Which one is right

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Seriously? So let me ask you a question.. Let's say you get married to a beautiful wife. But you see she has this habit.. You see she likes to sleep with other men.. So you are telling me that this doesn't matter for the relationship to flourish?

No, you're right. My beautiful wife damn well better obey all my commandments I've given her. Then it'll flourish.
Actually if she just obeys my commands that she's able to, then that will show me she loves me.

[RickD]

B. W. Wrote:
The once saved always saved doctrine (OSAS) is based upon easy fairy tale believism that has a tendency to make lazy bridesmaids and false believers who abuse grace and mix worldly ideas into their Christianity such things as Chrislam, diversity at the exclusion of identity, and political correctness to rule the church and not the word of God. It makes sanctification an separate option from salvation not part of the same coin. It uses the shotgun effect - have as many people pray a simple prayer in hopes a few get on board, then leave them all to just flounder about while priding oneself on the number of conversions.

With all due respect B. W., I think you've misrepresented osas here. You've made the same mistake that the lordship salvation crowd has made. OSAS is simply the belief that once one trusts in Christ for salvation, one is saved. Period.
Are there people who are saved, hold to OSAS, and think they can live however they want? I'm sure there are some like that. But it's not the doctrine of OSAS that gets them to not live by the spirit and grow in Christ. It's simply their own sin of thinking they can do whatever they want.
And as far as salvation and sanctification being separate, they are as separate as being a believer and a disciple are separate. Maybe think of it this way, salvation is by God's grace through faith in/trusting Christ. Sanctification is by the power of the Holy Spirit, through continued faith/trusting Christ.


OSAS is nothing more than eternal security in God, by God.

Why I believe in eternal security is because it is firmly fixed in the bible and provides balance to the passages that folks often cite as a case for losing one's salvation. I am even thankful for those that teach one can lose salvation, why, because it at least has one going to God's woodshed. Amen...

That is OSAS. One who is eternally secure, is one who trusted Christ for salvation. One who is OSAS, is one who trusted Christ for salvation. Same thing.

[B. W.]

B. W. Wrote:
The once saved always saved doctrine (OSAS) is based upon easy fairy tale believism that has a tendency to make lazy bridesmaids and false believers who abuse grace and mix worldly ideas into their Christianity such things as Chrislam, diversity at the exclusion of identity, and political correctness to rule the church and not the word of God. It makes sanctification an separate option from salvation not part of the same coin. It uses the shotgun effect - have as many people pray a simple prayer in hopes a few get on board, then leave them all to just flounder about while priding oneself on the number of conversions.

With all due respect B. W., I think you've misrepresented osas here. You've made the same mistake that the lordship salvation crowd has made. OSAS is simply the belief that once one trusts in Christ for salvation, one is saved. Period.
Are there people who are saved, hold to OSAS, and think they can live however they want? I'm sure there are some like that. But it's not the doctrine of OSAS that gets them to not live by the spirit and grow in Christ. It's simply their own sin of thinking they can do whatever they want.
And as far as salvation and sanctification being separate, they are as separate as being a believer and a disciple are separate. Maybe think of it this way, salvation is by God's grace through faith in/trusting Christ. Sanctification is by the power of the Holy Spirit, through continued faith/trusting Christ.

OSAS is nothing more than eternal security in God, by God.

Why I believe in eternal security is because it is firmly fixed in the bible and provides balance to the passages that folks often cite as a case for losing one's salvation. I am even thankful for those that teach one can lose salvation, why, because it at least has one going to God's woodshed. Amen...

That is OSAS. One who is eternally secure, is one who trusted Christ for salvation. One who is OSAS, is one who trusted Christ for salvation. Same thing.

I haven't misrepresented osas here but pointed out a fact that it often leads to abuse of grace and much mixing other things into the modern Church.

Like anything that begins, human beings eventually corrupt a good thing. That has happened to OSAS. It once meant eternal security as I attempted to define eternal security but now appears to mean something else entirely. It is also used as a pretext to fuel the Arminian and Calvinist discord between brethren too. The term OSAS has become tainted as well as has the Lordship item you mentioned. Jesus is Lord and there is eternal security - two well established truths, yet, we human beings mess these up so much that often these need to be redefined and meanings clarified.

I learned to read the book of Hebrews with a Jewish historical perspective. Chapter 4 comes after the first 3 chapters which deal with the High Priest and animal sacrificial system of the Old Mosaic Covenant. It speaks of not going back to the OT animal sacrifice for sin and involves stern motivation not to do so - those that do well - insult the blood of the New Covenant. It has nothing to do with the Arminian and Calvinist doctrines on this matter at all and should not be read out of context to support either side. In fact the last chapter in Hebrews speaks of eternal security in...well read it for yourself:

Heb 13:5-6, Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6 so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"

Heb 13:7-9, Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited. NKJV

In verse 9 the writer warns of what - not to be carried away by varied and strange teachings -- and by such is how folks fall away into the old animal sacrificial system as well as a bunch of other weirdness. Were they ever really saved? I think not due to the power of the Holy Spirit to guide, teach, and convict those saved and sealed by the gift of grace. It appears from the text that such that fall away are seeking to deliberately game the system of God's grace - exploit it and add the blood of animals to Christ sacrifice for power/control issues and financial gain.

Next, now notice in verse five there is a promise spoken by God in Deut 31:8, Joshua 1:5, 1 Sam 12:22 and verified in Psalms 37:28, Isaiah 41:17... how God says "... I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU."

There are Judas Iscariot's in the congregations and false brethren and deceivers and those who would love to make money selling animals at the temple again... To be a deceiver, a Judas, or a false brethren implies partaking in the new Covenant as a means to gain unholy wealth, fame, power/control, exploitation...not to have Christ as savior-Lord over one's life.

Sadly OSAS has fallen prey to the Arminian and Calvinist discord and tainted as well as miss applied by a few folks as I mentioned prior.
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[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
I haven't misrepresented osas here but pointed out a fact that it often leads to abuse of grace and much mixing other things into the modern Church.

You said, "The once saved always saved doctrine (OSAS) is based upon easy fairy tale believism...". That's why I said you misrepresented OSAS. That's what the Lordship Salvation says when they misrepresent OSAS. OSAS is NOT based on easy believism. It is based on the scriptural teaching of eternal security.

OSAS is the biblical doctrine that says once a believer has trusted Christ for salvation, that believer is assured of salvation. So, I don't think a biblical doctrine can lead to abuse of grace. Maybe the misunderstanding of a biblical doctrine can lead to error. For example, the doctrine of OSAS won't lead to abuse of grace, just like belief in the Trinity won't lead to believing in three gods. Misunderstanding the Trinity may lead to believing in three gods.

The abuse of grace has been around for quite a while. It's not something new.
Romans6:1
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Romans 6:15
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Like anything that begins, human beings eventually corrupt a good thing. That has happened to OSAS. It once meant eternal security as I attempted to define eternal security but now appears to mean something else entirely.

It still means eternal security. People may have twisted or misrepresented what it means, but it's still simply eternal security.

The term OSAS has become tainted as well as has the Lordship item you mentioned. Jesus is Lord and there is eternal security - two well established truths, yet, we human beings mess these up so much that often these need to be redefined and meanings clarified.

OSAS has been misrepresented by the Lordship Salvation crowd. They claim it's synonymous with easy believism. It's not. And Lordship salvation isn't simply believing Jesus is Lord. Lordship Salvation requires one to make Christ Lord of one's life in order to gain salvation. That's a work added to God's free gift.



Again, OSAS is nothing more or less than eternal security.

[B. W.]

B. W. wrote:
I haven't misrepresented osas here but pointed out a fact that it often leads to abuse of grace and much mixing other things into the modern Church.

You said, "The once saved always saved doctrine (OSAS) is based upon easy fairy tale believism...". That's why I said you misrepresented OSAS. That's what the Lordship Salvation says when they misrepresent OSAS. OSAS is NOT based on easy believism. It is based on the scriptural teaching of eternal security.

OSAS is the biblical doctrine that says once a believer has trusted Christ for salvation, that believer is assured of salvation. So, I don't think a biblical doctrine can lead to abuse of grace. Maybe the misunderstanding of a biblical doctrine can lead to error. For example, the doctrine of OSAS won't lead to abuse of grace, just like belief in the Trinity won't lead to believing in three gods. Misunderstanding the Trinity may lead to believing in three gods.

The abuse of grace has been around for quite a while. It's not something new.
Romans6:1
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Romans 6:15
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Like anything that begins, human beings eventually corrupt a good thing. That has happened to OSAS. It once meant eternal security as I attempted to define eternal security but now appears to mean something else entirely.

It still means eternal security. People may have twisted or misrepresented what it means, but it's still simply eternal security.

The term OSAS has become tainted as well as has the Lordship item you mentioned. Jesus is Lord and there is eternal security - two well established truths, yet, we human beings mess these up so much that often these need to be redefined and meanings clarified.

OSAS has been misrepresented by the Lordship Salvation crowd. They claim it's synonymous with easy believism. It's not. And Lordship salvation isn't simply believing Jesus is Lord. Lordship Salvation requires one to make Christ Lord of one's life in order to gain salvation. That's a work added to God's free gift.

Again, OSAS is nothing more or less than eternal security.

Rick you just made my point (if you didn't know it) concerning how the Arminian and Calvinist debate has tainted OSAS so much so that one cannot actually discuss it without a fist fight. Just re-read what you wrote...

I will simply stand on the term eternal security of the believer that is written in the bible until that becomes tainted like OSAS has. Until then, blessed are the peace makers and often such retain many a black eye
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P.S. I am also reminded of the warning from Dietrich Bonhoeffer regarding how the main stream German Church fell into a corrupted state regarding the prevailing progressive idea concerning God's grace common in the 1930's. We should pray that this should not happen here in the USA, but I do see it on the rise here in the USA. Fallen human nature has that ability to turn what is good into something not so good all with the best intentions of course.

[Jac3510]

You do realize that Bonhoeffer was a major proponent of Lordship Salvation, which is to say, he taught a false gospel, right?

[RickD]

You do realize that Bonhoeffer was a major proponent of Lordship Salvation, which is to say, he taught a false gospel, right?

I didn't know that. But I find it somewhat ironic, considering this conversation.

[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
Rick you just made my point (if you didn't know it) concerning how the Arminian and Calvinist debate has tainted OSAS so much so that one cannot actually discuss it without a fist fight. Just re-read what you wrote...

I'm a little confused. How does Calvinism vs Arminianism have anything to do with osas? In 5 point Calvinism, it's the perseverance of the saints. That doctrine isn't true osas. And in 5 point Arminianism, one can lose salvation. So that's certainly not osas.

OSAS-once one trusts Christ for salvation, one's salvation is eternally secure. One cannot lose everlasting life. Period.

5 point calvinism's perseverance of the saints-a believer's salvation is secure because God keeps him secure. That part is basically the same as osas. Calvinism also says a believer will never fall away or deny Christ because God won't let him. Whereas true osas, taken to its logical end, leaves open the possibility that a believer can fall away, even to the point of denying Christ. But his salvation is still eternally secure. And contrary to the easy believism claim, true osas puts the onus on the believer to continue trusting in Christ for sanctification during this lifetime. So, as far as sanctification goes in true osas, it's the believer's duty to continue trusting Christ.

I will simply stand on the term eternal security of the believer that is written in the bible until that becomes tainted like OSAS has. Until then, blessed are the peace makers and often such retain many a black eye

I too stand on eternal security as written in the bible. Which is what true osas is.

Not sure if that helps. And btw, we're having this conversation, and no fists are flying.

[Gman]

No, you're right. My beautiful wife damn well better obey all my commandments I've given her. Then it'll flourish.
Actually if she just obeys my commands that she's able to, then that will show me she loves me.

I rest my case...

[B. W.]

You do realize that Bonhoeffer was a major proponent of Lordship Salvation, which is to say, he taught a false gospel, right?

From a historical perspective of the condition of the German Church 1930's can you see why he taught a form of Jesus as one's Lord and Savior that just may cost one much to make a stand for Him?

You think I am trying to defend Lordship salvation? Give me a break...

Let's see, I would be considered a 'free gracer' in the classical sense and not the modern example I will mention below...

About two years ago I went to a meeting in a Free Grace Church in Fort Collins to drop off material to the leadership for a possible speaking engagement. I was shocked by what I saw and heard taught there. It was all about grace as all greasy and Greasy Grace was the theme of the pastors message such as: You can live anyway you please - God wuv's you don't judge you... The praise and worship was a 'Grace Party" along with the oddest thing - some sort of practice called a 'Glory Line.' People ran through it while others touched the runners to pass Gods glory and grace unto those running through while in the back ground praise music flared and the leaders mocking anyone daring saying we are created for God to work through to be his hands and feet on earth.

Rick and you would have left shouting heresy! Yet, this is and still is a practice in a free grace Church that teaches OSAS as the means not to worry about it - sin and all - by grace just smoke'em if you got'em and never listen to anyone who teaches that there is such thing as eternal recompense... or that verse 10 from Eph 2:10. I remember the pastors words to this day - "its greasy grace, I can slide on in...greasy..."

Rather disgusting. That local church is growing - amazing. Needless to say, I did not get an invite or even allow to speak that night either. I left there. Well, does this represent all free grace churches or just an abuse of the doctrine of free grace? It cuts both ways Jac...please don't mock me. We both know the answer.

Hope that is not the type of free grace church Rick and Jac attend - I don't think so as you both would run out shouting Ichabod! That's is the type of OSAS groups I encounter here and elsewhere at times but thankfully they are rare and are not indicative of all free grace churches. I think of Bonhoeffer and how he confronted the greasy abuse of grace during his day and then dying for Christ Jesus, well, makes a comment like yours rather hollow.

I know that God is sovereign and by design he allows things. Just maybe he allows the Lordship Salvation Doctrine to conflict with Eternal Security in order to expose error, test and refine the heart, in order to reveal something people are missing in both camps.

1 Th 5:21, Test all things; hold fast what is good. NKJV
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[RickD]

B. W., I fail to see how that proves eternal security/OSAS is wrong. Because sinful man uses a biblical doctrine as a basis for sinning, that doesn't change the truth of the doctrine.

Weren't you the one who was saying that just because some charismatic churches go all weird with the gifts of the spirit, that doesn't take away from the truth of the real gifts?

Sinful people use biblical doctrine as a basis for sinning all the time. That doesn't make the truth any less true.

[PaulSacramento]

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.
All we can do is assume perhaps?
We assume/ believe we are saved because we put our faith in Christ and His act of love and sacrifice for Us.
That said, we are in a fallen state and giving ourselves to Christ does not negate that state, but gives us HOPE of salvation from this state.

[RickD]

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.
All we can do is assume perhaps?
We assume/ believe we are saved because we put our faith in Christ and His act of love and sacrifice for Us.
That said, we are in a fallen state and giving ourselves to Christ does not negate that state, but gives us HOPE of salvation from this state.

Of course we can know. God has told us.

1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All we can do is assume?

I'm sorry paul, but this is another one of your posts.

[Philip]

Rick makes an important point! A TRULY saved person can never lose their salvation - it's eternal and was both begun and completed by Christ - this despite how some unsaved or saved and misguided people misuse and misunderstand this doctrine.

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.

Of COURSE, one can know! IF they have truly done what Scripture teaches one MUST do to be saved, then they ARE saved. Period! And yes, God DID communicate to us through Scripture - it is living and active - so I'd also call that also speaking to us directly. IF one could not know whether or not they are saved, then we could have NO confidence of that, and we would be forced to live in fear and constantly at the mercy of our feelings of how our "supposed" salvation feels - or doesn't feel - at any given moment. Can we know for certain whether another is saved or not - I'd say no - because we can't see their hearts and minds. We can only look at their fruit and discern probabilities based upon that. But we could be wrong. But we know our OWN hearts and minds and the truth of whether we have truly believed and committed our lives into His hands, placed our trust in Him.

[Philip]

That clown is fast on the draw!