Atheism: Belief or Position?

[bippy123]

kenny wrote:
Besides, Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnostic is about what you know; a completely different question.

Kenny,

You do realize what agnostic means, don't you?

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

An agnostic believes...

Faith is about believing; disbelief is about not believing, and agnostic is about what you know. Even the definition you provided says it is about what is known.

Ken

Kenny, Christian Faith isnt just about believing its about reason and faith coming together. Christian faith is a reasonable faith. Why do you think when Paul came to the corinthians to preach the gospel to them his words were come and let us reason together. The scientific method itself was born out of a Christian worldview, if you dont believe that all you would need to do is check your history and even unbelieving Chinese Sinnologist Professor Joseph needham admitted that there was an explosion in scientific acievement in the west while scientific growth in China stagnated because of the fact that Christians believe in god that is harmonious and orderly and endowed nature with laws that are orderly and harmonious, there was nothing in the chinese spiritual beliefs that told them to trust that the universe would be orderly and harmonious.

Plus subjective experience shouldnt be written off because it cant be held and tested repeated in a laboratory. Its simply too narrow of a view and it will keep people from knowing the fullness of truth.

And by evidence for God I hope you dont mean scientific evidence alone as that would classify you as a believer in scientism, that only science can assertain all truth claims in the world.

and finally ill leave you with a quote from agnostic American astronomer, physicist and cosmologist Robert jastrow who was a leading NASA scientist
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes ... rt_Jastrow

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
― Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers

Looks like that pesky shroud of turin is starting to catch your curiousity isnt it
Keep researching it to satisfy your curiousity

[Kenny]

Plus subjective experience shouldnt be written off because it cant be held and tested repeated in a laboratory. Its simply too narrow of a view and it will keep people from knowing the fullness of truth.

What do you mean when you say; "subjective experience"?

And by evidence for God I hope you dont mean scientific evidence alone as that would classify you as a believer in scientism, that only science can assertain all truth claims in the world.

What other system of inquire would you suggest be used?

Looks like that pesky shroud of turin is starting to catch your curiousity isnt it
Keep researching it to satisfy your curiousity

A lot of stuff on this site has caught my curiousity. Thanks for the replies

Ken

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Do you really believe insulting me is going to make your point? All I ask is if you disagree with me, state your disagreement; and thus far nobody has done that.As far as the books you suggest I read; why don't YOU read the books and tell me where I am comming up short.

I'm not insulting you. I'm just telling you how you come across to me:

...you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

and,

If you want to be taken seriously as an atheist, you'll have to come up with more thought-out answers & ideas. As it is, your comments are just silly.

I think you must be very young; you sound like you are in your teens. You need more structure in your thinking.

I have already read the books on atheism that I recommended to you. And I have already told you where you are ''coming up short''.

FL

[Kenny]

I'm not insulting you. I'm just telling you how you come across to me:

If you honestly believed I were ugly and that my mother dressed me funny, it would still be an insult to tell me so. IOW it's all in the delivery.

I think you must be very young; you sound like you are in your teens. You need more structure in your thinking.

Insulting me is not going to convert me to your way of thinking; it will of anything have the opposite effect.

I have already read the books on atheism that I recommended to you. And I have already told you where you are ''coming up short''.

To read a book on atheism and assume you know everything about atheists is akin to reading a book about black people and assuming you now know everything about all Black people. Perhaps you should try talking to one. talk to me! I promise you; talking to me in a civilized way will get you a lot further than the insults you have been throwing around lately

Ken

[Jac3510]

Kenny,

He's trying to tell you how you are presenting yourself. If you are so shallow and thin skinned that you want people to pretend like you are making salient points when you are not, I'm afraid that you aren't going to learn very much about anything.

Do you honestly think you are the first atheist we've talked to, who has been to these boards? Do you think you will be the last? Do you think we need to learn something about atheism? You came here. We didn't come to you. Perhaps you should take your own advice and you should try to learn something, starting with listening to some very highly educated and experienced people about how you are presenting yourself. Fifteen year old kids might find your arguments interesting. For those of us who have been doing this for years--some of us for decades--we're trying to tell you that what you presenting is . . . weak, to put it politely.

