The Eternal Sonship of Christ

[Byblos]

The alternative to faith in my God of reason is sure and certain everlasting destruction.

You only pay lip service to the God of reason but refuse to see the god you believe in is the god of self-contradiction. An eternal God cannot 'learn' new knowledge for it would deny his omniscience. An eternal being cannot 'grow' from an embryonic thought into a separate being for it would deny his omnipotence. An eternal God cannot spawn a new eternal god for it would deny the law of non-contradiction (an eternal being growing into a different being).

And before you endlessly repeat your refrain of 'otherwise we must deny "father" and "son", you couldn't be more wrong for the Trinity specifically exemplifies that heavenly relationship, and yes, before creation began.

No oldman, your god is most certainly not the God of reason nor the God of the bible as revealed in His Trinitarian glory. Repent.

[oldman]

The alternative to faith in my God of reason is sure and certain everlasting destruction.

You only pay lip service to the God of reason but refuse to see the god you believe in is the god of self-contradiction. An eternal God cannot 'learn' new knowledge for it would deny his omniscience.

Before evil became as much apart of freewill as good, there was no evil. It was a perfect member of creation who we now call Satan, who through freewill and a natural desire to experience the unknown, and through pride and rebellion did Satan first experience the extreme pleasures of extreme rebellion.
He alone is the god of evil because he alone spawned the infectious evil that corrupted so many and threatened to destroy creation, but through the infinite wisdom and work of God, the power of evil was destroyed, is being destroyed, and will be destroyed forever.

An eternal being cannot 'grow' from an embryonic thought into a separate being for it would deny his omnipotence.

The Son of God grew from an eternal embryonic thought before creation began and He is omnipotent because He is a part of and is completely united to the infinite omnipotent mind and memory of His Father.

An eternal God cannot spawn a new eternal god for it would deny the law of non-contradiction (an eternal being growing into a different being).

An eternal embryo in God the Father can and did grow into the Father's eternal Son before creation began because that is the only reasonable way there could be a “Father” and a “Son” in the Godhead before creation began.

And before you endlessly repeat your refrain of 'otherwise we must deny "father" and "son", you couldn't be more wrong for the Trinity specifically exemplifies that heavenly relationship, and yes, before creation began.

What heavenly relationship do you mean Byblos?

This one...



Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.



Are you now saying that you agree with this?...



The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.




Admit it Byblos, you can't agree with what I have written here and you can't begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. You cannot acknowledge the truth or the meaning of the Spirit of truth any more than Satan himself can, can you?

No oldman, your god is most certainly not the God of reason nor the God of the bible as revealed in His Trinitarian glory.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”(Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

Repent.

Freedom is the freedom to choose your reasoning or mine.

[B. W.]

Let's see, you state that Jesus

... Son of God grew from an eternal embryonic thought before creation began and He is omnipotent because He is a part of and is completely united to the infinite omnipotent mind and memory of His Father.

Please compare this with the following quote:

X. Jesus demonstrated Christ; he proved that Christ is the divine idea of God — the Holy Ghost, or Comforter, revealing the divine Principle, Love, and leading into all truth.
Science and Health sections 332-334

Here it states that the word Christ is simply the the divine idea of God. Early in this work, the divine principle, love, leads to all truth. God the father is viewed as the divine mind expressing this principle (love,truth, etc) and 'Christ' is the expressing of that Idea - hence - according to this view Jesus grew from an eternal embryonic thought (Christ -divine idea of God) before creation began and He is omnipotent because He is a part of and is completely united to the infinite omnipotent mind and memory of His Father...

Is that correct?

Now lets' proceed...

Messiah or Christ

XII. The word Christ is not properly a synonym for Jesus, though it is commonly so used. Jesus was a human name, which belonged to him in common with other Hebrew boys and men, for it is identical with the name Joshua, the renowned Hebrew leader. On the other hand, Christ is not a name so much as the divine title of Jesus. Christ expresses God’s spiritual, eternal nature. The name is synonymous with Messiah, and alludes to the spirituality which is taught, illustrated, and demonstrated in the life of which Christ Jesus was the embodiment. The proper name of our Master in the Greek was Jesus the Christ; but Christ Jesus better signifies the Godlike.

