Which one is right

[PaulSacramento]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

[RickD]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

I would say teaching anything other than saved by grace, through faith in Christ, for salvation, is heresy.

[neo-x]

Neo,

Do you think it's a sin to hate God?

If you answer my post, then we will touch this for sure. As you do represent OSAS, please address the problem I highlighted.

[PaulSacramento]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

I would say teaching anything other than saved by grace, through faith in Christ, for salvation, is heresy.

Not speaking strictly about salvation.
I am asking that, since the only thing needed for salvation is belief in Christ and His sacrifice and resurrection, then does any other doctrine matter at all?
Trinity? Baptism? I mean even lordship salvation ( since we are on that subject), does it matter HOW one believes ( and what the belief may require of them) as long as they DO believe?

[RickD]

Neo,

Do you think it's a sin to hate God?

If you answer my post, then we will touch this for sure. As you do represent OSAS, please address the problem I highlighted.

Neo,
Could you point me to specifically what you want addressed?

Thanks

[RickD]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

I would say teaching anything other than saved by grace, through faith in Christ, for salvation, is heresy.

Not speaking strictly about salvation.
I am asking that, since the only thing needed for salvation is belief in Christ and His sacrifice and resurrection, then does any other doctrine matter at all?
Trinity? Baptism? I mean even lordship salvation ( since we are on that subject), does it matter HOW one believes ( and what the belief may require of them) as long as they DO believe?

I'll answer your question with a question. Does it matter how a believer lives, and grows as a believer?

[jlay]

I think a lot of the confusion comes due to the elements involved in soteriology.

What is faith, and what role does it play? Faith plays no role in atonement, or as a work (Rom 4:5).
The power to save is in the Gospel, (Rom. 1:16) and not in faith itself. It is the object of faith, which is Jesus Chris and his message. (John 5:24)

Most doubts, I find, are emotional. Our thoughts and behaviors don't always correspond to what we think they ought be if we are saved. In this case, the doubt is in our behavior, and not in who Christ was and what He did. This doubt if left to linger can further grow to cause us to question the facts of what and who we were trusting in the first place. That Jesus was the son of God, was sinless, performed miracles, died and rose again. Perhaps it is better said that we are entrusting our life to Christ. We are placing our hope in his life, death, and resurrection. Faith is not simply consent to the facts, but is correlating our need (in sin) to the message of Christ. This has helped me more with doubt than anything else. I understand that I am going to emotionally struggle and not "feel" saved at times. It is so refreshing and encouraging to KNOW that my feelings and behaviors are not leading the train.

imagine if LS were true. Don't u think christian living would look different? After all, if works are the 'natural' fruit of salvation. As if God flipped some metaphysical light switch and people instantly became virtuous and everyone came to the same theological conclusions. But that is not what we see at all. IF that were the case, then the NT would be a pamphlet. Instead we see carnality and theological disputes addressed to believers and the church.

Keep in mind that i am a huge proponent of believers fulfilling their ministerial callings. I despise lethargy in the church. But I think folks like JM actually perpetuate the problem. Walking in our good works is an organic process. It isn't contrived, which is all you will get from LS. When we completely submit our minds (this is faith) to the notion that God is NOT negotiating salvation with us, then we began to experience the abundant life. I've seen the doors of ministry fly open as a result. I've seen divine providence, and the actual affirmation of the Holy Spirit in walking these things out.

Consider my own testimony. I have been blessed to preach the Gospel in local ministry outreach for nine years.

I've taught the bible to at-risk elementary age kids as well as young teens every week. Financially, I receive nothing. In fact I donate generously to the ministry I serve in. In that time I've been part of reaching thousands. What role does any of that play in the security of my salvation? Nothing. I'm saved because I trusted Christ's message and work. Let's say I quit doing what I do tomorrow. Would I be less saved then? Either my trust is in Christ or it is in the activity that I'm doing. It took me about 15 + years as a believer to finally discover and respond to what He created me for. Much of that time I spent as a LS proponent. I was a self-righteous legalist. I conflated the terms believer and disciple and was confident I was one. Why? Because i went to church and read the Bible more than some other 'nominal' Christians who were faking it till they were making it. Just like James I can show you my faith by works. In other words, yes, I can example a living faith as opposed to a dead one I had for nearly 15 years. But those works didn't and cannot save me. They don't 'prove' I'm saved. They are evidence of the promised abundant life. And it is a shame when believers miss out on this, and they do. Maybe you are a LS who is missing out. Maybe you have settled for something less because you are still negotiating with God. Will you surrender? Will you place your confidence in Him that He has saved you, He will keep and He will present you perfect? Or, are you going to trust in your own will power, intentions, efforts, etc.?