You also would do well to stop assuming things about people's past here. Some of the people you are talking to were once committed atheists. And some of us have atheistic families. And others of us have been studying atheism for a very long time.

We're trying to help you. If you really are so arrogant as to think that you are going to waltz in here and in the space of a few posts point out difficulties in Christianity that we have never heard, that we have never seen, that we haven't already responded to hundreds of times, then you are terribly, terribly naive. And that is in large part why FL made the comment about your age. Frankly, I suspect he is correct.

Look, you have yourself a golden opportunity here. You say you are an atheist. Fine. Then man up about it. Put your beliefs to the test. Stop presuming you know anything about us and start asking sincere questions. There are some highly educated people here. Or, you can keep playing your boring games, and a few people may answer a question or two, but by and large you will be ignored. You will be convinced in your tiny, narrow, little world that somehow you've scared us or that we just can't respond to you amazing intellect, and you'll prevent yourself from seeing what we see.

Ball's in your court. You can decide which role you want to play.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

If you honestly believed I were ugly and that my mother dressed me funny, it would still be an insult to tell me so. IOW it's all in the delivery.

Pastor Steve Brown uses the very terminology I put into italics, above. If you listen to Steve Brown, you can't be a total loser.

To read a book on atheism and assume you know everything about atheists is akin to reading a book about black people and assuming you now know everything about all Black people. Perhaps you should try talking to one. talk to me! I promise you; talking to me in a civilized way will get you a lot further than the insults you have been throwing around lately

I was an atheist for most of my life. I was raised an atheist and I remained an atheist until my 40s. I didn't just ''read a book'' about atheism and assume I knew everything. So...listen to me when I talk to you: your answers and comments betray ignorance on many levels.

Listen, there is an unbeliever here who is young like you, smart and well-read. His name is Ivellious. Read some of his posts and learn. Model yourself on him. As you now are, you make atheists look bad.

FL

PS: Read Jac's post, above.

[bippy123]

Plus subjective experience shouldnt be written off because it cant be held and tested repeated in a laboratory. Its simply too narrow of a view and it will keep people from knowing the fullness of truth.

What do you mean when you say; "subjective experience"?

And by evidence for God I hope you dont mean scientific evidence alone as that would classify you as a believer in scientism, that only science can assertain all truth claims in the world.

What other system of inquire would you suggest be used?

Looks like that pesky shroud of turin is starting to catch your curiousity isnt it
Keep researching it to satisfy your curiousity

A lot of stuff on this site has caught my curiousity. Thanks for the replies

Ken

Very welcome Kenny. You might also want to check up on this little amazing piece of science that God himself predicted in the book of job. Something that wasnt discovered until the mid 20th century, and you will also know after this that there are specific scientific claims by God in the bible that have come true.



http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/

Job 38:31-32
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Now God makes a statement about three stellar constellations, and as we examine these, we’ll see that science has only recently confirmed something that God told us a long time ago. First let’s take a look at what God says about Orion: ‘Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?’ God is talking specifically about the three stars that form the belt on the Orion constellation. These three stars appeared to be fixed on our sky, rigidly aligned to form a relatively straight line. Yet God asks Job, “Hey do you think YOU can loosen this band?” It’s as if He is saying, “Well, I can buddy!” It may seem as though the band of stars is fixed, but Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in his book “Curiosities of the Sky”. Today, this band consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars that are equally spaced and very beautiful. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In other words, one star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed. As a matter of fact, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. As time passes, this band of stars will indeed be loosened, just as God told Job.

[Kenny]

Jac3510 Kenny,

He's trying to tell you how you are presenting yourself. If you are so shallow and thin skinned that you want people to pretend like you are making salient points when you are not, I'm afraid that you aren't going to learn very much about anything

Kenny Why would you assume I am trying to convince people of anything? All I did was questions.

