Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Seraph wrote:The multiverse idea is usually invoked as an alternative to a Creator, so yeah, in the scenario of a multiverse God may well not exist. If he doesn't exist, the multiverse can well be infinite and not need to be compatible with necessary characteristics of a reality where God exists.
But the point I am trying to make - is that if the universe does exist and there are an infinite universes then God must exist by nature of the ontological argument. Or am I reading that argument wrong?
I think I'd agree with that, I was mainly just saying that infinity is possible, even for things aside from God.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Well, I believe(not dogmatically) that no "Thing" can be infinite.
And seraph said
Seraph wrote:
I think I'd agree with that, I was mainly just saying that infinity is possible, even for things aside from God.
So maybe we're defining "thing" differently.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
How is God not even defined as a "thing"? That's quite the cop out to avoid needing to explain God, in my opinion. If he's an existing entity, of course he's a "thing". If he weren't a thing he wouldn't exist at all.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward
Seraph wrote:How is God not even defined as a "thing"? That's quite the cop out to avoid needing to explain God, in my opinion. If he's an existing entity, of course he's a "thing". If he weren't a thing he wouldn't exist at all.
Like I said, I think we may be using different definitions.
thing:
An inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being
That's the closest to what I mean.
In that sense, a universe is a thing.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
I don't see why infinity is a quality that can only apply to a sentient being, as opposed to a non sentient thing.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward
Seraph wrote:I don't see why infinity is a quality that can only apply to a sentient being, as opposed to a non sentient thing.
Ok. Could you give me an example of something infinite besides God? Or explain what you mean?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:
Ok. Could you give me an example of something infinite besides God? Or explain what you mean?
Well, a Multiverse for example, like Silvertusk was describing. More particularly one that exists on its own and was never created by a living being. Multiverse thoeries often claim that the Multiverse as a whole never had a beginning and will never have an end as there is no expansion from a point like there is with our Universe. Under this theory, the Multiverse is basically eternal and infinite, while only individual Universes have their beginnings and ends. If the Multiverse has no beginning, there is no need for it to be created and all the explanations for God's eternal nature could instead apply to a Multiverse.
Again this is not what I believe is true, but I think an uncreated Multiverse is not illogical.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward
Ok. Let me be clearer. Some thing that we actually know exists, that is infinite.
You: Multiverse exists as an infinite because infinite things exist.
Me: Tell me a thing that is infinite?
You: The multiverse, of course!
Me:
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:Ok. Let me be clearer. Some thing that we actually know exists, that is infinite.
You: Multiverse exists as an infinite because infinite things exist.
Me: Tell me a thing that is infinite?
You: The multiverse, of course!
Me:
What? That's not what I said. I said it COULD be exist and be infinite, for the same reason that God COULD exist and be infinite. What if I turned it around and went
You: God exists as an infinite because an infinite entity must exist.
Me: Tell me an entity that is infinite?
You: God, of course!
Me:
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward
