How come Jesus never wrote anything down?

[Kenny]

So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

So is it simple? Or is it complicated?

Ken

It is both Ken
It is simple for those that have ears and want to listen and complicated for those with ears but cannot hear.

Are you saying some have the advantage of special eyes and ears to see and hear while others do not have this advantage?

Ken

[1over137]

[melanie]

So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow.

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in
Yes I believe it was God's plan to make it a little difficult for us, but maybe not in the sense you mean.
That is why Jesus spoke in parables, he knew that not everybody would understand or give proper thought to the parables. Some people tune their hearts and ears to God's voice, while others deliberately block their ears. When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables he quoted Isaiah saying "let those that have eyes see, and those that have ears listen" It is a choice we have to make, it is God's way of seperating the wheat from the chaff.

It seems to me it would be just as easy to be “chaff” with a clear message as it is an unclear one; the difference is it is much more difficult to be wheat when the message is unclear and complicated; do you agree?

That was my point but it doesn't have to be its a choice on our behalf, salvation is simple, surrender yourself to Jesus and what was unclear and complicated becomes clear in truth and understanding.

If you read the bible to satisfy your mind, to find answers on an intellectual level only you will never find the truth hidden in the words, you simply just cannot. What is contained within the bible is the food for our spirit, it is through the Holy Spirit that understanding and truth is revealed. That is why a christian can read the bible over and over again, why we can a read a passage 10 times, 100 times, 1000 thousand times. I am not into repetitive reading for the sake of it, I would never read even my favourites books 100 times, maybe over the years several, but not over and over again, it would end up becoming boring, tedious and pointless.
But it is so different when it comes to the Bible, you can read a passage, then again the following week, year or decade and everytime something new and different can be revealed, because it is the language of the spirit that is being spoken, the words on the page a merely a tool, the Holy Spirit breathes the translation to our souls, as we grow and change in our spirit, so does our truth and understanding.

Do you suppose that might be why so many Christians disagree on the bible, because each time one reads it something different and new is revealed?

Something new and different in regard to our own spirit, personal salvation and personal walk with our Father. I was speaking on purely a spiritual level not a theological one. When you are coming at this from your perspective that is a concept that I would imagine would be extremely difficult to fathom. No theology will ever fully explain God and his ways because God is infinitely and eternally higher than we are, any attempts to fully describe God will fall short, this is where the disagreements stem from. It comes down to everyone thinking their opinions are right and in the endless debate and arguments sometimes one can find themselves lost within quarrel, missing the most importance message that Jesus' came here to deliver to mankind. I make a point of trying to not enter into such disagreements with other Christians but focusing on what the bible has to teach to enrich our souls.

Can someone please help me with how to use quotes properly, clearly it's quite the struggle lol. I am not tech savvy.

[melanie]

So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

So is it simple? Or is it complicated?

Ken

It is both Ken
It is simple for those that have ears and want to listen and complicated for those with ears but cannot hear.

Are you saying some have the advantage of special eyes and ears to see and hear while others do not have this advantage?

Ken

I am sure you must be being facetious, but either way it shows that no amount of explaining what this parable means is going to bring you closer to an understanding if your spirit is not willing. That was the point of my post.
We do not have ultra human wiz bang eyesight or super duper hearing, just the Holy Spirit, but that's still pretty ultra wiz bang super duper awesome

[Kenny]

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. You said complicated for those with ears but cannot hear." Cannot hear" tells me some people are unable to hear even if they want to. Unless I am misunderstanding you; I assume you meant spiritual ears, or some other type of hearing that is not audible. Is that correct?

Ken

[melanie]

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. You said complicated for those with ears but cannot hear." Cannot hear" tells me some people are unable to hear even if they want to. Unless I am misunderstanding you; I assume you meant spiritual ears, or some other type of hearing that is not audible. Is that correct?

Ken

Spot on Kenny
It is meant in spiritual terms.
The cannot "hear" because they choose not too.
It is our choice.
Salvation isn't reserved for an elect few but for everybody.
But too few choose the path.

[Kenny]

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. You said complicated for those with ears but cannot hear." Cannot hear" tells me some people are unable to hear even if they want to. Unless I am misunderstanding you; I assume you meant spiritual ears, or some other type of hearing that is not audible. Is that correct?

Ken

Spot on Kenny
It is meant in spiritual terms.
The cannot "hear" because they choose not too.
It is our choice.
Salvation isn't reserved for an elect few but for everybody.
But too few choose the path.

So if I understand you correctly, those who choose the salvation path will be able to see and hear, those who choose something else will not?

Ken

[Jac3510]

So if I understand you correctly, those who choose the salvation path will be able to see and hear, those who choose something else will not?

As someone better than me has said:

• For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved. For it is written:
  
  I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
  and I will set aside the understanding of the experts.
  
  Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made the world’s wisdom foolish? For since, in God’s wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached. For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God’s power and God’s wisdom, because God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength. (1 Cor. 1:18-25, HCSB)

And again,

• Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the [natural person] does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is [judged] spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can [judge] everything, yet he himself cannot be [judged] by anyone. For
  
  who has known the Lord’s mind,
  that he may instruct Him?
  
  But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:10-16, HSCB [My modifications to the translation in brackets])

And finally,

• But thanks be to God, who always puts us on display in Christ and through us spreads the aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. And who is competent for this? For we are not like the many who market God’s message for profit. On the contrary, we speak with sincerity in Christ, as from God and before God. (2 Cor. 2:14-17, HCSB)

Spiritual people can judge, discern, or understand spiritual things. Natural people cannot judge, discern, or understand spiritual things. On the contrary, to the natural person, spiritual things are foolish, and that by God's design. And even that is a spiritual principle, such that the natural man thinks even that is foolish. The end is that all true wisdom comes from the Lord (thus, cf. Prov. 9:10), and any "boasting" one may make with regards to his or her understanding of spiritual things must and can only be in the relying upon the Lord, which demands humility, faith, and dying to one's self.

Those who are not willing to so rely upon the Lord--those who will not die to themselves but insist that God bow His omnipotent and sovereign knee to their puny wills--will find themselves locked out of the divine wisdom. They will not see. They will not hear. They will, as Jesus said, "die in [their] sins" (John 8:24).

[melanie]

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. You said complicated for those with ears but cannot hear." Cannot hear" tells me some people are unable to hear even if they want to. Unless I am misunderstanding you; I assume you meant spiritual ears, or some other type of hearing that is not audible. Is that correct?

Ken

Spot on Kenny
It is meant in spiritual terms.
The cannot "hear" because they choose not too.
It is our choice.
Salvation isn't reserved for an elect few but for everybody.
But too few choose the path.

So if I understand you correctly, those who choose the salvation path will be able to see and hear, those who choose something else will not?

Ken

Question for you Ken, you have asked these exact questions regarding spiritual "hearing" before on other threads before I joined. Are you asking me with sincerity to gain another person's perspective on the matter or are we just doing the tango?? Meaning you don't have to agree with me, and I have no issue with people asking questions I think it's great, but not for the mere sake of idle contention. No probs with chit chat, I could talk the hind legs off a donkey but just not into BS.

[Kenny]

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. You said complicated for those with ears but cannot hear." Cannot hear" tells me some people are unable to hear even if they want to. Unless I am misunderstanding you; I assume you meant spiritual ears, or some other type of hearing that is not audible. Is that correct?

Ken

Spot on Kenny
It is meant in spiritual terms.
The cannot "hear" because they choose not too.
It is our choice.
Salvation isn't reserved for an elect few but for everybody.
But too few choose the path.

So if I understand you correctly, those who choose the salvation path will be able to see and hear, those who choose something else will not?

Ken

Question for you Ken, you have asked these exact questions regarding spiritual "hearing" before on other threads before I joined. Are you asking me with sincerity to gain another person's perspective on the matter or are we just doing the tango?? Meaning you don't have to agree with me, and I have no issue with people asking questions I think it's great, but not for the mere sake of idle contention. No probs with chit chat, I could talk the hind legs off a donkey but just not into BS.

I don’t recall asking such a question; that isn’t to say I did not, I probably did. It may have been a case like with you and I where I asked a question that has nothing to do with “spiritual hearing” and various people answer the question different ways and one person answers the question in a way that leads to spiritual hearing. But again; I do not remember having a conversation about spiritual hearing.

Ken

[B. W.]

....I don’t recall asking such a question; that isn’t to say I did not, I probably did. It may have been a case like with you and I where I asked a question that has nothing to do with “spiritual hearing” and various people answer the question different ways and one person answers the question in a way that leads to spiritual hearing. But again; I do not remember having a conversation about spiritual hearing.

Ken

So You do not remember having a conversation about spiritual hearing????

God is indeed speaking, it is you who chooses not to hear...

Is he speaking to me in a language I am able to understand?

Yes...

Then why can't I hear him?

Ken

[B. W.]

....I don’t recall asking such a question; that isn’t to say I did not, I probably did. It may have been a case like with you and I where I asked a question that has nothing to do with “spiritual hearing” and various people answer the question different ways and one person answers the question in a way that leads to spiritual hearing. But again; I do not remember having a conversation about spiritual hearing.

Ken

So You do not remember having a conversation about spiritual hearing????

He is not hidden - you see the universe or not?

Are you listening? or is pride, like wax, stopping your ears from hearing...

I get a feeling when you see the Universe, you read into it a little more than I do.

Ken

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 34#p155234

You refuse to listen - why?

As I explained before, I am only capable of hearing audible sounds. Audible sounds do not require listening in order to hear them. If someone is going to communicate with me in a way that requires I listen using my heart, my mind, my imagination, or anything other than my ears, they are speaking to me using a method that I am unable to understand; thus it would be foolish to try to communicate with me that way.

You are also able to to read signs and body language as well too. For example, you can read, signs in the sky that points out that a storm is near or body language from another that indicates if one is happy or sad. in fact, does reading what we, existing beings, have typed produce audible sounds, if what you stated is true, then you could not read...