Jac 3510: Do you honestly think you are the first atheist we've talked to, who has been to these boards? Do you think you will be the last? Do you think we need to learn something about atheism? You came here. We didn't come to you. Perhaps you should take your own advice and you should try to learn something.
Kenny: What advise did I ever give that I don’t apply to myself?

Jac3510 starting with listening to some very highly educated and experienced people about how you are presenting yourself. Fifteen year old kids might find your arguments interesting. For those of us who have been doing this for years--some of us for decades--we're trying to tell you that what you presenting is . . . weak, to put it politely

Kenny How many times have I politely asked “if you disagree with me, or if I am in error, please show me” But instead of showing me where I am in error, all he says is that I am coming across as foolish

Jac3510 You also would do well to stop assuming things about people's past here. Some of the people you are talking to were once committed atheists. And some of us have atheistic families. And others of us have been studying atheism for a very long time.

Kenny What assumptions have i made about people’s past here?

Jac3510 We're trying to help you. If you really are so arrogant as to think that you are going to waltz in here and in the space of a few posts point out difficulties in Christianity that we have never heard, that we have never seen, that we haven't already responded to hundreds of times, then you are terribly, terribly naive. And that is in large part why FL made the comment about your age. Frankly, I suspect he is correct

Kenny What are you talking about??? This conversation isn’t even about Christianity! We were talking about agnosticism. Someone said I was agnostic and I pointed out my disagreements with the agnostic position. Why on earth would you assume i was trying to dispel Christianity?

Jac3510 Look, you have yourself a golden opportunity here. You say you are an atheist. Fine. Then man up about it. Put your beliefs to the test. Stop presuming you know anything about us and start asking sincere questions


Kenny All my questions are sincere. All I ask for is an answer, something I haven’t gotten yet.

Jac3510 There are some highly educated people here. Or, you can keep playing your boring games, and a few people may answer a question or two, but by and large you will be ignored. You will be convinced in your tiny, narrow, little world that somehow you've scared us or that we just can't respond to you amazing intellect, and you'll prevent yourself from seeing what we see.

]Ball's in your court. You can decide which role you want to play.

Kenny All I did was ask questions. Do you now want me to ask any questions? If not, what are you asking me to do?

Ken

[Kenny]

If you honestly believed I were ugly and that my mother dressed me funny, it would still be an insult to tell me so. IOW it's all in the delivery.

Pastor Steve Brown uses the very terminology I put into italics, above. If you listen to Steve Brown, you can't be a total loser.

To read a book on atheism and assume you know everything about atheists is akin to reading a book about black people and assuming you now know everything about all Black people. Perhaps you should try talking to one. talk to me! I promise you; talking to me in a civilized way will get you a lot further than the insults you have been throwing around lately

I was an atheist for most of my life. I was raised an atheist and I remained an atheist until my 40s. I didn't just ''read a book'' about atheism and assume I knew everything. So...listen to me when I talk to you: your answers and comments betray ignorance on many levels.

Listen, there is an unbeliever here who is young like you, smart and well-read. His name is Ivellious. Read some of his posts and learn. Model yourself on him. As you now are, you make atheists look bad.

FL

PS: Read Jac's post, above.

As I've said before, if you disagree with anything I've said; point it out to me; show me were I've gone wrong.

Ken

[Kenny]

Very welcome Kenny. You might also want to check up on this little amazing piece of science that God himself predicted in the book of job. Something that wasnt discovered until the mid 20th century, and you will also know after this that there are specific scientific claims by God in the bible that have come true.



http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/

Job 38:31-32
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Now God makes a statement about three stellar constellations, and as we examine these, we’ll see that science has only recently confirmed something that God told us a long time ago. First let’s take a look at what God says about Orion: ‘Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?’ God is talking specifically about the three stars that form the belt on the Orion constellation. These three stars appeared to be fixed on our sky, rigidly aligned to form a relatively straight line. Yet God asks Job, “Hey do you think YOU can loosen this band?” It’s as if He is saying, “Well, I can buddy!” It may seem as though the band of stars is fixed, but Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in his book “Curiosities of the Sky”. Today, this band consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars that are equally spaced and very beautiful. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In other words, one star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed. As a matter of fact, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. As time passes, this band of stars will indeed be loosened, just as God told Job.