If you advocate LS, fine, but please put up your resume here, so we can all inspect your fruit and see if you are a 'genuine' follower of Christ. Put up or shut up.

[neo-x]

Neo,

Do you think it's a sin to hate God?

If you answer my post, then we will touch this for sure. As you do represent OSAS, please address the problem I highlighted.

Neo,
Could you point me to specifically what you want addressed?

Thanks

Really you didn't see any question in there? I think you can read my post again for that let me quote it again:

" But my point is the same you feel, what if I don't want salvation anymore, what if I really have to come to hate God where once I loved him, even if from God's pov I am saved, I really don't care. I don't wanna be saved, do I have a say in the matter or am I still saved, dragged to heaven while I scream I hate you God? Does not my wish matter or does God rejoice in a dictatorship. The whole concept of being one with God is rendered in love. If I have no love, then the love of God should be able to understand that. You can't marry a girl who doesn't love you and then say you love her when you really don't care what she wants. That is what in my view is the total opposite of how I come to understand God and from here OSAS doesn't make sense to me."

You questioned me "is hating God a sin"...and I thought it was not a good question, if I ever believed in Christ then it doesn't matter if hating God is a sin, I am still saved even under that, and that does not change anything. So why would you ask that is beyond me, that is why I asked you to address my post. So here it is above, again.

[neo-x]

I think a lot of the confusion comes due to the elements involved in soteriology.

What is faith, and what role does it play? Faith plays no role in atonement, or as a work (Rom 4:5).
The power to save is in the Gospel, (Rom. 1:16) and not in faith itself. It is the object of faith, which is Jesus Chris and his message. (John 5:24)

Most doubts, I find, are emotional. Our thoughts and behaviors don't always correspond to what we think they ought be if we are saved. In this case, the doubt is in our behavior, and not in who Christ was and what He did. This doubt if left to linger can further grow to cause us to question the facts of what and who we were trusting in the first place. That Jesus was the son of God, was sinless, performed miracles, died and rose again. Perhaps it is better said that we are entrusting our life to Christ. We are placing our hope in his life, death, and resurrection. Faith is not simply consent to the facts, but is correlating our need (in sin) to the message of Christ. This has helped me more with doubt than anything else. I understand that I am going to emotionally struggle and not "feel" saved at times. It is so refreshing and encouraging to KNOW that my feelings and behaviors are not leading the train.

imagine if LS were true. Don't u think christian living would look different? After all, if works are the 'natural' fruit of salvation. As if God flipped some metaphysical light switch and people instantly became virtuous and everyone came to the same theological conclusions. But that is not what we see at all. IF that were the case, then the NT would be a pamphlet. Instead we see carnality and theological disputes addressed to believers and the church.

Keep in mind that i am a huge proponent of believers fulfilling their ministerial callings. I despise lethargy in the church. But I think folks like JM actually perpetuate the problem. Walking in our good works is an organic process. It isn't contrived, which is all you will get from LS. When we completely submit our minds (this is faith) to the notion that God is NOT negotiating salvation with us, then we began to experience the abundant life. I've seen the doors of ministry fly open as a result. I've seen divine providence, and the actual affirmation of the Holy Spirit in walking these things out.

Consider my own testimony. I have been blessed to preach the Gospel in local ministry outreach for nine years. I've taught the bible to at-risk elementary age kids as well as young teens every week. Financially, I receive nothing. In fact I donate generously to the ministry I serve in. In that time I've been part of reaching thousands. What role does any of that play in the security of my salvation? Nothing. I'm saved because I trusted Christ's message and work. Let's say I quit doing what I do tomorrow. Would I be less saved then? Either my trust is in Christ or it is in the activity that I'm doing. It took me about 15 + years as a believer to finally discover and respond to what He created me for. Much of that time I spent as a LS proponent. I was a self-righteous legalist. I conflated the terms believer and disciple and was confident I was one. Why? Because i went to church and read the Bible more than some other 'nominal' Christians who were faking it till they were making it. Just like James I can show you my faith by works. In other words, yes, I can example a living faith as opposed to a dead one I had for nearly 15 years. But those works didn't and cannot save me. They don't 'prove' I'm saved. They are evidence of the promised abundant life. And it is a shame when believers miss out on this, and they do. Maybe you are a LS who is missing out. Maybe you have settled for something less because you are still negotiating with God. Will you surrender? Will you place your confidence in Him that He has saved you, He will keep and He will present you perfect? Or, are you going to trust in your own will power, intentions, efforts, etc.?

If you advocate LS, fine, but please put up your resume here, so we can all inspect your fruit and see if you are a 'genuine' follower of Christ. Put up or shut up.

J, I agree with you...lets assume LS is false, that however doesn't make the problems within OSAS go away. OSAS has to stand on it own.

[RickD]

Neo,

Do you think it's a sin to hate God?

If you answer my post, then we will touch this for sure. As you do represent OSAS, please address the problem I highlighted.

Neo,
Could you point me to specifically what you want addressed?

Thanks

Really you didn't see any question in there? I think you can read my post again for that let me quote it again:

" But my point is the same you feel, what if I don't want salvation anymore, what if I really have to come to hate God where once I loved him, even if from God's pov I am saved, I really don't care. I don't wanna be saved, do I have a say in the matter or am I still saved, dragged to heaven while I scream I hate you God? Does not my wish matter or does God rejoice in a dictatorship. The whole concept of being one with God is rendered in love. If I have no love, then the love of God should be able to understand that. You can't marry a girl who doesn't love you and then say you love her when you really don't care what she wants. That is what in my view is the total opposite of how I come to understand God and from here OSAS doesn't make sense to me."

You questioned me "is hating God a sin"...and I thought it was not a good question, if I ever believed in Christ then it doesn't matter if hating God is a sin, I am still saved even under that, and that does not change anything. So why would you ask that is beyond me, that is why I asked you to address my post. So here it is above, again.

Lol, I was looking at the wrong post, that's why I didn't see it. Sorry.

First let me explain why I asked you that. I asked if hating God is a sin, just to make the point that if a believer gets to the point of even hating God, as bad of a sin as that sounds, he is still saved. Why? Because one is saved by trusting Christ, not by one's stopping sinning.

To address your post, it's simply an emotional argument as jlay stated. Once we are born again, we are sealed for redemption. Even if and when we sin, God has placed His seal upon us. We are saved because of Him. Even if we commit the sin of unbelief at some point, salvation is still secure in Him. Salvation is not about our performance.


Not sure if that answers your question.

[RickD]

I think a lot of the confusion comes due to the elements involved in soteriology.

What is faith, and what role does it play? Faith plays no role in atonement, or as a work (Rom 4:5).
The power to save is in the Gospel, (Rom. 1:16) and not in faith itself. It is the object of faith, which is Jesus Chris and his message. (John 5:24)

Most doubts, I find, are emotional. Our thoughts and behaviors don't always correspond to what we think they ought be if we are saved. In this case, the doubt is in our behavior, and not in who Christ was and what He did. This doubt if left to linger can further grow to cause us to question the facts of what and who we were trusting in the first place. That Jesus was the son of God, was sinless, performed miracles, died and rose again. Perhaps it is better said that we are entrusting our life to Christ. We are placing our hope in his life, death, and resurrection. Faith is not simply consent to the facts, but is correlating our need (in sin) to the message of Christ. This has helped me more with doubt than anything else. I understand that I am going to emotionally struggle and not "feel" saved at times. It is so refreshing and encouraging to KNOW that my feelings and behaviors are not leading the train.

imagine if LS were true. Don't u think christian living would look different? After all, if works are the 'natural' fruit of salvation. As if God flipped some metaphysical light switch and people instantly became virtuous and everyone came to the same theological conclusions. But that is not what we see at all. IF that were the case, then the NT would be a pamphlet. Instead we see carnality and theological disputes addressed to believers and the church.

