What’s the worst that could happen?

[Jac3510]

I didn't ask if you could think of any reasons, I asked if you think it's possible that he has good reasons.

Which is exactly the correct question, Daniel.

First, it assumes that we are omniscient. When something bad happens and we argue that [God] should not have allowed it, we are assuming that we are in possession of all the facts. To illustrate, think of a trial jury. They do not render their verdict at the beginning of the trial. They do at the end, after they have heard all the evidence. If key pieces of evidences are withheld, their ability to make a correct judgment will be impaired. Yet how do we know that we are in possession of all the facts surrounding any given event? Perhaps God knows things that we do not. Perhaps He knows what would have happened had He not allowed it, and perhaps, for some reason we are unaware, what would have happened would have been be far worse. We do not know if that is or is not the case in any given situation, but the fact that we do not know means that we are not capable of rendering a judgment. If we do, we are placing ourselves on equal footing as Him, which is tantamount to a jury delivering a guilty verdict immediately after the prosecution’s opening statement.

• Ask . . .
  
  Isn’t it possible that there are reasons this was the best option for God that you don’t know about?

Emphasis added. See p. 30.

edit:

I have to go back and redo my whole site. I have some formatting issues on some of the papers, and I've finished school since then. I also need to put some of the material I've come up with over two years of CPE . . . ahh, too much to do, too much to do.

[Kenny]

Do you think that God possibly may have good reasons to do it the way he does?

No. I cannot think of any good reason why an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, & omnibenevolent God would do some of the stuff he is claimed to have done.

Ken

I didn't ask if you could think of any reasons, I asked if you think it's possible that he has good reasons.

Yes! Assuming God exist as you believe him to be, it is possible for there to be good reasons for what he did. But because I do not see these reasons I have no reason to assume wisdom is behind these actions. I do not have the faith to blindly follow something that does not make sense to me simply because it is smarter and wiser than I.

Ken

[Byblos]

Do you think that God possibly may have good reasons to do it the way he does?

No. I cannot think of any good reason why an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, & omnibenevolent God would do some of the stuff he is claimed to have done.

Ken

I didn't ask if you could think of any reasons, I asked if you think it's possible that he has good reasons.

Yes! Assuming God exist as you believe him to be, it is possible for there to be good reasons for what he did. But because I do not see these reasons I have no reason to assume wisdom is behind these actions. I do not have the faith to blindly follow something that does not make sense to me simply because it is smarter and wiser than I.

Ken

But you don't live by this philosophy, do you? You don't understand neuroscience but you'd be the first to seek a neurologist's advice when needed. You don't understand the mechanics of flight engineering but you still put your faith in the airline company and the pilots they employ to fly you around, and so on, and so on. You are a typical, misguided person who has no problem living by a standard he does not understand so long as that standard is not God.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Do you think that God possibly may have good reasons to do it the way he does?

No. I cannot think of any good reason why an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, & omnibenevolent God would do some of the stuff he is claimed to have done.

Ken

I didn't ask if you could think of any reasons, I asked if you think it's possible that he has good reasons.

Yes! Assuming God exist as you believe him to be, it is possible for there to be good reasons for what he did. But because I do not see these reasons I have no reason to assume wisdom is behind these actions. I do not have the faith to blindly follow something that does not make sense to me simply because it is smarter and wiser than I.

Ken

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

[Kenny]

Do you think that God possibly may have good reasons to do it the way he does?

No. I cannot think of any good reason why an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, & omnibenevolent God would do some of the stuff he is claimed to have done.

Ken

I didn't ask if you could think of any reasons, I asked if you think it's possible that he has good reasons.

Yes! Assuming God exist as you believe him to be, it is possible for there to be good reasons for what he did. But because I do not see these reasons I have no reason to assume wisdom is behind these actions. I do not have the faith to blindly follow something that does not make sense to me simply because it is smarter and wiser than I.

Ken

But you don't live by this philosophy, do you? You don't understand neuroscience but you'd be the first to seek a neurologist's advice when needed. You don't understand the mechanics of flight engineering but you still put your faith in the airline company and the pilots they employ to fly you around, and so on, and so on. You are a typical, misguided person who has no problem living by a standard he does not understand so long as that standard is not God.

Neurologists is a field I do not understand. Flight engineering is a field I do not understand. When it comes to that which I do not understand I will put my trust in those who do.
These claimed actions of the God of the old testament are things that I DO understand. It doesn't matter how smart you are, if you do something that does not make sense to me, I will assume you've made a mistake until it is proven to me otherwise.

Ken

[Kenny]

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Ken

Read the rest of the chapter and it explains what I am talking about.

Compared to God you are not even out of diapers yet.

[Kenny]

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Ken

Read the rest of the chapter and it explains what I am talking about.

Compared to God you are not even out of diapers yet.