Were the Christians who read the book of Job before the 20th century claiming this to be true?

Ken

[bippy123]

Very welcome Kenny. You might also want to check up on this little amazing piece of science that God himself predicted in the book of job. Something that wasnt discovered until the mid 20th century, and you will also know after this that there are specific scientific claims by God in the bible that have come true.



http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/

Job 38:31-32
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Now God makes a statement about three stellar constellations, and as we examine these, we’ll see that science has only recently confirmed something that God told us a long time ago. First let’s take a look at what God says about Orion: ‘Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?’ God is talking specifically about the three stars that form the belt on the Orion constellation. These three stars appeared to be fixed on our sky, rigidly aligned to form a relatively straight line. Yet God asks Job, “Hey do you think YOU can loosen this band?” It’s as if He is saying, “Well, I can buddy!” It may seem as though the band of stars is fixed, but Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in his book “Curiosities of the Sky”. Today, this band consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars that are equally spaced and very beautiful. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In other words, one star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed. As a matter of fact, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. As time passes, this band of stars will indeed be loosened, just as God told Job.

Were the Christians who read the book of Job before the 20th century claiming this to be true?

Ken

Good question Kenny, I dont believe anyone could have known about this until that astronomer discovered this. What is more important is that no one religion or culture made this prediction other then God in the book of Job. Not even the ancient greek or babylonians knew about this. What God was trying to do was humble Job who was starting to get an attitude with him.
God put him in his place and at the same time gave us info that no one could have known at that time. If you go back and read the rest of that link u would see that God also made a few other scientific predictions of what he could do and those were also confirmed.



but God didnt makescience the focus of his word. He wanted our salvation to be the first focus
The question ken is what will u do with this information? How will it effect your life

[Kenny]

Very welcome Kenny. You might also want to check up on this little amazing piece of science that God himself predicted in the book of job. Something that wasnt discovered until the mid 20th century, and you will also know after this that there are specific scientific claims by God in the bible that have come true.



http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/

Job 38:31-32
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Now God makes a statement about three stellar constellations, and as we examine these, we’ll see that science has only recently confirmed something that God told us a long time ago. First let’s take a look at what God says about Orion: ‘Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?’ God is talking specifically about the three stars that form the belt on the Orion constellation. These three stars appeared to be fixed on our sky, rigidly aligned to form a relatively straight line. Yet God asks Job, “Hey do you think YOU can loosen this band?” It’s as if He is saying, “Well, I can buddy!” It may seem as though the band of stars is fixed, but Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in his book “Curiosities of the Sky”. Today, this band consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars that are equally spaced and very beautiful. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In other words, one star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed. As a matter of fact, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. As time passes, this band of stars will indeed be loosened, just as God told Job.

Were the Christians who read the book of Job before the 20th century claiming this to be true?

Ken

Good question Kenny, I dont believe anyone could have known about this until that astronomer discovered this. What is more important is that no one religion or culture made this prediction other then God in the book of Job. Not even the ancient greek or babylonians knew about this. What God was trying to do was humble Job who was starting to get an attitude with him.
God put him in his place and at the same time gave us info that no one could have known at that time. If you go back and read the rest of that link u would see that God also made a few other scientific predictions of what he could do and those were also confirmed.



but God didnt makescience the focus of his word. He wanted our salvation to be the first focus
The question ken is what will u do with this information? How will it effect your life

Thanx for the info. I have to ask though; if God knows everything and he were going to present some knowledge that wouldn’t be discovered by science for thousands of years, why would he choose to present something that couldn’t be understood by those who read the bible? Why would he choose something that could only be claimed by Christians only after science discovered it? He could have mentioned that the Earth was sphere shaped, that the Earth rotated around the Sun, or he could have introduced the idea of sanitization of tools used during childbirth; something that not only would have saved countless lives but would also cause the bible to stick out of the crowd of other Holy Texts to non Christians?