Science and Health sections 332-334

Christ expresses God’s spiritual, eternal nature and therefore comes from the divine mind - thought of the Father and inhabited Jesus to express love, truth, healing, etc...

Is that correct and why you refer to Jesus existing in the thought of the Father to be eternal and yet still created to be son to express the divine idea of God?

Next, notice that this very idea is found in the next quote in full context of how it was written...

The divine Principle and idea

XIII. The advent of Jesus of Nazareth marked the first century of the Christian era, but the Christ is without beginning of years or end of days. Throughout all generations both before and after the Christian era, the Christ, as the spiritual idea, — the reflection of God, — has come with some measure of power and grace to all prepared to receive Christ, Truth. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets caught glorious glimpses of the Messiah, or Christ, which baptized these seers in the divine nature, the essence of Love. The divine image, idea, or Christ was, is, and ever will be inseparable from the divine Principle, God. Jesus referred to this unity of his spiritual identity thus: “Before Abraham was, I am;” “I and my Father are one;” “My Father is greater than I.” The one Spirit includes all identities.

Science and Health sections 332-334

This is saying that the divine idea - Christ is without beginning of years or end of days and before that it states that "The word Christ is not properly a synonym for Jesus, though it is commonly so used. Jesus was a human name..." and that the Christ is merely a spiritual idea, the reflection of God, the divine image, of the divine mind to express the essence of pure love...

This is saying that only the Christ - the spiritual idea, the reflection of God, the divine image - and that (Divine Mind - Father) placed on Jesus, a man, (Son of God) the Christ and therefore Jesus the Christ was from an eternal embryonic thought (Christ - divine idea from divine mind -father)) before creation began and He is omnipotent because He is a part of and is completely united to the infinite omnipotent mind and memory of His Father. In other other words only Christ was in the mind of the Father and he planned to have a son - Jesus - to anoint with Christ. Thus Jesus the man was merely a thought from from an eternal embryonic thought to express eternal Christ (divine idea from divine mind) before creation began...

Is that what you are trying to say?

Let's continue to look further into the evidence...

Spiritual oneness

XIV. By these sayings Jesus meant, not that the human Jesus was or is eternal, but that the divine idea or Christ was and is so and therefore antedated Abraham; not that the corporeal Jesus was one with the Father, but that the spiritual idea, Christ, dwells forever in the bosom of the Father, God, from which it illumines heaven and earth; not that the Father is greater than Spirit, which is God, but greater, infinitely greater, than the fleshly Jesus, whose earthly career was brief.334

Science and Health sections 332-334

Does not this quote express what you are trying to convey oldman?

You see oldman, none of what you say is original with you as Ms Eddy shares your views. All she wrote is pure hogwash and absolutely scripturally unbiblical. In fact, the mannerism of her writings sound very eerily similar to your writing style and verbiage recorded here. Do they not?

You continually write and use the word love and truth very loosely and express the idea of God's nature in very similar terms as quoted below:

The universal cause

VI. God is individual, incorporeal. He is divine Principle, Love, the universal cause, the only creator, and there is no other self-existence. He is all-inclusive, and is reflected by all that is real and eternal and by nothing else. He fills all space, and it is impossible to conceive of such omnipresence and individuality except as infinite Spirit or Mind. Hence all is Spirit and spiritual.

Divine trinity

VII. Life, Truth, and Love constitute the triune Person called God, — that is, the triply divine Principle, Love. They represent a trinity in unity, three in one, — the same in essence, though multiform in office: God the Father-Mother; Christ the spiritual idea of sonship; divine Science or the Holy Comforter. These three express in divine Science the threefold, essen tial nature of the infinite. They also indicate the divine Principle of scientific being, the intelligent relation of God to man and the universe.

