Which one is right

[PaulSacramento]

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.
All we can do is assume perhaps?
We assume/ believe we are saved because we put our faith in Christ and His act of love and sacrifice for Us.
That said, we are in a fallen state and giving ourselves to Christ does not negate that state, but gives us HOPE of salvation from this state.

Of course we can know. God has told us.

1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All we can do is assume?

I'm sorry paul, but this is another one of your posts.

How many people "KNEW" they were saved because, according to them, they were "devote Christians", BUT...they "fell away"?
Don't know any?
I do.

[PaulSacramento]

Rick makes an important point! A TRULY saved person can never lose their salvation - it's eternal and was both begun and completed by Christ - this despite how some unsaved or saved and misguided people misuse and misunderstand this doctrine.

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.

Of COURSE, one can know! IF they have truly done what Scripture teaches one MUST do to be saved, then they ARE saved. Period! And yes, God DID communicate to us through Scripture - it is living and active - so I'd also call that also speaking to us directly. IF one could not know whether or not they are saved, then we could have NO confidence of that, and we would be forced to live in fear and constantly at the mercy of our feelings of how our "supposed" salvation feels - or doesn't feel - at any given moment. Can we know for certain whether another is saved or not - I'd say no - because we can't see their hearts and minds. We can only look at their fruit and discern probabilities based upon that. But we could be wrong. But we know our OWN hearts and minds and the truth of whether we have truly believed and committed our lives into His hands, placed our trust in Him.

OH, so as long as we DO what we MUST to be saved, we ARE saved, eh?

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
How many people "KNEW" they were saved because, according to them, they were "devote Christians", BUT...they "fell away"?

I'm not sure I see the issue with this. As long as being a devote Christian included trusting Christ for salvation, then they have everlasting life.

Fall away? You'd have to define "fell away". It's simple Paul. If one believes in/trusts Christ, one has everlasting life. It couldn't get any simpler.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
How many people "KNEW" they were saved because, according to them, they were "devote Christians", BUT...they "fell away"?

I'm not sure I see the issue with this. As long as being a devote Christian included trusting Christ for salvation, then they have everlasting life.

Fall away? You'd have to define "fell away". It's simple Paul. If one believes in/trusts Christ, one has everlasting life. It couldn't get any simpler.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

So what happens when we "lose" belief?

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
How many people "KNEW" they were saved because, according to them, they were "devote Christians", BUT...they "fell away"?

I'm not sure I see the issue with this. As long as being a devote Christian included trusting Christ for salvation, then they have everlasting life.

Fall away? You'd have to define "fell away". It's simple Paul. If one believes in/trusts Christ, one has everlasting life. It couldn't get any simpler.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

So what happens when we "lose" belief?

As far as salvation, nothing. God keeps a believer's salvation secure. Of course you're free to believe otherwise if you want. You don't have to believe in assurance of salvation, to have assurance of salvation.

[1over137]

What about this?
Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to [c]maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

[PaulSacramento]

What about this?
Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to [c]maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

That is a very relevant passage because here, the writer of Hebrews, makes the clear statement that those that HAD "once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" and then they " have fallen away", to which he replies that the following is the case:
it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

He seems to be stating that it is possible for those that have even partaking of the HS and tasted the word of God, to fall away.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
How many people "KNEW" they were saved because, according to them, they were "devote Christians", BUT...they "fell away"?

I'm not sure I see the issue with this. As long as being a devote Christian included trusting Christ for salvation, then they have everlasting life.

Fall away? You'd have to define "fell away". It's simple Paul. If one believes in/trusts Christ, one has everlasting life. It couldn't get any simpler.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

So what happens when we "lose" belief?

As far as salvation, nothing. God keeps a believer's salvation secure. Of course you're free to believe otherwise if you want. You don't have to believe in assurance of salvation, to have assurance of salvation.

Oh I believe that God KNOWS who is saved, far more than we do, and that ONLY God knows for sure.
I myself have HOPE that I am saved my my belief in Christ and my giving of myself to Our Lord and Saviour.
Do I know for sure?
No, I don't.

[Philip]

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.

Philip wrote: Of COURSE, one can know! IF they have truly done what Scripture teaches one MUST do to be saved, then they ARE saved. Period! And yes, God DID communicate to us through Scripture - it is living and active - so I'd also call that also speaking to us directly. IF one could not know whether or not they are saved, then we could have NO confidence of that, and we would be forced to live in fear and constantly at the mercy of our feelings of how our "supposed" salvation feels - or doesn't feel - at any given moment. Can we know for certain whether another is saved or not - I'd say no - because we can't see their hearts and minds. We can only look at their fruit and discern probabilities based upon that. But we could be wrong. But we know our OWN hearts and minds and the truth of whether we have truly believed and committed our lives into His hands, placed our trust in Him.

Paul Wrote: OH, so as long as we DO what we MUST to be saved, we ARE saved, eh?

Yes!

Romans 10:9 "because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

So, Scripture tells us if we "DO" the above, we will be saved. But one cannot truly DO the above unless he truly believes what this verse tells us we must - AND the verbal confession must match what is truly in the heart.

