The Eternal Sonship of Christ

[oldman]

oldman wrote:
I have no problem believing the Son would have been eternally in, and proceeding from, the Father before creation began, but I also believe that in eternity before creation began, the Son must have come into existence as another free thinking mind otherwise the meaning of “Father” and “Son” would need to be altered.

Oldman,

Whether you notice or not, with your own words, you have just denied that Christ is God. As Byblos pointed out, someone who came into existence, cannot be God.

Rick,
If the Son first existed as a 'spiritual embryo' in His Father's eternal thoughts, then He would have existed for as long as His Father has existed. When He became like His Father, the Father and His Son then started to create everything. The Son (the 2nd person of the Trinity) is the Son of God the Father.(the 1st person of the Trinity)

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only as a spiritual embryo in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father was a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.


To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the true meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

You may want to do that but I cannot.

So,
You are preaching a different christ.

To you apparently, yes.

And while we haven't gotten into your beliefs about the Holy Spirit, why shouldn't anyone believe you're talking about a false Holy Spirit as well?

If any person has not been baptised with the Holy Spirit, (who would have been equally embryonic with the Son) how will they begin to know the meaning of the Spirit of truth?

[oldman]

Hold on a minute Byblos, If the Son first existed as a 'spiritual embryo' in His Father's eternal thoughts, would not the Son have existed for as long as His Father?

If the answer is yes, there is no contradiction, is there?

What does it even mean that the Son was a spiritual embryo in the Father's eternal thoughts?

What it says, The Son existed as a spiritual embryo in the Father's eternal thoughts.

"The Son existed as a part of the Father,” (throughout eternity before creation began) “either as a piece or of the same substance, until He became a separate being." (then creation began)

At a minimum, it implies that God can grow in his own knowledge.

Yes, when Satan rebelled and became the god of the infectious evil that threatened to destroy creation, did not God grow in the knowledge of evil and how to best counter evil?

Besides, the OT flatly contradicts you because God's Word was extremely active during that period,

Sorry but what period exactly are you talking about?

not just a mere embryonic thought.

Did I say that the only thoughts of the infinite mind of the Father, throughout eternity before creation began, was of His embryonic Son? No. Although I would have thought with nothing else but Himself and His embryonic Son along with the Holy Spirit, (who would have been equally embryonic with the Son), His Son would have been constantly uppermost in His thoughts.

Besides still, I hold to divine simplicity

Jesus is God and the Son of the God who is His Father. Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” united as one God through the only proven Spirit of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.

Simple enough to me.

Besides still, I hold to my God of reason...

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only as a spiritual embryo in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father was a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

which means God is indivisible in any way, has no parts, thoughts or otherwise.

It is your free choice to believe in your 'divine simplicity' if you want to. May I remind you though that we do have thoughts because we were made to freely think and reason in God's image and likeness.

But even if I were to grant you that idea (and I don't), there most certainly remains a contradiction because you are simply paying lip service to the Word's eternality by repeatedly stating that it came into being (see highlights in my previous post).

To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

We do not deny the Son proceeds from the Father so your statement sets up a straw man. What we deny is that the Son came into existence spiritually, and a second time physically. Your position is nothing but self-contradictions oldman, I'd reconsider it if I were you.

What you are denying is this...


"The Son existed as a part of the Father,” (first as a spiritual embryo in the Father's eternal thoughts before creation began) “either as a piece or of the same substance, until He became a separate being." (before creation began)

And to deny the Son came from the Father before creation began must also involve denying the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

[PaulSacramento]

The issue is that there was no "before" creation.
Time concept did NOT exist until time was "created" with creation.
There was no point in "time" when the Father existed without the Son.

[B. W.]

Thank you oldman for finally answering questions, even though you will not answer mine, you did so by answering others here.

Are you aware that you appear to be following and mirroring Branhamite Teachings regarding Jesus as from - the Father's thoughts. Are you aware that what you state about Jesus can be found on modern Branhamites websites and in some cases, almost word for word?

I would suggest folks research William Branham and the variety Branhamite beliefs in order to grasp what oldman is conveying here as they clarify the language oldman uses regarding Jesus being a son who existed in the embryo of the Father's thought.

Branhamism is still out there in the world today and has gone through various evolutions, some have infected oneness Pentecostal circles and others morphed into Prophetic Word Movement manifestations and on and on.

Again, thank you oldman for finally clarifying yourself.
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[Byblos]

Again, thank you oldman for finally clarifying yourself.

Agreed. I have nothing else to say on the subject. His last response to me speaks for itself.

[oldman]

Oldman, let me try to describe what I *THINK* your beliefs are. Where I'm wrong, please correct me:

"The Son existed as a part of the Father, either as a piece or of the same substance, until He became a separate being."

