!). Why don't you just stick to Scriptural principals and leave the politics at home? You keep saying that politics are not the answer, that God's values and principles are (which is true), but THEN you always go right back to endless political solutions and arguments. And so WHICH is it? You're all over the map with contradictory statements and half-baked assertions that go nowhere fast.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

JackHectorman & Philip
Philip wrote: FL, showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances is NOT the social gospel. Exactly! Amen to that. If showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances and trying to make those circumstances better is the social gospel, then the Lord Jesus was the founder of the social gospel. Of course, as you said, showing concern for the plight of people's circumstances is NOT the social gospel...

What on earth are you two rambling on about?! This was the sentence I objected to,

its the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state.

I said that there is no biblical mandate to improve a nation. Rather, we are to carry the gospel to the world. This can be done in many ways: caring for enemies, feeding the poor, distributing free Bibles, etc. Some of the recipients of the gospel will start on the path to a saving relationship with Christ, some will gladly accept the help and the nice book but most will just reject God...as usual. Those who are saved will thank you and God will reward you in heaven; those who reject Him will have more burning coals heaped upon them.

Listen to what evangelist John Seel has to say about your idea that the Church must make America a better place:

A politicized faith not only blurs our priorities, but weakens our loyalties. Our primary citizenship is not on earth but in heaven...Though few evangelicals would deny this truth in theory, the language of our spiritual citizenship frequently gets wrapped in the red, white & blue. Rather than acting as resident aliens of a heavenly kingdom, too often we sound [and act] like resident apologists for a Christian America...unless we reject the false reliance on the illusion of Christian America, evangelicalism will continue to distort the gospel and thwart a genuine biblical identity.

I greatly appreciate Christian postive constructive can-do attitudes and positive tones. The Christian big picture is all that counts. The Christians that actually build God's Church are those that rise above all the petty insignificant stuff that occupies the minds of all to many Christians who stay bogged down in perpetual defeatism, discontent, gloom, and doom because they focus their minds almost exclusively not only upon the secular Nightly News as true News Junkies addicted to Gloom and Doom like a drug, but also upon the endless petty gripes, whining, moaning, groaning, and discontents of that unhappy segment of the American population who will never be satisfied and contented no matter what.

''The Christians that actually build God's Church''? Who builds God's Church according to the Bible? As for the ''Christians'' who stay ''bogged down'' in ''gloom and doom'', nominal Christians do not count as Christians. I'm sure you don't really believe that everyone who says he's a Christian is a Christian. Do you know that Christians are characterized by joy? Take your concordance and look at all the verses that refer to the joy of the Christian.

One last thing, you guys seem to have moved on to a Save-The-World mandate. It ain't gonna happen. Read Revelation.

FL

[jcgood]

Philip....your false assessments of my writing....are vain and pointless.....what do they accomplish? What is your purpose?

You haven't backed up anything you say.......you continue to cut and paste...a whole post...and then give your false assessments. That I can prove are false.

When I reply to your statements....First....I only give solid examples of why I believe your statements to be untrue....from my Theological understanding.

If you want to criticize me.....be accurate and stop arrogantly thinking that your assessments...are God's truthful assessments.....This is your hypocrisy that you cannot see....and I pity your need to tear down a brother....for your ego?

Because...you haven't made a coherent factual claim...against what I write...that my God and I cannot defend...He has given me the freedom....

I allow you to have all YOUR "biased, laughable, claims"...linking "capitalism with Christian roots".....etc.....but in case you haven't noticed....I don't criticize you personally for that.....cause that's not loving in my worldview.....

Read your own "drivel"....that you have just written to me....and imagine someone writing those same words to YOU.....how would you feel?

What loving your neighbor as yourself is all about.....is putting others first.....because Eternal Life is about knowing God and becoming like Him....and you seem to be impressed with your own false assessments of others.....with such zeal...

This is what everything I write about opposes...division in politics.....especially in the body of Christ...I am not responsible for your false assessments and personal criticisms....you are

Division does not equal disagreement.....but your style of cut and paste harsh, false criticisms and assessments...is what biblical division is.

Christ has given me the freedom to suggest alternative policies to the inane status quo...not because they will actually become popular...but here we can learn how to love and write to someone respectfully....by asking questions....not vainly pointing fingers....
....well how is that going here....?

...even if I was guilty of your false assessments.....why do you read my posts anyway?....There is an ignore button.....what is the point?

If I write one statement that assesses the fact that the Democratic party is at least doing something practical and productive about healthcare reform... which BTW is a compromise..( in fact that's what democracy is..compromise).... does not mean my whole-hearted political endorsement.....which you continually falsely ascribe to my writing...
...just because I assess the current Republican party as liberalphobic....and extreme gridlock-partisan...party of no...this does not cast aspersions on all those who vote Republican...as you falsely claim....

I wish you would explain these odd assessments to us.

When I read the Bible....I do not see democracy and capitalism....and I have given many examples..if you see that....that's ok..but that does not mean I deserve your harsh criticism.....at least give specific counter positions....but...that would be too graceful and loving...

you slam....slammm....and for what...purpose?

I have made it clear that I support....100% government-run not-for-profit health care.....which is my own free, independent assessment...and again...it's whatever I think will work better......so you have failed in your attempt to paint me into your own partisan shackles.

It's not your place to give me directives about what I should or should not do....when you take off your arrogance and put on Love.....you will understand what I just wrote.

You keep saying that politics are not the answer, that God's values and principles are (which is true), but THEN you always go right back to endless political solutions and arguments. And so WHICH is it? You're all over the map with contradictory statements and half-baked assertions that go nowhere fast

Philip....another harsh, critical statement with no correct understanding.....when Philip..we all can see that you really don't care about my answer...just your blither
(..the Emperor has no clothes..)

...what it is Philip...is real life....and I have the freedom to come up with solutions to problems...and write about them.....using the wisdom that God has given me....not based on some rigid ideology...

Am I in power?...do I ever think they will be adopted?....So what is the point of your directives to me?....they are vain..and not from God...and not edifying....any questions?

Saddest of all...most of you have missed my whole point of all my writings.....I am not "arguing politics"...as you falsely claim...Philip....I am arguing AGAINST THEM...
It is YOU..who have cherry picked...a paragraph from my blog..OUT OF CONTEXT...and missed the whole point...

http://worldneedstoknow.blogspot.com/20 ... wenty.html

If you were not so steeped in your own partisan, political shackles....you would see that I am free from mine in Christ...

Philip....come out of yourself....for His sake..and for ours.

PS....if you don't think this post is loving towards you...well... that's another "Christian Discussion" thread. Peace

[Philip]

FL: What on earth are you two rambling on about?! This was the sentence I objected to,

JackHectorman wrote: its the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state.

FL, if I misunderstood where you were coming from I sincerely apologize. Guess I was loaded for bear and thought I saw one.

[Philip]

Sorry, FL, I accidentally hit the "edit" button on my response to you, and then deleted it in trying to fix it .

FL wrote: I forgive you. My wife says you're handsome but I haven't told her that the pic isn't of you. If you stay nice, I'll let her remain in ignorance.

Thanks, FL!

Well, MY wife thinks I'm handsome, too, and she sees the REAL deal. Or maybe she's just been lying to me for 25 years ? Actually, Mr. McLeod doesn't quite look like that anymore, either. Anyway, he was never the same after he cut his long hair (and Samson says, "TELL me about it!") - plus they cancelled his show and took away his sword.

[1over137]

Sorry, FL, I accidentally hit the "edit" button on my response to you, and then deleted it in trying to fix it

[Philip]

Sorry, FL, I accidentally hit the "edit" button on my response to you, and then deleted it in trying to fix it

Yeah, no coffee this morning.

[JackHectorman]

`
"This ↓ was the sentence I objected to:"__Furstentum Liechtenstein

Jack Hectorman wrote: "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and
incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make
America a better nation state."

And what I wrote is precisely correct because the Lord Christ commanded His Christian Church to "make disciples of all nations." Doing that would most certainly make them better. The Lord Christ was not joking when He said "go and make disciples of all nations". It was a serious command. And His Christian Church is going to obey His command. We are going to carry out what He commanded us to do.

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”Matthew 28:18-20

In connection with His Christian Church carrying out His command to "make disciples of all the nations" notice that the Lord Christ said that, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

(1) He has ALL of His authority ["All authority" v.18]

(2) He has ALL of his authority NOW [note the past tense phrase "has been given to me" v.18]

(3) He has ALL power IN HEAVEN [v.18]

(4) He has ALL power ON EARTH [v.18] ... (see 1 Cor. 15: 24-28 below)

(5) Note the Lord's use of the word "Therefore" in verse 19. The word "therefore" refers back to His previous statement which was that He has ALL power in both HEAVEN and on EARTH and He has it all NOW ["has been given" to me.]


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Re my statement: "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state."__Jack H.

The statement is true and not only for America, but for the entire world as well ["all nations v.19] because as the Christian Church carries out the command of her Lord to "make disciples of all nations", men will (1)obey the Lord's command in John 3:3 that you must be born again and that will be followed by their (2) believing on the Lord Jesus as their Savior as taught in John 3:16 and then they will begin the long process of being (3) taught by the Holy Spirit how to become wise and mature Christians as explained in Gal. 5:22-23. The fruits produced by the Holy Spirit are such as love, faith, patience, hope, kindness, compassion, etc.

These 3 together [ John 3:3 .. John 3:16 .. Gal. 5:22-23 ] will make America and "all nations" into better nations.

The Lord Jesus is the victor. His Great Commission will be carried out by His Christian Church. This passage from 1 Cor. 15: 24-28 makes that crystal clear:

24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

Note the phrase "Then the end will come"

Note that the end of time does not occur until "AFTER" the Lord Christ has "destroyed all dominion, authority and power".

Note that He "must reign until he has put ALL His enemies under his feet"

Now compare this 1 Cor. 15: 24-28 passage with the Great Commission passage to see how both passages harmonize together.

The Lord Christ's Great Commission To His Christian Church:
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”Matthew 28:18-20

Both passages are talking about the success of the gospel and the success of the Lord Christ's Great Commission where He commanded His Christian Church to "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" and there is not a shadow of a doubt that this will make all nations into better nations. My statement is true. "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state."__Jack H.

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PS
As the centuries and millenniums roll along the nations that will then exist in North America might not be named "America" or "Canada" [who knows what they will call them millenniums hence?], but names of nations is not vital and important. What is vital and important is the Lord Christ's Great Commission to me [and to all we Christians] to "Therefore [ie because "all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me"] go and make disciples of all nations."



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