All Men Are Created Equal

[YoungApolegist]

What does God say about the rights of gay people? Should gay people have the same rights as everyone else? I don't know what the Bible says about that.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Gay people should be able to do as they please, I don't have to agree with their choices but why should I expect them to believe the same things I do. God gave us the free will to choose and as long as they are not hurting anyone I will honor the gift that was given to them and love them as my Father loves me.

Edit. I am actually not opposed to gay marriage in the same way I am not opposed to secular hetero marriage.

Edit2. Just wanted to clarify that while I am not opposed to gay marriage neither am I a supporter.

[YoungApolegist]

Gay people should be able to do as they please, I don't have to agree with their choices but why should I expect them to believe the same things I do. God gave us the free will to choose and as long as they are not hurting anyone I will honor the gift that was given to them and love them as my Father loves me.

Edit. I am actually not opposed to gay marriage in the same way I am not opposed to secular hetero marriage.

Edit2. Just wanted to clarify that while I am not opposed to gay marriage neither am I a supporter.

I think that while I don't support homosexuality, I don't have any ill feelings towards them. If I were to hate them because of sin, then I would have to hate every man on Earth. That's what is so great about the US; everybody is guaranteed unalienable rights that can't and shouldn't be taken away.

[OneMan]

What does God say about the rights of gay people? Should gay people have the same rights as everyone else? I don't know what the Bible says about that.

Well, I'm sure this is what it says about it.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Romans 1: 26 - 27 NASB

[Jac3510]

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/08 ... ottum.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/08 ... ision.html

[Danieltwotwenty]

What does God say about the rights of gay people? Should gay people have the same rights as everyone else? I don't know what the Bible says about that.

Well, I'm sure this is what it says about it.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Romans 1: 26 - 27 NASB

I don't understand what this passage has to do with human rights, unless you are saying that God let them do the things they do and so should we??

[Jac3510]

I don't know what OM was getting at, but it is relevant insofar as no one has the right to do that which is intrinsically disordered. Sure, we have the right to marry, but there is no more such a thing as same sex marriage as there are square triangles.

[RickD]

What does God say about the rights of gay people? Should gay people have the same rights as everyone else? I don't know what the Bible says about that.

What are you referring to?

[neo-x]

I don't think the issue at the core is marriage, its rights. Gay people are not enamored by the word marriage, they are just being equal.

I have been discriminated almost my entire life, so I really don't stand the idea of it. If the gay person wants to marry, let them.

[neo-x]

I don't know what OM was getting at, but it is relevant insofar as no one has the right to do that which is intrinsically disordered. Sure, we have the right to marry, but there is no more such a thing as same sex marriage as there are square triangles.

The problem is, this is inadequate. A gay person can' be straight anymore than you can be gay. So when we say there is no such thing as gay marriage or gay rights of marriage, we're just avoiding the problem.

Gays exist and they can't be straight. They need to function in life too. I think allowing them this is more an act of compassion and charity then anything else.

[Jac3510]

I don't think the issue at the core is marriage, its rights. Gay people are not enamored by the word marriage, they are just being equal.

I have been discriminated almost my entire life, so I really don't stand the idea of it. If the gay person wants to marry, let them.

I don't know what OM was getting at, but it is relevant insofar as no one has the right to do that which is intrinsically disordered. Sure, we have the right to marry, but there is no more such a thing as same sex marriage as there are square triangles.

The problem is, this is inadequate. A gay person can' be straight anymore than you can be gay. So when we say there is no such thing as gay marriage or gay rights of marriage, we're just avoiding the problem.

Gays exist and they can't be straight. They need to function in life too. I think allowing them this is more an act of compassion and charity then anything else.

Whether they can change their sexual preference has nothing to do with the question. The fact is that gay marriage does not exist. It is a contradiction in terms. You cannot grant what does not exist. And you are wrong that they are just looking for equality and don't care about the word marriage. One of the things manys states tried early on was to grant civil unions to homosexuals but reserve the word 'marriage' for heterosexual couples. They wasn't good enough. They want the WORD.

And, in fact, they want more. They want full acceptance on the part of society as their lifestyle being normal, being ordered, having normative moral standing.

That is why what I posted is adequate, and it is the only thing that is adequate. I have no problem recognizing that homosexuals exist and that they cannot do anything about their desires. But we, as a society, need to treat those desires as what they are: intrinsically disordered. We do not change fundamental institutions to accomodate disorder.

Now, in the defense of the LGBT community, the fact is that we have already done that, and we did so long before they started asking for a seat at table. We did so when Reagan enacted no-fault divorce back in the 70s and that became a national standard by the mid 80s. But, just because we make one or two or twenty mistakes, it doesn't follow that we have to make the next one.

[neo-x]

That may be true in states, but here the LGBT community is most often treated with hatred. They haven't even considered marriage yet. Which if they did would result in a backlash of the society equal to when the afro-americans first demanded education over at the states.

I do think that you are stating two different things, when you do realize that Gays can't do anything about their desires, then that just follows that they needed to be treated in equality. Now, as for gay marriage is concerned, even if the want the word, so what? What does that change? People take up sexual orientation as kids but they don't do it because of external factors. Anymore then we change sexuality because of external factors. Its most likely hardwired. And if its hardwired then either your child is gay or straight, but whatever he is, the definition of what marriage is, will only affect him in theory. Practically he isn't going to turn gay because the word marriage is open to same-sex too. Or he isn't going to remain straight just because the society recognizes it between man and woman.