Similarly: "“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)

So, YES, what we DO is important to our salvation (as is the absence of doing so) - but this is not a "work" or in any way earning it. It is a mere acceptance of what has been provided, paid for, and offered us. And so Scripture teaches if we have sincerely confessed, BELIEVED and committed ourselves to Jesus, we ARE saved. Of course, as we could have done none of this without the Lord FIRST making it possible, so it is FIRST what the Lord did, but also we DO what He has said we must do to RECEIVE what HE has done.

[Jac3510]

From a historical perspective of the condition of the German Church 1930's can you see why he taught a form of Jesus as one's Lord and Savior that just may cost one much to make a stand for Him?

There is no historical context that validates heresy.

You think I am trying to defend Lordship salvation? Give me a break...

No. I think you cited a Lordship Salvationist in defense of your position, which is a terrible approach when you are trying ensure that people understand that you are not a proponent of Lordship Salvation.

The anecdote you offered about the church isn't relevant to the discussion. I, frankly, have doubts that they said what you are saying they said. But even if they were, that doesn't validate either Lordship Salvation or your appeal to Bonhoeffer or invalidate anything Rick or I or anyone has said relative to OSAS/eternal security. It's just a red herring.

[RickD]

What about this?
Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to [c]maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hana,

I think I remember awhile back you asked Jac about this passage. So if you don't mind, I'll just post the link to Jac's blog:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/?s=Hebr ... mit=Search

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
Oh I believe that God KNOWS who is saved, far more than we do, and that ONLY God knows for sure.
I myself have HOPE that I am saved my my belief in Christ and my giving of myself to Our Lord and Saviour.
Do I know for sure?
No, I don't.

Paul, if you don't know for sure if you have eternal life, don't you believe what the bible says? You can know you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

[Bigburger]

God decides who is saved and who is not, correct?
Then no one knows if they are saved unless God has spoken to them DIRECTLY and said as much.

Philip wrote: Of COURSE, one can know! IF they have truly done what Scripture teaches one MUST do to be saved, then they ARE saved. Period! And yes, God DID communicate to us through Scripture - it is living and active - so I'd also call that also speaking to us directly. IF one could not know whether or not they are saved, then we could have NO confidence of that, and we would be forced to live in fear and constantly at the mercy of our feelings of how our "supposed" salvation feels - or doesn't feel - at any given moment. Can we know for certain whether another is saved or not - I'd say no - because we can't see their hearts and minds. We can only look at their fruit and discern probabilities based upon that. But we could be wrong. But we know our OWN hearts and minds and the truth of whether we have truly believed and committed our lives into His hands, placed our trust in Him.

Paul Wrote: OH, so as long as we DO what we MUST to be saved, we ARE saved, eh?

Yes!

Romans 10:9 "because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

So, Scripture tells us if we "DO" the above, we will be saved. But one cannot truly DO the above unless he truly believes what this verse tells us we must - AND the verbal confession must match what is truly in the heart.

Similarly: "“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)

So, YES, what we DO is important to our salvation (as is the absence of doing so) - but this is not a "work" or in any way earning it. It is a mere acceptance of what has been provided, paid for, and offered us. And so Scripture teaches if we have sincerely confessed, BELIEVED and committed ourselves to Jesus, we ARE saved. Of course, as we could have done none of this without the Lord FIRST making it possible, so it is FIRST what the Lord did, but also we DO what He has said we must do to RECEIVE what HE has done.

But what if one truly does believe that Jesus is god and the only way, and then lets say something disproves something about the bible even tho its not real and then he feels dumb about it and no longer believes Jesus or the bible is real

[neo-x]

I agree with Paul on this... Everybody thinks they are saved, until they lose faith.

This little bit is very nonsensical to me... If I start to hate god and lose my faith, am I still saved because honestly I did put my trust in Christ once? And I am still saved if I don't want to be with god? What if its me sincere wish that I be left alone, I don't want to be with god or in heaven. I truly have no interest, then am i still saved? Why can't god respect my fair wish even when it was he who gave me the capacity to wish.

The fact is there are people out there who did believe in Christ and now don't. If it ever came to me, I can honestly say yup I did believe in Christ once.

Some osas proponents put it like this, if you disbelieve you never had faith... Or in other words true faith never falls away.

While I lean towards osas, some of it is completely illogical. And I don't pretend i know the answers.

This isn't about salvation though, lets agree that even when a person loses faith they still can have salvation. My principal contention is that one cannot say that those who fall away never had true faith to begin with. I have seen this being defended here before and I think it's the wrong idea.

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
This little bit is very nonsensical to me... If I start to hate god and lose my faith, am I still saved because honestly I did put my trust in Christ once? And I am still saved if I don't want to be with god? What if its me sincere wish that I be left alone, I don't want to be with god or in heaven. I truly have no interest, then am i still saved? Why can't god respect my fair wish even when it was he who gave me the capacity to wish.

What does the bible say?

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

It clearly says that if one believes in/trusts Christ, one has eternal life. So, if you are correct, and say I trust Christ, and have eternal life, then I stop trusting Christ, and lose salvation, then I never had eternal life to begin with.

Neo,
God promises us eternal, not temporary life, the moment we trust Christ. Frankly, I don't see how you can miss it. One trusts Christ, and becomes a new creature. God keeps a believer secure. We can't stop sinning to gain salvation. We can't sin our way out of salvation.

God gives us the gift of eternal life the moment we trust Christ. If we can lose it through sin, it was never eternal, and God is a liar.