VIII. Father-Mother is the name for Deity, which indicates His tender relationship to His spiritual creation. As the apostle expressed it in words which he quoted with approbation from a classic poet: “For we are also His offspring.”

Science and Health 331-332

The style of your writing and limited ability to express oneself suggest very strongly that you are under sway of the same sort of familiar spirit as Eddy had...

And that you really do not know who the real Jesus Christ is. He came to set you free from claptrap of dangerous blasphemous sin - that is the real Jesus the one who came to set people free.

Would you like to meet him?
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[Byblos]

The alternative to faith in my God of reason is sure and certain everlasting destruction.

You only pay lip service to the God of reason but refuse to see the god you believe in is the god of self-contradiction. An eternal God cannot 'learn' new knowledge for it would deny his omniscience.

Before evil became as much apart of freewill as good, there was no evil. It was a perfect member of creation who we now call Satan, who through freewill and a natural desire to experience the unknown, and through pride and rebellion did Satan first experience the extreme pleasures of extreme rebellion.
He alone is the god of evil because he alone spawned the infectious evil that corrupted so many and threatened to destroy creation, but through the infinite wisdom and work of God, the power of evil was destroyed, is being destroyed, and will be destroyed forever.

Are you smoking funny ciggies again? How is that a response to the denial of God's omniscience?

An eternal being cannot 'grow' from an embryonic thought into a separate being for it would deny his omnipotence.

The Son of God grew from an eternal embryonic thought before creation began and He is omnipotent because He is a part of and is completely united to the infinite omnipotent mind and memory of His Father.

And how is that a response to the denial of God's omnipotence?

An eternal God cannot spawn a new eternal god for it would deny the law of non-contradiction (an eternal being growing into a different being).

An eternal embryo in God the Father can and did grow into the Father's eternal Son before creation began because that is the only reasonable way there could be a “Father” and a “Son” in the Godhead before creation began.

Really? According to what laws of (il)logic? Oldman, you really need to stop and think a little. If an eternal being starts out as an embryo and grows into full fledged eternal being, then what happens when this eternal being grows old and dies?

Seriously, there is no yardstick by which one can measure the level of contradictions such a position necessarily entails. And yet you think yours is the god of reason. Simply incredulous.

And before you endlessly repeat your refrain of 'otherwise we must deny "father" and "son", you couldn't be more wrong for the Trinity specifically exemplifies that heavenly relationship, and yes, before creation began.

What heavenly relationship do you mean Byblos?

This one...



Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.



Are you now saying that you agree with this?...

Of course I agree with it (a little too poetic for my taste but I don't see anything objectionable about it). But that paragraph says absolutely nothing on the rest of your position that makes a mockery of it by portraying an oxymoronic god. That's why I keep saying you only pay lip service to the God of reason; the sad part is that you evidently are incapable of comprehending this obvious fact.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

Admit it Byblos, you can't agree with what I have written here and you can't begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. You cannot acknowledge the truth or the meaning of the Spirit of truth any more than Satan himself can, can you?

Seriously, once again I will ask, what are you smoking? Poetic as it is, when did I ever disagree with that? Wake up and pay attention oldman, just about the only thing I disagreed with you vis-a-vis your position is your contradictory description of the Word as an embryonic entity that grew into a separate eternal being. Oldman, listen very carefully, these words are utter nonsense, they are meaningless because they are full of contradictions. It makes no sense to speak of more than one eternal entity.

No oldman, your god is most certainly not the God of reason nor the God of the bible as revealed in His Trinitarian glory.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”(Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

Repent.

Freedom is the freedom to choose your reasoning or mine.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. What you're not entitled to is to call it reason, 'cause it ain't.

[oldman]

I think we can safely say that we are not likely to agree entirely on how the Father's Son existed in eternity before creation began Byblos, not this side of Judgement Day anyway. But never mind, I think our views on this issue are of little importance for as long as we can agree on the meaning of the Spirit of truth and the only way of salvation.


Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply becauseNO ONEcan even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

We wouldn't want to lose track of the original meaning of our discussion would we? You know, “Reason to believe”. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 19&t=38838

[B. W.]

Oldman,

...your most recent quote again expresses Gnostic thought of the same which the Aposptle Paul warned Christians to avoid in Colossians. You may think your ideas are originally derived from your own intelligence; however, other proven erring cultic groups share the same ideas, themes, and linguistic style as you. For example, your linguistic expressions can be found in Christian Science, Christadelphian, Rastafarian, and Branhamism. Yet, there is one more that sounds eerily similar to the way oldman writes and that is the writings of Charles Fillmore, founder of the Unity Church movement. These five groups all share Gnostic thought with Fillmore’s and Eddy’s linguistic style matching Oldman’s more than the others groups mentioned.

I demonstrated excerpts from Eddy’s Science and Health (Christian Science) that shows how similar the writing style echoes Oldman’s. Now let any readers look over the writings of Gnostic Charles Fillmore’s, Dynamics for Living, and see how oldman eerily mirrors both Fillmore and Eddy:

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Fillmore writes this about Jesus and like Eddy turns the title - Christ into another entire meaning - Christ is the perfect idea of God - notice how oldman expresses that Jesus Christ existed in the mind, or ideas of God - being embryo, etc... This is an example of a form of Gnostic dualism which says the Jesus was created, came into being, but 'Christ' is however an eternal perfect idea that was always in the mind of God. Therefore, God-Mind just thought to put 'Christ' into a man named 'Jesus' in the very same manner that Eddy uses the term Christ. Now Look at how Fillmore says it:

Chapter 22
JESUS CHRIST
Charles Fillmore
Dynamics For Living

Jesus Christ

Christ is the perfect idea of God for man. Jesus is the perfect expression of the divine idea Man. Jesus Christ is a union of the two, the idea and the expression, or in other words, He is the perfect man demonstrated.

Next, from the same chapter, Jesus Christ, Fillmore writes this:

Jesus Knew

Jesus was keenly conscious of the character of God and His own relationship to Him. He knew God as unlimited love and as ever-present, abundant life. He knew God as wisdom and supply. He knew Him as Father, ever ready and willing to supply every need of the human heart.

Jesus knew that as Son of God He had access to every blessing, to all the wisdom, love, and help of the Father-Mind. He did not simply believe that the words He spoke were true, He knew that they were true. His words were pregnant with meaning. They were vital, living words, which carried conviction and which produced immediate results.

Jesus is the Way-Shower. He came that we might have life more abundantly. He came to awaken man to the possibilities of his own nature. He came to bear witness to Truth. He used the one true way to the realization of eternal life and the universal consciousness, therefore His influence on the race cannot be measured. It is infinite and eternal.

Compare this with what old man wrote:

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Now read Fillmore regarding man:

Chapter 4
MAN
Charles Fillmore
Dynamics For Living

MAN IS an idea in Divine Mind. He is the epitome of Being. Man is the apex of God's creation, created in His image-likeness. Ideal man is the perfect man, the Christ, the offspring of Divine Mind.

Before there could be a man there must have been an idea of man. God, the Father, Divine Mind, had an idea of man, and this idea is his Son, the perfect-man idea, the offspring of God-Mind.

This Son is the Christ, the only begotten of the Father. The Son, being the expressed image-likeness of the Father, is perfect, even as the Father is perfect. All that we find in Divine Mind we find in its offspring.

As you can see, in this frame of reference that Jesus was merely an embryonic thought in the mind of God-Mind united with a Christ anointing of the perfect idea - and what is that perfect idea form God?

The Answer is summed up simply as: Unity to God-mind thru the agency of love - see below:

Chapter 2
GOD
Charles Fillmore
Dynamics For Living

Ideas

The real of the universe is held in the Mind of Being as ideas. The firstborn of everything in the universe is an idea in Divine Mind. In God Mind an idea is the eternal Word or Logos, the original, primary, or unlimited thought of Being. Ideas may be combined in a multitude of ways, producing infinite variety in the realm of forms. There is a right combination which constitutes the divine order.

