Faith and the agency of man

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jlay
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by jlay »

1over137 wrote:
jlay wrote:Keep in mind, not everything is perfectly analogous.
But here is my best go.

Sickness: sin
Surgeon: Christ
Patient: Lost sinner
Doctor: Preacher/ believer
Ok, thanks.
Yeah, one can imagine that person goes to a preacher to hear a sermon. Well, question is who goes there and whether he trust what is said by the preacher is true.

Usually, one hears gospel from someone. One usually does not deliberately go to hear a sermon and trust it.
who said someone goes to hear a preacher. The "check-up" could be done with the person you meet. Or, someone you are sitting next to on an airplane.
90% of my preaching done outside of a church building.


Regarding who the surgeon decides to treat. We have ample biblical evidence to answer this question. God desires all men... To correlate to the analogy. The surgeon has decided to treat any and all who will trust in him. If it sounds circular it is, but that doesn't mean it's invalid.

Consider this rough analogy. A billionaire decides to give $100k away to a select group of people. The condition is that you have to stand in the yellow circle. If you stand in the cirlce you are elected to receive the reward. In this case, the billionaire has predestined who will be rewarded. (those who stand in the yellow circle.) Who stands in the yellow circle? The elect. Who did the billionaire decide to give the money to? Only the elect. Who are the elect? Those in the circle. He predestined that only the elect would receive the reward.
Question: Who can stand in the circle?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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RickD
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by RickD »

jlay wrote:
Question: Who can stand in the circle?
Only those with legs can stand in the circle. Therefore your God won't heal amputees, and He will not offer them salvation either!

Pardon my French jlay, but your god sucks! :pound:

Put a nail in it. I think I just refuted your entire analogy in one fell swoop! :dancing:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow



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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by FlawedIntellect »

RickD wrote:
jlay wrote:
Question: Who can stand in the circle?
Only those with legs can stand in the circle. Therefore your God won't heal amputees, and He will not offer them salvation either!

Pardon my French jlay, but your god sucks! :pound:

Put a nail in it. I think I just refuted your entire analogy in one fell swoop! :dancing:
There do exist mechanical wheelchairs that can adjust a person's posture into a standing position while still keeping them in place. (Random image grabbed off of Google below.)
Image

Also, artificial limbs can help amputees stand in the circle.
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by RickD »

FlawedIntellect wrote:
RickD wrote:
jlay wrote:
Question: Who can stand in the circle?
Only those with legs can stand in the circle. Therefore your God won't heal amputees, and He will not offer them salvation either!

Pardon my French jlay, but your god sucks! :pound:

Put a nail in it. I think I just refuted your entire analogy in one fell swoop! :dancing:
There do exist mechanical wheelchairs that can adjust a person's posture into a standing position while still keeping them in place. (Random image grabbed off of Google below.)
Image

Also, artificial limbs can help amputees stand in the circle.
Dangnabit! You got me!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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1over137
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

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How should I understand Acts 16:14?
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; [f]and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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jlay
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

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1over137 wrote:How should I understand Acts 16:14?
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; [f]and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Great question. There is no question the language used here is interpreted by monergist as evidence supporting their position. However, I think there is a much more basic explanation.
The text informs us of two important facts. First, she was already a worshipper of God. This informs us that despite living in a pagan world, Lydia believed in the God of Israel. Pretty significant. Secondly, it states that she was listening. Also, not something to be overlooked.

I'll give you a personal example. I went to hear someone speak who runs a ministry that deals with single mothers who are facing extremely tough challenges. Prior to this, I was pretty much uneducated to the issue. After hearing his presentation, you could say that my heart was opened to his ministry. In fact, I might have said something like, "Man, your message really opened my eyes." This is the same type of figurative language. Paul even prays for believers that the eyes of their heart may be enlightened. (Eph. 1:18)

So, how did The Lord open her heart to respond? The Gospel of course. That's what Paul did. He preached the Gospel, which is the POWER of God to salvation for those who believe. So, it is absolutely correct to say, "The Lord opened her heart to respond." The Gospel affords us a message of salvation. Without the message, how could we respond? We can't. The Gospel is the message that God has already done everything needed to forgive sin and provide us redemption. Man cannot work his way towards grace, not even one inch. So, God has provided the Gospel. And we commisioned to share it.

The monergist wants to take this to an entirely different level. That God is flipping some sort of metaphysical light switch that then enables a person to believe.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by Philip »

Consider this rough analogy. A billionaire decides to give $100k away to a select group of people. The condition is that you have to stand in the yellow circle. If you stand in the circle you are elected to receive the reward. In this case, the billionaire has predestined who will be rewarded. (those who stand in the yellow circle.) Who stands in the yellow circle? The elect. Who did the billionaire decide to give the money to? Only the elect. Who are the elect? Those in the circle. He predestined that only the elect would receive the reward.
Question: Who can stand in the circle?
Exactly! ANYONE can stand in the circle, IF they so desire. And their fate is predestined by GOD and PER FIRST His choice to save them and THEIR choice (which He both FIRST gave them and also made possible). But their choice is NOT predestined. Also, obviously, God has ALWAYS known exactly who His Elect are.

I most often hear the objection of: "Well, in case you haven't noticed, God didn't exactly tell EVERYONE about Jesus or the Gospel - as vast millions have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus or having the Gospel." But my answer to that is right out of Romans - and that is one does not need to have a COMPLETE or comprehensive understanding of Whom God is (or about Jesus or His Spirit) to, nonetheless, emphatically and deliberately reject Him. While it is quite likely that God DID provide (in some unlikely, perhaps supernatural way - and BEFORE death) many with what they needed to accept and receive salvation (which we cannot know about), I think that, for most of them, God didn't provide them knowledge of the Gospel or any further knowledge of Himself or Jesus because such people will or already have rejected the basic knowledge of Himself that He says He has ALREADY provided them. And so, any further knowledge would only be met by then with further rejection. And only God can foreknow the hearts and the ultimate spiritual choices of people BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN OR HAVE SINNED EVEN ONCE. And remember, it is God Who sorts and sprinkles individuals across time and geographical places. If God knows the mindset and heart of a person that He knows that, no matter how much information about Himself is provided, that person will STILL deliberately and permanently reject Him - then of what advantage would it to be to such a determined rebel to hear the Gospel, have an abundance of churches nearby, etc. And so I can see how God has likely sorted people geographically and it time, according to His purposes and His foreknowledge.

Many sat at the feet of Jesus, watching Him do incredible miracles and listening to His message, and yet they still would not listen and were determined to continue in their rebellion against the Lord.
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

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Other than those that have mental issues that do not allow them to differentiate between right and wrong, ALL people know right from wrong.
Those that do not have faith in Christ because they did not KNOW Him, will be judges on their works.
Those that do wrong KNOWING it is wrong will be judged accordingly.
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by jlay »

Hana,

Did that help at all? Agree, disagree, feedback?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by 1over137 »

jlay wrote:Hana,

Did that help at all? Agree, disagree, feedback?
Will get back to you when I have more time.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

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Well, I see now that different translations have different meanings http://biblehub.com/acts/16-14.htm

But if NASB is correct then your explanation seems reasonable.

Just one thing: those who have not heard the gospel, well...
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

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Question: how I know which translation is right?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by PaulSacramento »

1over137 wrote:Question: how I know which translation is right?
You don't.
Ask the HS for help and let love guide you.
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Re: Faith and the agency of man

Post by 1over137 »

PaulSacramento wrote:
1over137 wrote:Question: how I know which translation is right?
You don't.
Ask the HS for help and let love guide you.
Even if I learned Greek I would not know?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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