On the same hand you also say that it is a mistake to allow them this right. Well if they behave this naturally then we must admit that the problem lies there, in the persons being and how they are created.

Consider the alternative, and what good does that do? What if marriage is only reserved for straight people, so then what you have is a class of citizens which are actually labeled disordered. And the fact that their disorder has nothing to do with their choice, makes it all the more, unfair.

They want full acceptance on the part of society as their lifestyle being normal, being ordered, having normative moral standing.

So does people who lie or drink or whatever.

Even a murderer has the same right to a fair trail as an un-convicted citizen.

But we, as a society, need to treat those desires as what they are: intrinsically disordered. We do not change fundamental institutions to accommodate disorder.

Yes you do, those people are as much part of the society as you are. Its not a theocracy. Its democracy, there is no hard line institution-defined, resting in the OM concretely. Your laws change so does the words and so does the culture.

I have seen obnoxious behavior from the gay community but that is no more different then we having fred phelps and his family. I know gay teens who committed suicide. And I am currently engaged with two more teens who frequently go in and out of suicidal depression, counselling them and all, but for the life of me, I have stopped telling them that they need to change, frankly they can't, I tried it but they can't. I used to think like you but my interaction has kind of affected my views. I see more need of compassion and less for rules and theories. I may be flat out wrong but I believe we should do what helps even if its based in absurdities like squared triangles.

Our wild cat gave birth to two kittens, they are really small. I try to feed them often out of my own hand. One scratches me, the other just cowers down but eats nonetheless. I have improved the trust bond with the latter kitten but still, with each loose grip, he shoots out of my hands, that is just how is wired to behave and he does that. I have tried a lot to change his attitude, but still can't. He falls back to do what he does.

I sometimes wonder, what will happen to our natural law, if we did concretely find out that God in his infinite wisdom hardwired the gay people and the straight people and the bi-crowd. I really do think it will be a dent in our understanding of who God is.

my Islamic coworkers think that I am not equal to them also, that my faith is basically false and that makes me inferior and wrong. I am asked to recite koran in the school. Say their prayers, learn their prayers and on occasion recite their prayers, its all part of academics here. Just because they define equal differently to what I think it is, there is no reason why anyone on a social scale should accommodate it because according to others, its defined as such. When something does not match with your reality, you can't accept it.

TBH, I agree in theory with what you said, but I also feel that in agreeing with this, we are opening up to a wider gap between people. We are right in principle but wrong still. Its not enough. It solves nothing. Its a futile attempt.

You know it would be have been much better of an action if we offer no resistance, let them be equal, I think this will actually help in making bridges. Keep playing tug of war and so far, they are inching towards their goal.

[jlay]

Wow, some of the responses show how much postmodern philosophy has affected Christian thought.

Saying the homosexuality is unnatural and improper to act out on is not restricting or impeding anyone's human rights.
This 'as long as no one gets hurt' mentality is about as shallow as one can think. The responses i see from Christians are more reflective of Maslow's self-actualization in the heirarchy of needs.
The other problem is that much of Christendom doesn't even understand how to present the argument. It's just comes acorss as some narrow mind fundie with homophobia. It's sad.

A Christian should be about all believers (and in a broader sense all people) fulfilling their God given potential. If a person bases their entire identity on their sexual attraction and what they do with their sex organs, then this aint happening. Period. End of story.

[neo-x]

Wow, some of the responses show how much postmodern philosophy has affected Christian thought.

Saying the homosexuality is unnatural and improper to act out on is not restricting or impeding anyone's human rights.
This 'as long as no one gets hurt' mentality is about as shallow as one can think. The responses i see from Christians are more reflective of Maslow's self-actualization in the heirarchy of needs.
The other problem is that much of Christendom doesn't even understand how to present the argument. It's just comes acorss as some narrow mind fundie with homophobia. It's sad.

A Christian should be about all believers (and in a broader sense all people) fulfilling their God given potential. If a person bases their entire identity on their sexual attraction and what they do with their sex organs, then this aint happening. Period. End of story.

This isn't about as long as no one gets hurt, its about the right to choose your partner, when you don't have much other choice. It is an inherent right.

[RickD]

Wow, some of the responses show how much postmodern philosophy has affected Christian thought.

Saying the homosexuality is unnatural and improper to act out on is not restricting or impeding anyone's human rights.
This 'as long as no one gets hurt' mentality is about as shallow as one can think. The responses i see from Christians are more reflective of Maslow's self-actualization in the heirarchy of needs.
The other problem is that much of Christendom doesn't even understand how to present the argument. It's just comes acorss as some narrow mind fundie with homophobia. It's sad.

A Christian should be about all believers (and in a broader sense all people) fulfilling their God given potential. If a person bases their entire identity on their sexual attraction and what they do with their sex organs, then this aint happening. Period. End of story.

This isn't about as long as no one gets hurt, its about the right to choose your partner, when you don't have much other choice. It is an inherent right.

Neo,

I don't see Jac saying they can't choose their partner. He's saying it's just not marriage.

I haven't seen anyone here say, "gay people can't be with whom they want". Nobody is calling for the enforcement of sodomy laws.