Love

Love, in Divine Mind, is the idea of universal unity. Of all the attributes of God, love is undoubtedly the most beautiful. Love is the power that joins and binds in divine harmony the universe and everything in it. Divine love is impersonal; it loves for the sake of loving. Love is the great harmonizer.

Now read oldman's quote below and how he explains the Holy Spirit...

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Here is Fillmore on the Holy Spirit:

Chapter 24
Holy Spirit

The question is frequently asked, "Who is the Holy Spirit, and what relation does He bear to God and to Christ?"

The Holy Spirit is the executive power of both Father and Son, carrying out the creative plan. It is the personality of Being. It is the personality of God. It is neither the all of Being nor the fullness of Christ, but is an emanation, or breath, sent forth to do a definite work. Thus circumscribed, He may be said to take on, in a sense, the characteristics of personality, a personality transcending in its capacity the concept of the intellectual man.

The Holy Spirit is described in Scripture as personality and as not always existing for the consciousness of humanity in uniform degree. The mission of Jesus was to open the way for the Holy Spirit to enter into the minds of men.

Function

The function of the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of truth, implies distinct personal subsistence: He speaks, searches, selects, reveals, reproves, testifies, leads, comforts, distributes to every man.
The Holy Spirit is the law of God in action; in that action He appears as having individuality.

Now read Eddy and what she said on this matter and note the correlation to oldman's philosophy...

Holy Ghost or Comforter
Science and Health - Marry Baker Eddy
332

X. Jesus demonstrated Christ; he proved that Christ is the divine idea of God — the Holy Ghost, or Comforter, revealing the divine Principle, Love, and leading into all truth.

Now notice how, oldman stated how the ways of the spirit of truth will overcome lies and delusions... and notice how Eddy suggest the same... in fact Fillmore expresses the more headiness of Oldman but agrees with Eddy that to be free is to deny the material and tap into the divine mind of love... Read for yourself...

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.”

Science and Health 273

Matter and its claims of sin, sickness, and death are contrary to God, and cannot emanate from Him. There is no material truth. The physical senses can take no cognizance of God and spiritual Truth. Human belief has sought out many inventions, but not one of them can solve the problem of being without the divine Principle of divine Science. Deductions from material hypotheses are not scientific.They differ from real Science because they are not based on the divine law.

Science versus sense

Divine Science reverses the false testimony of the material senses, and thus tears away the foundations of error. Hence the enmity between Science and the senses, and the impossibility of attaining perfect understanding till the errors of sense are eliminated.

There is not much difference in what Oldman is stating in what Fillmore and Eddy teaches... It is the same poison well and by the same seducing spirit teaching another Jesus from the occult world...

God's true love warns and seeks to win back those that stray just as it is written:

James 5:19, 20 NASB, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

That is what myself and others on this forum are trying to do with you - oldman - get you back on track with the Real Jesus Christ and away from the occultic Jesus of the Mind Sciences...
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[oldman]

There is not much difference in what Oldman is stating in what Fillmore and Eddy teaches... It is the same poison well and by the same seducing spirit teaching another Jesus from the occult world...

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply becauseNO ONEcan even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.


Is there anyone here who can honestly say what is written above in italics is not evil?

If there is, now is the time to speak.

[RickD]

oldman wrote:
The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

Oldman,

You are simply preaching another gospel. You take Matthew 16:25 out of context to say, "We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake".

I suggest you reread Matthew 16, and see that the text is not talking about the eternal life of a believer. Eternal life is not mentioned in the text.

Eternal life is by God's Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Scripture shows that Peter denied Jesus three times. And by your gospel underlined above, Peter doesn't have eternal life.

So, not only are you preaching a different christ(eternal embryo), by claiming only those who will "faithfully give our lives for His sake", your false gospel is putting a burden on believers that simply is not biblical.

oldman,

I implore you to throw away your false embrionic christ, and your false gospel, and trust in the biblical Christ for your salvation.

[Seraph]

The amount of random passages being bolded by oldman that have nothing to do with the main topic make my head hurt when reading this thread.

