The Eternal Sonship of Christ

[B. W.]

Oldman,

We have taken the time to go thru this with. I have shown how your own words mirror Christian Science's founder Mary Baker Eddy and New Thought - Unity school founder Charles Fillmore. You used the same language and tones. Next your doctrine mirrors parts of the Christadelphian and parts of the Branhamite doctrines, etc. These are telling in that you agree with known cultist who stray away form Christ Jesus. Others on this forum have shown that you do not hold to the tired and tested Christian doctrines regarding who Jesus is and the Divine Trinity. You were shown quotes by other readers from Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica to be sure we all were on the same page regarding procession and you proved you were not.

Again, in my opinion, you appear to think that your doctrine is solely your own given to you by divine inspiration, yet, the manner, phrases, tones, doctrine mirrors the known non Christian groups I mentioned. That should send shivers down your spine. The Lord brought you here for a purpose and this purpose maybe was to warn you that you are not on the correct path but are following something else. All we can do here is warn you and suggest you ask us about how to meet the real Jesus Christ, become truly born again in the fullness of the word. Please become reconciled to Christ Jesus before it is too late.
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[oldman]

Oldman,

All we can do here is warn you and suggest you ask us about how to meet the real Jesus Christ, become truly born again in the fullness of the word. Please become reconciled to Christ Jesus before it is too late.

All I can do for you B.W. is to warn you and suggest that you seriously take heed of the following before it is too late.

[oldman]

oldman wrote:


If we truly trust in Christ and what He did then we shall willingly give our lives for His sake.

Thankfully we don't have to rely on anything we "willingly" do, in order to be saved.

It is true that by faith alone we are saved, but faith that does not move us to see our old corrupt self dead, is a dead faith.

We just have to trust Christ.

Unless we can be trusted to give our lives for His sake, we will not be trusted to live with Him forever.

Believe in who He is, and what He has done.

When we are trusted to give our lives for Jesus' sake only then do we become true believers in Him, for only then do we believe and take heed of what He tells us: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25

In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

oldman wrote:

Simple logical deductions showed that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also showed me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.

Nobody can "always" follow those commands. If we had the power to always follow God's commands, then Christ's sacrifice is worthless.

No imperfect being can be expected to "always" follow those commands. But it is a living faith in the finished work of the Son of God that enables true believers to follow the way of reason into a state of perfection and complete salvation.

I am not perfect, far from it. But if I persevere in the only way of truth, even though I will stumble in my imperfect state, I know God can and will make me perfect.

Why would Christ have to die for the sins of the world, if we could do it on our own?

I never said we could do it on our own. When Christ died for me He took my punishment, as well as showing me the only way to be right with God: As He poured out His life for me, so I am now also ready to do the same for His sake. And what is "His sake" if it is not the glory of His love and endless joy in free and endless creation? I would now gladly die than to live as an offence to the Spirit of truth revealed to me in full through the finished work of my only redeemer, the Son of God.

We who have a living faith in Him will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

Oldman,

Please take your false embryo christ, and your false gospel and go some place else. This forum is not for you.

Sorry Rick, I thought his Forum was for speaking the truth: All we believe we have witnessed and all that logic and reason tell us. But don't worry, I don't think I will be staying with you, with no positive feedback here I have to agree with your last sentence, this forum is not for me.

Thank you for a good discussion though, and best wishes to you all.

Yours in Christ,
Rob

[B. W.]

oldman wrote:


If we truly trust in Christ and what He did then we shall willingly give our lives for His sake.

Thankfully we don't have to rely on anything we "willingly" do, in order to be saved.

It is true that by faith alone we are saved, but faith that does not move us to see our old corrupt self dead, is a dead faith.

We just have to trust Christ.

Unless we can be trusted to give our lives for His sake, we will not be trusted to live with Him forever.

Believe in who He is, and what He has done.

When we are trusted to give our lives for Jesus' sake only then do we become true believers in Him, for only then do we believe and take heed of what He tells us: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25

In Mark 12:28-31 it is written, And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

oldman wrote:

Simple logical deductions showed that only by valuing these two commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences that would have us place an inferior value to ourselves on others, shall we ever find no reason to deceive and offend anyone. Simple logical deductions also showed me that only by truly valuing the man who first gave us these greatest of all commandments, above all other men and gods, shall I seriously value His commandments above all other opposing commands, doctrines, forces and influences also; and only by living always by His two greatest commandments shall I find no reason to deceive and offend anyone including myself.

Nobody can "always" follow those commands. If we had the power to always follow God's commands, then Christ's sacrifice is worthless.

No imperfect being can be expected to "always" follow those commands. But it is a living faith in the finished work of the Son of God that enables true believers to follow the way of reason into a state of perfection and complete salvation.

I am not perfect, far from it. But if I persevere in the only way of truth, even though I will stumble in my imperfect state, I know God can and will make me perfect.