Is this even close to accurate?

Yes, I think it is a reasonable assessment and I found it helpful in explaining myself more clearly earlier on.

Thank you SS

[oldman]

The issue is that there was no "before" creation.
Time concept did NOT exist until time was "created" with creation.
There was no point in "time" when the Father existed without the Son.

Where exactly does the Bible tell us there is no such thing as time in eternity Paul? I know that in Revelation 10:6 we are told in some translations such as the Aramaic Bible in Plain English and The King James Bible, that “Time shall be no more”, or “that there should be time no longer”, but I have always understood that as meaning our time, the time that we perceive in our created universe now, at this moment.

I believe we are being told in Revelation that our present concept of time will be “no more”. But that doesn't mean to say that another concept of time without beginning and without end does not exist in eternity. I say this because if we have any movement in matter (matter being something as opposed to nothing) in eternity, or outside of what we see of our universe, then in order to perceive that movement there must be a dimension of time. Time is needed for any movement to exist. Without time we would never experience or be able to measure any movement of anything.

Or are you saying there will be no such thing as any movement of anything in eternity?

[oldman]

Thank you oldman for finally answering questions, even though you will not answer mine, you did so by answering others here.

Are you aware that you appear to be following and mirroring Branhamite Teachings regarding Jesus as from - the Father's thoughts. Are you aware that what you state about Jesus can be found on modern Branhamites websites and in some cases, almost word for word?

I would suggest folks research William Branham and the variety Branhamite beliefs in order to grasp what oldman is conveying here as they clarify the language oldman uses regarding Jesus being a son who existed in the embryo of the Father's thought.

Branhamism is still out there in the world today and has gone through various evolutions, some have infected oneness Pentecostal circles and others morphed into Prophetic Word Movement manifestations and on and on.

Until now I had never heard of the man, and after looking at this B.W.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branhamites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M. ... m#Doctrine ...I can see that your ability to comprehend what I have been saying still cannot be trusted.

Again, thank you oldman for finally clarifying yourself.

No problem

[B. W.]

Thank you oldman for finally answering questions, even though you will not answer mine, you did so by answering others here.

Are you aware that you appear to be following and mirroring Branhamite Teachings regarding Jesus as from - the Father's thoughts. Are you aware that what you state about Jesus can be found on modern Branhamites websites and in some cases, almost word for word?

I would suggest folks research William Branham and the variety Branhamite beliefs in order to grasp what oldman is conveying here as they clarify the language oldman uses regarding Jesus being a son who existed in the embryo of the Father's thought.

Branhamism is still out there in the world today and has gone through various evolutions, some have infected oneness Pentecostal circles and others morphed into Prophetic Word Movement manifestations and on and on.

Until now I had never heard of the man, and after looking at this B.W.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branhamites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M. ... m#Doctrine ...I can see that your ability to comprehend what I have been saying still cannot be trusted.

Again, thank you oldman for finally clarifying yourself.

No problem

Notice Oldman, that I stated that it appears and were you aware which does not impugn that you knew or are one of his followers.

However, the language used within these groups does reflect your language and explanations to the the tee...

Therefore if this group's doctrines have been proved error, then what does that suggest of yours?

Take a look at the language used on one of their websites:

PERSON AND PERSONALITY

... He (Jesus) was that Hidden Mystery of God Which came forth from the Mind of God, before anything else was ever created, to EXPRESS the VERY PERSONALITY of God. Hence, Jesus was the LOGOS (WORD) of God made manifest in the flesh: "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God" (Rev.19:13 cf. Col.1:19; 2:9). It was the WORD which pre-existed. It came forth out of the Almighty Spirit in the beginning as the "beginning of the creation of God" and as "the firstborn over all creations".

http://www.propheticrevelation.net/logos3.htm

Next, Oldman, this is a Christian Apologetic website. It is one of the roles of moderators on the website to research the claims of posters regarding matters of bad doctrine. If we did not, then we would not be doing our job. I think you are intelligent enough to understand that. Other posters have pointed out that the doctrine you hold is in error.Can you see that?

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[B. W.]

Hi Oldman, let me add to the words I already mentioned above.

It is a forum’s moderators duty here to research doctrines and claims made by folks. In other words, to have that Berean mindset mentioned in Acts 17:10-11 checking what folks claim with the Bible. Next we are to exercise what Col 2:4 states to make sure no one deceives the brethren, and lastly apply the principle mentioned in 1 Th 5:21 - test all things.

You came on this forum and posted a lot of stuff that simply confused people as well as threaten anyone who does not agree with your position in your round about manner concealed tone. Now that you finally answered some questions, people here can see a pattern emerge concerning what you write.