[oldman]

oldman wrote:
The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

Oldman,

You are simply preaching another gospel. You take Matthew 16:25 out of context to say, "We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake".

I suggest you reread Matthew 16, and see that the text is not talking about the eternal life of a believer. Eternal life is not mentioned in the text.

I suggest you listen more carefully Rick, I was never referring to the eternal life of a believer, I was referring to the old corrupt mortal lives of fallen man. That is what Jesus was referring to when He said, “whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it”. Only when we see our old corrupt selves dead will the eternal Spirit of truth be in control, only then are we truly born again.

Eternal life is by God's Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Scripture shows that Peter denied Jesus three times. And by your gospel underlined above, Peter doesn't have eternal life.

In the end Peter proved he was worthy of eternal life by seeing his old corrupt self dead. Through being made to see how corrupt, deceitful, cowardly and unworthy his old self was, he made sure he was willing to lose his life before he denied Jesus a fourth time.



The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.


Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply becauseNO ONEcan even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.




Is there anyone here who can honestly say what is written above in italics is not evil?

If there is, now is the time to speak.

[RickD]

oldman wrote:
I suggest you listen more carefully Rick, I was never referring to the eternal life of a believer, I was referring to the old corrupt mortal lives of fallen man. That is what Jesus was referring to when He said, “whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it”. Only when we see our old corrupt selves dead will the eternal Spirit of truth be in control, only then are we truly born again.

You were never referring to the eternal life of a believer? Of course you were. Read your own words that I underlined so you may see:

oldman wrote:
The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

The underlined part you wrote:"We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake".
"To live with God forever" is eternal life. Of course you were talking about eternal life.
So you changed the biblical way of eternal life, by God's grace, through faith in Christ, into your false gospel of God only trusting us to live with Him eternally IF we are willing to give our lives for His sake. So again, you misinterpreted scripture to try to back up your false gospel.

oldman wrote:
In the end Peter proved he was worthy of eternal life by seeing his old corrupt self dead. Through being made to see how corrupt, deceitful, cowardly and unworthy his old self was, he made sure he was willing to lose his life before he denied Jesus a fourth time.

The more you speak, the more your words show you are preaching another gospel. Peter never proved he was worthy of eternal life. Nobody is worthy of eternal life. Eternal life comes when we trust in who Christ is, and what He did.

[B. W.]

...Is there anyone here who can honestly say what is written above in italics is not evil?

If there is, now is the time to speak.

Oldman, here is what Jesus and the apostles actually reveal about eternal life proving your own repeating paragraphs error as you asked to be proven wrong as they are pure deception. Jesus and the Apostles stated these truths, which counter your paragraphs and thus they would say your statements are evil, not me:

John 5:24, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Rom 5:15, 16, 18, "But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification...18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Eph 2:8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast."

John 20:31, "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

(All scripture quotes from the NKJV)

The gift of eternal life is free - it cannot be earned, nor can it be maintained by self effort - self denial. The gift of eternal life is free and it by God's grace alone, he changes us from the inside out. That grace alone that free gift alone is what sets us apart - makes us holy unto him, one step and day at a time.

The Spirit of truth, as defined by you matches what Eddy and Fillmore teach and that is not the True Holy Spirit. likewise, the way you define God's love is the same as Marry Baker Eddy, Charles Fillmore, and the other groups mentioned do, which is not the love of God at all.

You present a false gospel and the works you mention about denying self, appear the very same as Marry Baker Eddy and Charles Fillmore taught, is all based on the Gnostic principle of denying material reality and gelling with the divine mind - hum of the universe - God-Mind-love-being, whose love is merely an impersonal force, condemning no one. Jesus never taught folks to deny reality, nor the actual existence of an actual eternal place of recompense called hell (Matt 25:41, 46c). He did not teach folks to deny symptoms of diseases or sin or the material world, or gel with an impersonal force called love.