My point is, to trust that your father figure who is bigger and smarter than you is going to do what is in your best interest, even when your logic and reason tells you otherwise that is what children do, their brains aren't fully formed yet. I am an adult. I don't care how smart, big or strong you are, if it appears you are doing something wrong, I will not follow you until my suspicions of you have been proven wrong.

Ken

Ken

[1over137]

Ken mentioned the Old Testament also on other thread. He was led away by some stories (and by how Bible came to be). So, he probably disliked OT and God as well. He probably reasoned it cannot be true. Now he opposes God because he also opposes what he thinks about the OT.

Just my guess.

[Danieltwotwenty]

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Ken

Read the rest of the chapter and it explains what I am talking about.

Compared to God you are not even out of diapers yet.

My point is, to trust that your father figure who is bigger and smarter than you is going to do what is in your best interest, even when your logic and reason tells you otherwise that is what children do, their brains aren't fully formed yet. I am an adult. I don't care how smart, big or strong you are, if it appears you are doing something wrong, I will not follow you until my suspicions of you have been proven wrong.

Ken

Ken

Neither is your intellect or understanding fully formed yet. If you had read the whole of that chapter you would know that is what Paul (Saul) the writer was saying but you wilfully ignore that part. You know what that is called, cherry picking, which is faulty reasoning and is fallacious.

Your understanding of the OT is faulty, I would recommend a book called "Is God A Moral Monster" it covers the supposed atrocities in the OT. Or you could pick a certain topic and make a thread about it. Only choose one topic at a time or we will get too bogged down.

[Kenny]

So as a child you never followed you parents blindly, knowing they have your best interests at heart.
You don't think your parents were wiser than you when you were as a child.
Do you think as a child (say around six years of age) you were capable of understanding the wisdom and all the actions of your parents?

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Ken

Read the rest of the chapter and it explains what I am talking about.

Compared to God you are not even out of diapers yet.

My point is, to trust that your father figure who is bigger and smarter than you is going to do what is in your best interest, even when your logic and reason tells you otherwise that is what children do, their brains aren't fully formed yet. I am an adult. I don't care how smart, big or strong you are, if it appears you are doing something wrong, I will not follow you until my suspicions of you have been proven wrong.

Ken

Ken

Neither is your intellect or understanding fully formed yet. If you had read the whole of that chapter you would know that is what Paul (Saul) the writer was saying but you wilfully ignore that part. You know what that is called, cherry picking, which is faulty reasoning and is fallacious.

Your understanding of the OT is faulty, I would recommend a book called "Is God A Moral Monster" it covers the supposed atrocities in the OT. Or you could pick a certain topic and make a thread about it. Only choose one topic at a time or we will get too bogged down.

Daniel
Neither is your intellect or understanding fully formed yet. If you had read the whole of that chapter you would know that is what Paul (Saul) the writer was saying but you wilfully ignore that part. You know what that is called, cherry picking, which is faulty reasoning and is fallacious.

Ken
My point had nothing to do with Paul, I was simply using his words to explain why I disagree with some of the actions of the God of the old testament.

Daniel
Your understanding of the OT is faulty, I would recommend a book called "Is God A Moral Monster" it covers the supposed atrocities in the OT. Or you could pick a certain topic and make a thread about it. Only choose one topic at a time or we will get too bogged down.

Ken
What is it about my understanding of the OT is faulty?

Ken

[jlay]

What is it about my understanding of the OT is faulty?

Kenny,

Cultural idioms of the ANE. Hyperbole. Context, etc.
If you are interested in hearing a thorough, well reasoned exposition on OT difficulties then get Copan's book. If not, then don't.

But even if you can't resolve the OT stuff, it doesn't change the message of Christ and whether He did what the NT claims He did. In other words, does a Christian have to be able to reconcile all the OT difficulties to trust Christ? Well, no.

[Kenny]

What is it about my understanding of the OT is faulty?

But even if you can't resolve the OT stuff, it doesn't change the message of Christ and whether He did what the NT claims He did. In other words, does a Christian have to be able to reconcile all the OT difficulties to trust Christ? Well, no.

If the foundation that Jesus stands on is the God of the Old Testament, I cannot follow Jesus while rejecting his foundation; even though I may agree with what Jesus says. To me that would be akin to voting for a politician who is an active member of the Ku Klux Klan simply because I agree with what he says on various political issues

Ken

[jlay]

If the foundation that Jesus stands on is the God of the Old Testament, I cannot follow Jesus while rejecting his foundation; even though I may agree with what Jesus says. To me that would be akin to voting for a politician who is an active member of the Ku Klux Klan simply because I agree with what he says on various political issues

Ken

So, you're not going to read the book. You could have just said so.

[RickD]

Kenny,

What they're saying is that the book explains that. I'll tell you what, I have a copy of Is God a Moral Monster. I'll even send it to you for free. Just pm me a name and address to send it to, and you can have it.