You may just think that all your ideas and concepts are original and yours alone or maybe you are a secret shopper of some peculiar sect. There is no way for us to really know because, so far as I read your post, I do not see any mention what group you hang your hat with. So I’ll take it that you are under the opinion that all you wrote is from yourself.

With that, you don’t seem to be aware of this: that at least four aberrant heretical sects write and phrase things as you do regarding Jesus being in the mind of the Father, etc and spirit of love – truth, etc and etc. This means you have at least four differing heretical teachings that testify that your position is also heretical. The Four groups that teach and you mirror on the subjects which you discussed so far in order are:

1-Christian Science

2-Christadelphian

3-Branhamites

4-Rastferian

All these sects share a common core with Gnosticism concerning who Jesus is as the son with Christian Science being the closet aligned to the phraseology you use. For examples see below:

Christian Science

Belief in Deity
God is incorporeal Spirit--creative Principle, supreme, omnipotent Father-Mother, omnipresent, omniscient--the only intelligence and all that actually exists. God is Mind, Spirit, Soul, Principle, Life, Truth, and Love. "God is All-in-all."

•Incarnations
We are all sons/daughters of God, though not at the level of understanding of Christ Jesus. Jesus was a divine Exemplar, and Christ is the divine idea of "sonship"--the Master. Jesus showed the way (the “wayshower”) for all to realize Truth, which is God.

Christian Science derives a definition of God as:

"The great I AM; the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-acting, all-wise, all-loving, and eternal; Principle; Mind; Soul; Spirit; Life; Truth; Love; all substance; intelligence" (Science and Health, p.587).

Quoted from Belief Net Link

"Life, Truth, and Love constitutes the triune Person called God ... Christ the spiritual idea of sonship; divine Science or the Holy Comforter" (Science and Health, p. 331-332).

"Christ as the true spiritual ideal, is the ideal of God now and forever ..." (Science and Health, p. 361).

This Comforter(Holy Spirit) I understand to be Divine Science" (Science and Health, p. 55). It (Holy Spirit) is the unfolding of the thoughts and infinite mind of God (pp. 502-503). [cf. Jn. 16:13-14]

These are just a few quotes from those that would agree with your phraseology. Add to this the Christadelphian and Rastferian concepts of Christ’s sonship to the Father as being – in the mind of the Father, or God - to have always existed in the mind of God and still be the created and yet uncreated. Next the Branhamite sects would agree with your phraseology as well as I have already shown. These groups present forms of Gnostic dualistic thought through and through and you have demonstrate this same propensity.

This should cause you great concern – to be aligned with sects proven heretical especially since these seem to be your own ideas. That is why, in the beginning that I mentioned that you just maybe under some sort of religious seducing spirit. The evidence, points to this because your phraseology is aligned, almost word for word. With proven heretical sets. Add to this, there are also hints of New Thought Metaphysics in the phrases you have used as well too, which makes it very difficult for the reader to grasp. As for the Branhamite sects, you position your doctrines as unquestionable in the uncanny manner they do with concealed threats of d-mnation.

So, oldman, what you have written reflects what these four cults spout concerning Jesus being in - 'spiritual embryo' in His Father's eternal thoughts - mind... This is great error just as Byblos, Jac, and others have pointed out.

Please listen and realize that what you are hearing is not from the Lord at all. If you are not aligned with any of these sects, then the concern grows deeper that you have run afoul of a seducing spirit of the kind the bible mentions and is leading you astray and seeking others to lead astray.

We again here on the website have granted you great grace to explain your position and that you cannot deny. Likewise, with the love of the real Jesus Christ we implore you to speak to us regarding what we think about Jesus and his saving grace shown upon the cross and what it really means. Are you that willing to hear us out on these matters – Yes or No…
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[oldman]

Are you aware that you appear to be following and mirroring Branhamite Teachings regarding Jesus as from - the Father's thoughts. Are you aware that what you state about Jesus can be found on modern Branhamites websites and in some cases, almost word for word?

you don’t seem to be aware of this: that at least four aberrant heretical sects write and phrase things as you do regarding Jesus being in the mind of the Father, etc and spirit of love – truth, etc and etc. This means you have at least four differing heretical teachings that testify that your position is also heretical. The Four groups that teach and you mirror on the subjects which you discussed so far in order are:

1-Christian Science 

2-Christadelphian

3-Branhamites

4-Rastferian

Let us finish dealing with Branhamites first.

here are some snippets from wikipedia, regarding William Branham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branhamites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M. ... m#Doctrine ...


One of the most distinctive features of The Message's teaching is the rejection of both the Trinitarian view of the Godhead and also a rejection of the "Oneness" views held by those of the Oneness Pentecostals. The Message followers believe that there is One God who is the Father, and that God Himself is a Spirit. They believe that the Holy Spirit and God the Father are the same being but in different manifestations.

Their doctrine also states that Jesus is the Son of God just as Adam was a Son of God (a perfect human being), and also he was God (a perfect God) so that He could suffer and die as a mortal. It was because God the Father was in Christ that He could speak as though He was God, because God was literally dwelling within Him and using Him to speak.

Branham rejected the traditional understanding of the Trinity as three distinct, co-eternal Persons [80] and taught what he called “the Supreme Deity of Jesus Christ”.[83] At times he referred to the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity [84][85] while explaining that God revealed Himself in three “offices or manifestations”.[86] He used the example of an actor who plays several roles by changing his mask,[87] and that of a father, husband and grandfather being the same person.[88] There is only one God with three titles: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.[89] Therefore water baptism, which he said should be by immersion,[90]was performed in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not using the Trinitarian formula of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[91]

Referring to the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, William Branham wrote:
“Ever since then people have failed to realize that there is just one God with three offices or manifestations. They know there is one God according to Scripture, but they try to make it the fantastic theory that God is like a bunch of grapes; three persons with the same Divinity shared equally by all. But it plainly says here in Revelation that Jesus is "That Which Is", "That Which Was", and "That Which Is to Come". He is the "Alpha and Omega", which means that He is the "A to Z" or THE ALL OF IT. He is everything—the Almighty. He is the Rose of Sharon, the Lily of the Valley, the Bright and Morning Star, the Righteous Branch, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. He is God, Almighty God. ONE GOD.”[94]



...Now B.W., if you seriously believe that Branham's understanding of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is like my understanding then you once again serve to prove that your ability to comprehend what I have been saying still cannot be trusted.

I will explain again then what I see for the sake of those who you may influence, and that they might see how wrong you are...


The Son existed as a part of the Father, in eternity before creation began, either as a piece of or of the same substance, and not until He became a separate being like His Father, did creation begin.

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only as a spiritual embryo in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father was a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

Jesus is God and the Son of the God who is His Father. Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” united as one God through the only proven Spirit of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.


And just to remind you again: To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the true meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

[B. W.]

oldman, I was stating that how you write and what you said so far on this forum lines up with the language used by these groups and that you appear to think you have come to conclusion that what you write is your own revelation. I was demonstrating that your revelation is shared in part by non-christian groups by the shared ideas and phraseology these groups use. There is a big difference in that than what you imply about me.

Again, its called connecting the dots and testing what a poster is saying against what the bible says. This often includes digging into what other groups phrases and typologies. From this, a person can begin to discern when someone is off base in their privet revelations because it matches what known cultic use to hook people into cults or false revelations.

Part of the job here as moderator is to investigate and and expose error. The one being exposed may not like it but it needs to be done for all the Readers sake to keep them away from posters errors and perhaps hearken such (you) to repent from error. Actual real love will warn a person when the bridge is out up ahead, not coddle them, and tell them all is well - keep going. And the love you write about is a coddling type of love that tells people to keep going despite what the danger signs say.

That is all...

Have a nice day!
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[oldman]

Part of the job here as moderator is to investigate and and expose error. The one being exposed may not like it but it needs to be done for all the Readers sake to keep them away from posters errors and perhaps hearken such (you) to repent from error.

This is what you also freely choose to condemn...

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

Actual real love will warn a person when the bridge is out up ahead, not coddle them, and tell them all is well - keep going. And the love you write about is a coddling type of love that tells people to keep going despite what the danger signs say.

The alternative to faith in my God of reason is sure and certain everlasting destruction.

Have a nice day!  

See you soon.

[B. W.]

Part of the job here as moderator is to investigate and and expose error. The one being exposed may not like it but it needs to be done for all the Readers sake to keep them away from posters errors and perhaps hearken such (you) to repent from error.

This is what you also freely choose to condemn...

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

Actual real love will warn a person when the bridge is out up ahead, not coddle them, and tell them all is well - keep going. And the love you write about is a coddling type of love that tells people to keep going despite what the danger signs say.

The alternative to faith in my God of reason is sure and certain everlasting destruction.

Have a nice day!  

See you soon.

Just like what the Branhamites do - use veiled threats against those that disagree - well not very aligned to what you so stated about love ... is it?

Rest my case...
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[RickD]

oldman wrote:
The Son existed as a part of the Father, in eternity before creation began, either as a piece of or of the same substance, and not until He became a separate being like His Father, did creation begin.

This is not the Trinity, oldman. The Trinity is three persons in one being. You are saying The Son became a separate being.