John 3:14,15, 16, 36, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life...36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

You do not know the real Jesus Christ, would you like too and find true freedom?
-
-
-

[Jac3510]

I decided to put the arguments in language the oldman ought to be able to appreciate:

• One fine day in the middle of the night
  Two dead boys got up to fight
  Back to back they faced each other
  Drew their swords and shot each other
  
  One was blind and the other couldn't see
  So they chose a dummy for a referee.
  A blind man went to see fair play,
  A dumb man went to shout "hooray!"
  
  A paralyzed donkey passing by,
  Kicked the blind man in the eye,
  Knocked him through a nine inch wall,
  Into a dry ditch and drowned them all,
  
  A deaf policeman heard the noise
  Went and killed the two dead boys
  If you don't believe my story is true
  Ask the blind man . . .
  
  He saw it, too!

MYEYESHAVEBEENOPENEDIDONESEENTHELIGHTHALLELUJAH!!!!111!1

[oldman]

oldman wrote:
I suggest you listen more carefully Rick, I was never referring to the eternal life of a believer, I was referring to the old corrupt mortal lives of fallen man. That is what Jesus was referring to when He said, “whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it”. Only when we see our old corrupt selves dead will the eternal Spirit of truth be in control, only then are we truly born again.

You were never referring to the eternal life of a believer? Of course you were. Read your own words that I underlined so you may see:

oldman wrote:
The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

The underlined part you wrote:"We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake".
"To live with God forever" is eternal life. Of course you were talking about eternal life.

Listen, only when we can be trusted to give our lives for Jesus' sake do we become followers of, and believers in, the truth. Unless we can be trusted to give our lives for His sake, we shall never be trusted to live with God forever but shall remain unbelieving and unsaved.

The more you speak, the more your words show you are preaching another gospel. Peter never proved he was worthy of eternal life. Nobody is worthy of eternal life. Eternal life comes when we trust in who Christ is, and what He did.

If we truly trust in Christ and what He did then we shall willingly give our lives for His sake.


Peter proved he was worthy of eternal life by seeing his old corrupt self dead. Through being made to see how corrupt, deceitful, cowardly and unworthy his old self was, he made sure he was willing to lose his life before he denied Jesus a fourth time.



Having seen how pride had convinced me I was the better man when I compared myself to certain others, and having seen how this pride corrupts our ability to reason correctly by causing us to live by lies and delusion, I was made to see very clearly that before any of us can be sure we are living by the truth we must first be sure the cause of living by lies and delusion has been completely removed from us. I came to see also that this removal can be achieved but only when we are living faithfully by these two commandments:

In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”


Simple logical deductions showed that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also showed me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.


To those of you who see my understanding of God as a work of evil, I say this. You have your faith and I have mine, and I know my faith leads me constantly to strive to see my old corrupt self dead whenever it shows it's ugly head. If our faith doesn't do this then it is dead.

The apostle Paul told the Philippians, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

The question we should keep asking ourselves then is this, is our faith alive or dead? Do we strive to see our old corrupt selves dead or do we deceive ourselves into believing we are saved when we are not? “Faith without works is dead”James 2:14-26




The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.




Is there anyone here who can honestly say what I have written in this post is not evil?

If so, now is the time to speak.

[RickD]

oldman wrote:

Listen, only when we can be trusted to give our lives for Jesus' sake do we become followers of, and believers in, the truth. Unless we can be trusted to give our lives for His sake, we shall never be trusted to live with God forever but shall remain unbelieving and unsaved.

No oldman. You are promoting a false gospel!
No matter how many times you say this, it doesn't change it into something other than a false gospel.

If we truly trust in Christ and what He did then we shall willingly give our lives for His sake.

Thankfully we don't have to rely on anything we "willingly" do, in order to be saved. We just have to trust Christ. Believe in who He is, and what He has done.

Simple logical deductions showed that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also showed me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.

Nobody can "always" follow those commands. If we had the power to always follow God's commands, then Christ's sacrifice is worthless. Why would Christ have to die for the sins of the world, if we could do it on our own?


Oldman,

Please take your false embryo christ, and your false gospel and go some place else. This forum is not for you.