Ken

[bippy123]

Very welcome Kenny. You might also want to check up on this little amazing piece of science that God himself predicted in the book of job. Something that wasnt discovered until the mid 20th century, and you will also know after this that there are specific scientific claims by God in the bible that have come true.



http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/

Job 38:31-32
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Now God makes a statement about three stellar constellations, and as we examine these, we’ll see that science has only recently confirmed something that God told us a long time ago. First let’s take a look at what God says about Orion: ‘Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?’ God is talking specifically about the three stars that form the belt on the Orion constellation. These three stars appeared to be fixed on our sky, rigidly aligned to form a relatively straight line. Yet God asks Job, “Hey do you think YOU can loosen this band?” It’s as if He is saying, “Well, I can buddy!” It may seem as though the band of stars is fixed, but Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in his book “Curiosities of the Sky”. Today, this band consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars that are equally spaced and very beautiful. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In other words, one star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed. As a matter of fact, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. As time passes, this band of stars will indeed be loosened, just as God told Job.

Were the Christians who read the book of Job before the 20th century claiming this to be true?

Ken

Good question Kenny, I dont believe anyone could have known about this until that astronomer discovered this. What is more important is that no one religion or culture made this prediction other then God in the book of Job. Not even the ancient greek or babylonians knew about this. What God was trying to do was humble Job who was starting to get an attitude with him.
God put him in his place and at the same time gave us info that no one could have known at that time. If you go back and read the rest of that link u would see that God also made a few other scientific predictions of what he could do and those were also confirmed.



but God didnt makescience the focus of his word. He wanted our salvation to be the first focus
The question ken is what will u do with this information? How will it effect your life

Thanx for the info. I have to ask though; if God knows everything and he were going to present some knowledge that wouldn’t be discovered by science for thousands of years, why would he choose to present something that couldn’t be understood by those who read the bible? Why would he choose something that could only be claimed by Christians only after science discovered it? He could have mentioned that the Earth was sphere shaped, that the Earth rotated around the Sun, or he could have introduced the idea of sanitization of tools used during childbirth; something that not only would have saved countless lives but would also cause the bible to stick out of the crowd of other Holy Texts to non Christians?

Ken

Ken think of your journey towards God as a journey of awe. Your question could just as easily be applied to the shroud of turin. Why did he leave this imprint on the shroud that wouldn't be better known until starting about 120 years ago.
Call it a wonderous journey . We will probably never fully understand all of the reasons and why God does what he does until we see him face to face in the afterlife.

Isn't this good enough for you to have this amazing piece of information from the book of job?
Doesn't that make you stand in awe and wonder at the power of God.

[Kenny]

Bippy123

Ken think of your journey towards God as a journey of awe. Your question could just as easily be applied to the shroud of turin. Why did he leave this imprint on the shroud that wouldn't be better known until starting about 120 years ago.
Call it a wonderous journey . We will probably never fully understand all of the reasons and why God does what he does until we see him face to face in the afterlife.

Isn't this good enough for you to have this amazing piece of information from the book of job?
Doesn't that make you stand in awe and wonder at the power of God

Ken It is my understanding that there are some scriptures in the bible that can be seen as confirming what science has discovered only recently. I believe Isaiah 40:22 implies the Earth shape is a sphere! But it is so vague that the people who read the scripture had no idea that this scripture suggested so because they continued to believe the Earth was flat until explorers discovered that the earth was round. The bible isn’t the only sacred text that has this, I remember one of my Muslim friends was showing me how the Koran had a lot of stuff in it that science is only now discovering, but when pressed he admitted they waited till science made the discovery then they looked in the Koran and claimed “it was in there all the time we just missed it!” Needless to say, I am sceptical when these claims are made by religious folk, If they could predict something BEFORE science discovers it, that would be different; but that is never the case.

However I definitively understand why this is something that strengthens your faith!

Ken

[1over137]

"I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree: "The intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how heaven goes."" -- Galileo Galilei