Keep in mind that i am a huge proponent of believers fulfilling their ministerial callings. I despise lethargy in the church. But I think folks like JM actually perpetuate the problem. Walking in our good works is an organic process. It isn't contrived, which is all you will get from LS. When we completely submit our minds (this is faith) to the notion that God is NOT negotiating salvation with us, then we began to experience the abundant life. I've seen the doors of ministry fly open as a result. I've seen divine providence, and the actual affirmation of the Holy Spirit in walking these things out.

Consider my own testimony. I have been blessed to preach the Gospel in local ministry outreach for nine years.

I've taught the bible to at-risk elementary age kids as well as young teens every week. Financially, I receive nothing. In fact I donate generously to the ministry I serve in. In that time I've been part of reaching thousands. What role does any of that play in the security of my salvation? Nothing. I'm saved because I trusted Christ's message and work. Let's say I quit doing what I do tomorrow. Would I be less saved then? Either my trust is in Christ or it is in the activity that I'm doing. It took me about 15 + years as a believer to finally discover and respond to what He created me for. Much of that time I spent as a LS proponent. I was a self-righteous legalist. I conflated the terms believer and disciple and was confident I was one. Why? Because i went to church and read the Bible more than some other 'nominal' Christians who were faking it till they were making it. Just like James I can show you my faith by works. In other words, yes, I can example a living faith as opposed to a dead one I had for nearly 15 years. But those works didn't and cannot save me. They don't 'prove' I'm saved. They are evidence of the promised abundant life. And it is a shame when believers miss out on this, and they do. Maybe you are a LS who is missing out. Maybe you have settled for something less because you are still negotiating with God. Will you surrender? Will you place your confidence in Him that He has saved you, He will keep and He will present you perfect? Or, are you going to trust in your own will power, intentions, efforts, etc.?

If you advocate LS, fine, but please put up your resume here, so we can all inspect your fruit and see if you are a 'genuine' follower of Christ. Put up or shut up.

Jlay,

Are you the tall, strikingly handsome man in the back row in the picture?

[neo-x]

Neo,

Do you think it's a sin to hate God?

If you answer my post, then we will touch this for sure. As you do represent OSAS, please address the problem I highlighted.

Neo,
Could you point me to specifically what you want addressed?

Thanks

Really you didn't see any question in there? I think you can read my post again for that let me quote it again:

" But my point is the same you feel, what if I don't want salvation anymore, what if I really have to come to hate God where once I loved him, even if from God's pov I am saved, I really don't care. I don't wanna be saved, do I have a say in the matter or am I still saved, dragged to heaven while I scream I hate you God? Does not my wish matter or does God rejoice in a dictatorship. The whole concept of being one with God is rendered in love. If I have no love, then the love of God should be able to understand that. You can't marry a girl who doesn't love you and then say you love her when you really don't care what she wants. That is what in my view is the total opposite of how I come to understand God and from here OSAS doesn't make sense to me."

You questioned me "is hating God a sin"...and I thought it was not a good question, if I ever believed in Christ then it doesn't matter if hating God is a sin, I am still saved even under that, and that does not change anything. So why would you ask that is beyond me, that is why I asked you to address my post. So here it is above, again.

Lol, I was looking at the wrong post, that's why I didn't see it. Sorry.

First let me explain why I asked you that. I asked if hating God is a sin, just to make the point that if a believer gets to the point of even hating God, as bad of a sin as that sounds, he is still saved. Why? Because one is saved by trusting Christ, not by one's stopping sinning.

To address your post, it's simply an emotional argument as jlay stated. Once we are born again, we are sealed for redemption. Even if and when we sin, God has placed His seal upon us. We are saved because of Him. Even if we commit the sin of unbelief at some point, salvation is still secure in Him. Salvation is not about our performance.


Not sure if that answers your question.

Its not the emotional argument at all. Read it again, I am not concerned by God's pov, I don't want to be with him, is it still then love that he forces me to stay with him? when I clearly can't stand the sight of him. How is it grace, that I am really am tormented in my soul but God still carry me with him.

[RickD]

neo wrote:
Its not the emotional argument at all. Read it again, I am not concerned by God's pov, I don't want to be with him, is it still then love that he forces me to stay with him? when I clearly can't stand the sight of him. How is it grace, that I am really am tormented in my soul but God still carry me with him.