Why would Christ have to die for the sins of the world, if we could do it on our own?

I never said we could do it on our own. When Christ died for me He took my punishment, as well as showing me the only way to be right with God: As He poured out His life for me, so I am now also ready to do the same for His sake. And what is "His sake" if it is not the glory of His love and endless joy in free and endless creation? I would now gladly die than to live as an offence to the Spirit of truth revealed to me in full through the finished work of my only redeemer, the Son of God.

We who have a living faith in Him will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

Oldman,

Please take your false embryo christ, and your false gospel and go some place else. This forum is not for you.

Sorry Rick, I thought his Forum was for speaking the truth: All we believe we have witnessed and all that logic and reason tell us. But don't worry, I don't think I will be staying with you, with no positive feedback here I have to agree with your last sentence, this forum is not for me.

Thank you for a good discussion though, and best wishes to you all.

Yours in Christ,
Rob

Please note - to follow a way of reason is not what saves - again the use of the cultist groups phraseology mentioned suggest Gnostic undertones - save by reason i.e. knowledge and then demand surrender to the secret wisdom is not what Jesus, the real Jesus was saying in John 3:14-21 and Paul wrote in Eph 2:8,9,10.

God's gift of salvation is free - by Grace. Save by Grace through Faith...

Rob, you have mixed a lot of Gnostic ideas into the message you share here. The truth claims are subtle and come close at times to mirror the real good news but then your messages strays off course. Jesus is not an embryo in God's thought and came into being only during the early first century AD. His being in the mind of the Father to be created later on does not imply that Jesus was a mere eternal concept, an idea, so therefore Jesus eternally existed as an idea in God's mind to be released later on. That is what you presented, That is not truth about who Jesus really is, Jac and Byblos both brought that out clear enough a few pages back.

As stated before: True love will warn a person that the bridge is out ahead, not allow a traveler to blindly press on to doom. Even to the point of shouting!

You were the one that condemned us and pronounced judgment against if one does not agree with you. That does not bear witness to the truth you claim to possess, However, we warn you with love and tuff love of that the bridge is out ahead. That is all we can do. All we can do is shout - wake the heck up - bridge out ahead! That is not condemning - only doing what James 5:19, 20 says: Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. NKJV
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[oldman]

Couldn't really leave without replying to this, could I?

your messages strays off course. Jesus is not an embryo in God's thought and came into being only during the early first century AD. His being in the mind of the Father to be created later on does not imply that Jesus was a mere eternal concept, an idea, so therefore Jesus eternally existed as an idea in God's mind to be released later on. That is what you presented, That is not truth about who Jesus really is,

You have altered the meaning of what I explained earlier concerning the Word of God. Let me try again then to explain what I see.

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son first existed only as a spiritual embryo in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father was a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son, before creation began.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

Jesus is God and the Son of the God who is His Father. Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” united as one God through the only proven Spirit of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.


And just to remind you again: To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the true meaning of “Father” and “Son”.



Can you see now?

Try to remember B.W., the truth is all we have to keep us sane.

[RickD]

Round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows...

oldman wrote:
... This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son, before creation began.)...

So, the Son is eternal, but He became another person? So He changed from non-person to person? And you don't see the problem with what you're saying? An eternal, immutable God, changed?

[oldman]

Round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows...

God knows.

So, the Son is eternal, but He became another person?

Eternal in the sense that He came from His Father in eternity before creation began.

So He changed from non-person to person?

Before any creation began, He grew from the eternal person existing only in His Father's eternal thoughts into the free thinking mind we now call the Son of the Father.

And you don't see the problem with what you're saying?

I see no problem with this.

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only as a spiritual embryo in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father was a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son. before creation began.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

An eternal, immutable God, changed?

To deny the Son came from God the Father in eternity before creation began we would first need to deny the true meaning of “Father” and “Son”.






I wrote...

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust. All who have faith in this Spirit will have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.




...and I asked, Is there anyone here who can honestly say what is written above in italics is not evil?

With no positive answer to that question I came to the conclusion this forum is not for me.

As for you Rick, whatever good reason I give to you, you will either ignore (as in the clear case of the third post down on this page) or try and subtly alter the meaning of what I have written (as in the clear case of B.W. in the fourth post down on this page).

So once again, thank you Rick for a good discussion and for helping to reveal the truth about this place a little more.

As you think it is time for me to be moving on, so also do I think the same, but God only knows for sure what the time will be when I leave for good.


See you soon you brood of vipers

[RickD]

Oldman,

I found this link which seems to be saying something similar to what you're saying, but leaving out the mumbo jumbo. Tell me what you think:
http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-f ... son-of-god

[Seraph]

Oldman, I have a question. If Jesus existed only as a spiritual embryo in the mind of God before his birth on this planet, what sets Him apart from the rest of us? Haven't we all existed in God's thoughts before we were born? What sets Jesus apart as God incarnate/the Son of God?