Uncaused first cause

[1over137]

And I am extremely curious, what the heck is beyond weird quantum physics. I hope God shows me then.

[B. W.]

God is indeed speaking, it is you who chooses not to hear...

Is he speaking to me in a language I am able to understand?

Yes...

Then why can't I hear him?

Ken

You refuse to listen - why?

As I explained before, I am only capable of hearing audible sounds. Audible sounds do not require listening in order to hear them. If someone is going to communicate with me in a way that requires I listen using my heart, my mind, my imagination, or anything other than my ears, they are speaking to me using a method that I am unable to understand; thus it would be foolish to try to communicate with me that way.

You are also able to to read signs and body language as well too. For example, you can read, signs in the sky that points out that a storm is near or body language from another that indicates if one is happy or sad. in fact, does reading what we, existing beings, have typed produce audible sounds, if what you stated is true, then you could not read...

Therefore, stating that you can only hear audible sounds is in error. There are many ways in which we perceive and hear what is around us. If I spoke thus: "Því svo elskaði Guð heiminn, að hann gaf son sinn eingetinn, til þess að hver sem á hann trúir glatist ekki, heldur hafi eilíft líf." How would you know what an intelligent being wrote unless you learned to read the language?

Likewise, God is speaking to you in many ways - you chose to not read due to thinking that your own language is the only one and way...

You are right, that I am able to get messages in other ways than audible sounds. My point is, if your God is speaking to me, he is using a method that I am unable to recognize. If God is everything the Bible claims he is, he knows enough about me to get the message across in a way that I can understand.

Ken

The Cross

You really want to hear the message of the cross in a way you can understand it? Well. Let’s see…

Jesus said in Matthew 25:40 a principle that will condemn or excuse a person, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

Keep these words in mind as we go and please take to time to read the verses cited in full.


Matthew 26:3-4 people assemble and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not kill one such as in character assassination, anger, bitterness, vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. All these, the cross expose this way:

Who have you sought and plotted harm too? Why are you here on this forum and what is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…


Matthew 26:14-16, 47-50 Jesus was betrayed by a friend

How many friends and folks have you betrayed and let down?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right?

Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with you words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God? Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too? Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so?


Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God? Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…


Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so…


Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law

Luke 23:1-4 a whole multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors.

Luke 23:5-7 Passing the buck to escape blame and seeking a way out

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God? Do you not teach and without proper understanding try to pit God’s bible against itself to justify your anger and disbelief in God – why should he talk openly with such that do this? Yet, he does…


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word… How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God?


Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the elites and governmental authority was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death

Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force?


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? Yet he is speaking and revealing the nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God… by the events that portray the real work of the cross uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily, those that nailed him and conspired and speak falsehoods, those how trade the bad in exchange for the good…

Why God has forsaken humanity in silence is revealed because we do the same to him, family, friends, strangers…

– are you not demanding him speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why? And you boldly assert that He speak with you on your terms with this in your heart proven by how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours – now? Yet, he is speaking, you choose not to hear or do you?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but did he really? No… He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing God’s wrath for these sins and man’s wrath as well to. He paid the death penalty for your actions. He said this…


Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? continue to cast lots?

John 3:14-17, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18-19, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20-21, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

He is speaking-speaking through the existence of the universe, in your conscience, all the time, it you who must decide to continue to refuse to hear or to finally listen – that choice is up to you…
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[Kenny]

I think that makes perfect sense; for those who know there is a God. How about those of us who do not know there is a God?

Ken

Maybe it's time for you (and others) to revisit (and visit) what led you away.

If it didn't work for me when I believed, why would it work for me now that I do not?

Ken

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Here's a list of quotes from scientists who believe(d) in God

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." (2)

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word." (3)

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming". (4)

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose". (5)

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." (6)

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory." (9)

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan." (10)

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine." (13)

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." (14)

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall… be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God." (15)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The Physics of Christianity.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."(17)

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument." (18)

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed." (20)

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life." (22)

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." (23)

Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique." (25)

Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design." (26)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science." (27)

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

So it seems you are wrong. Cosmologists, and other scientists do make that leap.

I am sure there are plenty of cosmologists who have various religious affiliations, and their beliefs may include which ever God they might worship; but I don't think their cosmology evidence will lead to what ever God they happen to worship.

K

[Kenny]

The Cross

You really want to hear the message of the cross in a way you can understand it? Well. Let’s see…

Jesus said in Matthew 25:40 a principle that will condemn or excuse a person, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

Keep these words in mind as we go and please take to time to read the verses cited in full.


Matthew 26:3-4 people assemble and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not kill one such as in character assassination, anger, bitterness, vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. All these, the cross expose this way:

Who have you sought and plotted harm too? Why are you here on this forum and what is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…


Matthew 26:14-16, 47-50 Jesus was betrayed by a friend

How many friends and folks have you betrayed and let down?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right?

Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with you words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God? Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too? Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so?


Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God? Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…


Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so…


Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law

Luke 23:1-4 a whole multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors.

Luke 23:5-7 Passing the buck to escape blame and seeking a way out

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God? Do you not teach and without proper understanding try to pit God’s bible against itself to justify your anger and disbelief in God – why should he talk openly with such that do this? Yet, he does…


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word… How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God?


Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the elites and governmental authority was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death

Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force?


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? Yet he is speaking and revealing the nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God… by the events that portray the real work of the cross uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily, those that nailed him and conspired and speak falsehoods, those how trade the bad in exchange for the good…

Why God has forsaken humanity in silence is revealed because we do the same to him, family, friends, strangers…

– are you not demanding him speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why? And you boldly assert that He speak with you on your terms with this in your heart proven by how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours – now? Yet, he is speaking, you choose not to hear or do you?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but did he really? No… He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing God’s wrath for these sins and man’s wrath as well to. He paid the death penalty for your actions. He said this…


Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? continue to cast lots?

John 3:14-17, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18-19, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20-21, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

He is speaking-speaking through the existence of the universe, in your conscience, all the time, it you who must decide to continue to refuse to hear or to finally listen – that choice is up to you…
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Whatever point you are trying to make..... I am not getting it.

Ken

[1over137]

I think that makes perfect sense; for those who know there is a God. How about those of us who do not know there is a God?

Ken

Maybe it's time for you (and others) to revisit (and visit) what led you away.

If it didn't work for me when I believed, why would it work for me now that I do not?

Ken

You may be wiser. You may have better chance to dialog about things you do not like or understand. Life could have taught you more. Etc. Look, I do not know you in the times when you were believer as you say.

[Kenny]

I think that makes perfect sense; for those who know there is a God. How about those of us who do not know there is a God?

Ken

Maybe it's time for you (and others) to revisit (and visit) what led you away.

If it didn't work for me when I believed, why would it work for me now that I do not?

Ken

You may be wiser. You may have better chance to dialog about things you do not like or understand. Life could have taught you more. Etc. Look, I do not know you in the times when you were believer as you say.

I hear what you are saying. But assuming what you say is real, why do you have to be wiser? Why must you meet such conditions in order to get the message? Why can't a person no matter how ignorant, obtuse, or niave find the correct way as long as his heart is sincere? I am sure you feel he can but I know from personal experience that it does not work for everybody; I saw it work for plenty of people around me, I was even able to personally lead people to Christ who to this day are hurt that I have fallen away. I was good at faking it, but it never worked for me.

K

[1over137]

I hear what you are saying. But assuming what you say is real, why do you have to be wiser? Why must you meet such conditions in order to get the message? Why can't a person no matter how ignorant, obtuse, or niave find the correct way as long as his heart is sincere? I am sure you feel he can but I know from personal experience that it does not work for everybody; I saw it work for plenty of people around me, I was even able to personally lead people to Christ who to this day are hurt that I have fallen away. I was good at faking it, but it never worked for me.

Why wiser? So that you weren't led away. If you were Christian once, as you claimed, then you got the message, right? So, why you allowed to be led away?
Ken, I do not know your heart. Only God knows. Only he knows whether your heart is/was sincere. When you started to doubt, have you tried to find help among older and wiser Christians? Different people have different needs. And maybe your need is to speak with wise Christians.

Wisdom comes from God.

edit: One needs to be humble too in order to be able to listen.
Proverbs 15:33 ESV
The fear of the Lord is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

[Kenny]

Why wiser? So that you weren't led away. If you were Christian once, as you claimed, then you got the message, right? So, why you allowed to be led away?

I got the message from other people. When I attempted to get the message from God I was unable to. Eventually my logical mind kicked in and it lead me astray.

Ken, I do not know your heart. Only God knows. Only he knows whether your heart is/was sincere. When you started to doubt, have you tried to find help among older and wiser Christians? Different people have different needs. And maybe your need is to speak with wise Christians.

I hear what you are saying, and I tried that. Unfortunately the people I went to for help made me feel guilty for asking the type of questions I wanted to ask. Obviously the only people I had access to were not very helpful.
It seems to me if something is real, it should not be difficult, you shouldn’t need help or guidance; anybody who desires should be able to do it. I was unable to do it, that’s one of the reasons I concluded it wasn’t real

K

[1over137]

Why wiser? So that you weren't led away. If you were Christian once, as you claimed, then you got the message, right? So, why you allowed to be led away?

I got the message from other people. When I attempted to get the message from God I was unable to. Eventually my logical mind kicked in and it lead me astray.

I doubt it was your logical mind.

Ken, I do not know your heart. Only God knows. Only he knows whether your heart is/was sincere. When you started to doubt, have you tried to find help among older and wiser Christians? Different people have different needs. And maybe your need is to speak with wise Christians.

I hear what you are saying, and I tried that. Unfortunately the people I went to for help made me feel guilty for asking the type of questions I wanted to ask. Obviously the only people I had access to were not very helpful.
It seems to me if something is real, it should not be difficult, you shouldn’t need help or guidance; anybody who desires should be able to do it. I was unable to do it, that’s one of the reasons I concluded it wasn’t real

K

You were unable because I think you were troubled by those things that led you away.
What those people told you to make you feel guilty?
And no, I think God sends people to help other people. But it seems you distrusted them and therefore ask for "voice from the sky".
Well, if you have doubts it may be difficult. It is not the question whether God is real. The question is your heart.