It's grace, because dispite your sin, God will never let you go. No matter what, your sin is never stronger than God's grace, and His promises are not conditional. He promised that if we believe in Christ, we have eternal life. That's an unconditional promise.

[PaulSacramento]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

I would say teaching anything other than saved by grace, through faith in Christ, for salvation, is heresy.

Not speaking strictly about salvation.
I am asking that, since the only thing needed for salvation is belief in Christ and His sacrifice and resurrection, then does any other doctrine matter at all?
Trinity? Baptism? I mean even lordship salvation ( since we are on that subject), does it matter HOW one believes ( and what the belief may require of them) as long as they DO believe?

I'll answer your question with a question. Does it matter how a believer lives, and grows as a believer?

I believe so, yes.

[jlay]

OSAS, necessarily entails that if you ST right now, a Christian, drop a thermo-nuclear bomb on a population of millions (reason is irrelevant) you are still saved. That is just the logical conclusion of OSAS. If you happen to turn gay you are still saved. There can be "punishments" by god and you may be disciplined but in essence you are still saved. I recall an old convo with Jilay here in which he did agree that even the enola gay pilots were saved, if they ever believed, dropping a nuke cannot take our salvation away from us.

I agree with the internal reasoning on this to some extent. It does make sense according to scripture as far as sins are concerned. Grace in my view is too radical to be easily believed. But my point is the same you feel, what if I don't want salvation anymore, what if I really have to come to hate God where once I loved him, even if from God's pov I am saved, I really don't care. I don't wanna be saved, do I have a say in the matter or am I still saved, dragged to heaven while I scream I hate you God? Does not my wish matter or does God rejoice in a dictatorship. The whole concept of being one with God is rendered in love. If I have no love, then the love of God should be able to understand that. You can't marry a girl who doesn't love you and then say you love her when you really don't care what she wants. That is what in my view is the total opposite of how I come to understand God and from here OSAS doesn't make sense to me.

Neo,
I'm assuming this is the objection to OSAS you are positing. If not, please clarify. First, Jac might not make a distinction in carnality and apostacy. I do.
I treat the situation of someone outright denying God and Christ differently than a professed believer who is battling doubt, sin, or not living their faith.
God knows who are truly His. If someone says they were a Christian and is now rejecting any notion of faith , then we have good reason to ask questions. "What do you mean by Christian?" "How did you become a Christian?" "What caused you do forsake your faith?" Start digging. Not to prove them wrong, but to really understand their story. I do know that we are called to pray for those brothers and sisters who are sinning. Something we neglect all too often. If they are a vessel of the HS, then we already have an ally. So yes, I believe a true believer can be decieved, (Matt. 24:24) and still remain eternally secure.

Now, are there false converts? I'd say so. There are people who grew up in a church, and they assumed they were Christian because they were marinated in so called Christian culture since they were knee high to a grasshopper. They even prayed a prayer or walked the ilse. But that doesn't even mean they have heard and responded to the Gospel. I'd say there are plenty who grew up in religious situations and came to resent and even hate the facade of religion. And often, 'god' gets lumped in. Or, what they assume to be God.

As far as 'forcing' love. The bible says we love because He first loved us. I will state that it is impossible for you and I to love God. IMPOSSIBLE. Well, with man this is impossible. Loving God is really a matter of embracing the love He has for us. That is, basking in the grace that He is lavishly pouring on our lives through Christ. It is only when we can embrace this that we become vessels for His work. If you really want to love God, start living in the truth that you are loved.

The relationship with the believer is different. God chastens those He loves. There are times I have been in total outright rebellion to God, where you would have seen no fruit. I might have even argued with you as a skeptic. In hindsight I can see where even at the lowest lows, God was working. When a person trusts Christ, they are at that moment baptized by one spirit into one body and they are now hid in Christ. This a spiritual reality for the person. And when people reject or deny this identity I don't think it comes without costs. I don't see those costs as losing their eternal security. What they do lose is experiencing this security, and then also endure the cost of living in denial of what their inner man knows is true. How that all manifests, I'm not entirely sure, and can vary. If you had met me 20 years ago in the midst of a nervous breakdown, you'd have been hard pressed to know I was a beleiver. But I consider that breakdown one of the greatest blessings in my life.