Atheism: Belief or Position?

[1over137]

You are Kenny, I am me, neo is neo, dan is dan and that's it.

[RickD]

kenny wrote:
Besides, Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnostic is about what you know; a completely different question.

Kenny,

You do realize what agnostic means, don't you?

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

An agnostic believes...

[Kenny]

kenny wrote:
Besides, Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnostic is about what you know; a completely different question.

Kenny,

You do realize what agnostic means, don't you?

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

An agnostic believes...

Faith is about believing; disbelief is about not believing, and agnostic is about what you know. Even the definition you provided says it is about what is known.

Ken

[Jac3510]

Agnosticism is the belief or position that knowledge about the existence of God is impossible. It is a belief about knowledge concerning God. It follows from the nature of agnosticism that agnostics don't know whether God exists or not, but not knowing whether God exists and not having any beliefs about His existence isn't enough to make a person an agnostic. In other words, agnosticism is not about whether you know God exists as in theism or know He does not exist as in atheism. It's about what you believe can in principle be known about His existence. It is not, then, ignorance, as if it were a mediate position between theism and atheism. On the contrary, it is an intellectually grounded position. It says, "I know that given the nature of the question, God's existence cannot be demonstrated rationally."

This might clarify thing a bit:

• 1. Can God's existence be known?
  a) Yes - see q.2
  b) No - you are an agnostic
  2. Does God exist?
  a) Yes - see q.3
  b) No - you are an atheist
  3. Is God distinct from creation?
  a) Yes - see q.4
  b) No - You are a pantheist
  4. Does God involve Himself with His creation? That is, is God working to bring creation to a particular goal or end?
  a) Yes - You are a theist
  b) No - You are a deist

This is a bit simplified, but it should make the relationship between agnosticism, theism, atheism, belief, and knowledge all rather clear.

[Kenny]

[quote="Jac3510"]Agnosticism is the belief or position that knowledge about the existence of God is impossible. It is a belief about knowledge concerning God. It follows from the nature of agnosticism that agnostics don't know whether God exists or not, but not knowing whether God exists and not having any beliefs about His existence isn't enough to make a person an agnostic. In other words, agnosticism is not about whether you know God exists as in theism or know He does not exist as in atheism. It's about what you believe can in principle be known about His existence. It is not, then, ignorance, as if it were a mediate position between theism and atheism. On the contrary, it is an intellectually grounded position. It says, "I know that given the nature of the question, God's existence cannot be demonstrated rationally."

This might clarify thing a bit:

• 1. Can God's existence be known?
  a) Yes - see q.2
  b) No - you are an agnostic
  
  
  In order to answer this question, the person asking must first define what they mean by God
  If God is a tree, obviously his existence is know. If God is something akin to the God described in the Bible, Koran, Vedas, etc. your answer may be a little different.
  
  2. Does God exist?
  a) Yes - see q.3
  b) No - you are an atheist
  
  Again it depends on who you call God! If your God is a tree; of course he exists! If something else; maybe, maybe not!
  
  3. Is God distinct from creation?
  a) Yes - see q.4
  b) No - You are a pantheist
  
  I think it depends on how you define creation. If you define it as to make something from nothing, not everybody agrees this has ever happened. If you describe it as making something from existing materials; then you will need to describe your idea of God.
  
  
  
  All my comments are in Bold
  
  Ken

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

All my comments are in Bold

Ken,

If you want to be taken seriously as an atheist, you'll have to come up with more thought-out answers & ideas. As it is, your comments are just silly.

FL

[Jac3510]

ok kenny

[Kenny]

If you guys disagree with anything I've said thus far, please state exactly what it is that you disagree with and we can go from there
To simply dismiss what I say without explanation accomplishes nothing.

Ken

[Jac3510]

Given the quality of your responses already, I really don't see the point, so I decline.

All the best to you.

[Kenny]

Given the quality of your responses already, I really don't see the point, so I decline.

All the best to you.

Hum... Why am I not surprised?

K

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Hum... Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

Sorry.

FL

[Kenny]

Hum... Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

Sorry.

FL

If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.

Ken

[Kenny]

But getting back to why I find agnostic a flaw position, if somebody asked "do you believe in God" and you reply in typical agnostic fashion; "there is no way of knowing weather God exists or not" you haven't answered the question because the question was about what you BELIEVE, not what you know.

Ken

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.

Christians are largely a polite bunch, especially the American Christians on this site. I am a former atheist, and I'm not a polite American: you seem like a dimwit and I told you why:

You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

You may want to read Atheism, The Case Against God, which is an introduction to common atheist argumuments against the existence of God. While you're at it, read The Atheist Debater's Handbook. These two books will help put some thinking into your thinking.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

FL

[Kenny]

If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.

Christians are largely a polite bunch, especially the American Christians on this site. I am a former atheist, and I'm not a polite American: you seem like a dimwit and I told you why:

You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

You may want to read Atheism, The Case Against God, which is an introduction to common atheist argumuments against the existence of God. While you're at it, read The Atheist Debater's Handbook. These two books will help put some thinking into your thinking.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

FL

Do you really believe insulting me is going to make your point? All I ask is if you disagree with me, state your disagreement; and thus far nobody has done that.
As far as the books you suggest I read; why don't YOU read the books and tell me where I am comming up short.

Ken