Therefore, stating that you can only hear audible sounds is in error. There are many ways in which we perceive and hear what is around us. If I spoke thus: "Því svo elskaði Guð heiminn, að hann gaf son sinn eingetinn, til þess að hver sem á hann trúir glatist ekki, heldur hafi eilíft líf." How would you know what an intelligent being wrote unless you learned to read the language?

Likewise, God is speaking to you in many ways - you chose to not hear due to thinking that your own language is the only one and way...

You are right, that I am able to get messages in other ways than audible sounds. My point is, if your God is speaking to me, he is using a method that I am unable to recognize. If God is everything the Bible claims he is, he knows enough about me to get the message across in a way that I can understand.

Ken

You did say that God knows you well enough to get the message across ... here is the message again... from our last conversation before I left to go out of town 2 weeks ago...

The Cross

You really want to hear the message of the cross in a way you can understand it? Well. Let’s see…

Jesus said in Matthew 25:40 a principle that will condemn or excuse a person, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

Keep these words in mind as we go and please take to time to read the verses cited in full.


Matthew 26:3-4 people assemble and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not kill one such as in character assassination, anger, bitterness, vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. All these, the cross expose this way:

Who have you sought and plotted harm too? Why are you here on this forum and what is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…


Matthew 26:14-16, 47-50 Jesus was betrayed by a friend

How many friends and folks have you betrayed and let down?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right?

Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with you words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God? Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too? Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so?

Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God? Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…

Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so…


Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law

Luke 23:1-4 a whole multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors.

Luke 23:5-7 Passing the buck to escape blame and seeking a way out

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God? Do you not teach and without proper understanding try to pit God’s bible against itself to justify your anger and disbelief in God – why should he talk openly with such that do this? Yet, he does…


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word… How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God?


Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the elites and governmental authority was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death

Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force?


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? Yet he is speaking and revealing the nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God… by the events that portray the real work of the cross uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily, those that nailed him and conspired and speak falsehoods, those who trade the bad in exchange for the good…

Why God has forsaken humanity is answered in silence - listen - read - is he really that silent?

How have you done likewise to family, friends, strangers, Christians, God? - "Done it to the least of these... you done it to me me." Jesus said long ago rings truer than any of us realize...

– are you not demanding him speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why? And you boldly assert that He speak with you on your terms with this in your heart proven by how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours – now? Yet, he is speaking, you choose not to hear or do you?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but did he really? No… He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing God’s wrath for these sins and man’s wrath as well to. He paid the death penalty for your actions. He said this…


Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? continue to cast lots?

John 3:14-17, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18-19, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20-21, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

He is speaking-speaking through the existence of the universe, in your conscience, all the time, it you who must decide to continue to refuse to hear or to finally listen – that choice is up to you…

Whatever point you are trying to make..... I am not getting it.

Ken

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=165

You are hiding who and what you really are and expecting to get away with all the stuff you have done to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God...

He is not hidden..

Are you listening? or is pride, like wax, stopping your ears from hearing...

Then Jaly wrote and you responded...

If the foundation that Jesus stands on is the God of the Old Testament, I cannot follow Jesus while rejecting his foundation; even though I may agree with what Jesus says. To me that would be akin to voting for a politician who is an active member of the Ku Klux Klan simply because I agree with what he says on various political issues

Ken

So, you're not going to read the book. You could have just said so.

Oh my bad! I thought you knew me better than that. Okay! Here goes......uh um..... I am not going to read the book!

Ken

And there you have it folks.
He is offered a book that takes the time to deal with the difficulties of the OT. One that is excellent in its scholarship and ability to examine the subject matter that is Kenny admits is the source of his struggle. Heck, one of our members graciously offers to give him a copy. he refuses. Any of you who continue to engage Kenny are only bringing scorn on yourselves. It's also obvious he ignored the links I provided regarding the hiddenness of God. He demands that god comply with what he thinks god ought to be, and then can't understand that this is the epitome of obtuse. He's failed even the most fundamental purpose of this discussion forum.

Kenny, best of luck to you. Prayers for you. But, as long as you retain that stubborn disposition, I am shaking the dust off of my feet regarding anymore dialogue with you. Good day.

Why are you so bent on me reading this book? Does it address the subject at hand? Does this book have anything to do with what will happen if God addressed the entire world? No! Admit it! This is another attempt to hijack this topic and discuss something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and you are getting sore at me because I am refusing to play along. If you want to discuss something else, start another topic. If you want to talk about the Old Testament wars, which books to read, or play convert the Atheist or whatever; start another thread and we can discuss that stuff. Let’s try to keep things on topic. Fair enough?

Ken

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 34#p155234

Why are we bent on you reading the bible?

Answer - to help you hear the message God is speaking to you because he knows you well enough how to speak to you. However, you refuse to hear, reject all listening, spurn all acknowledgment, while putting God on trial rejecting to read or hear his testimony...

It is you whom cannot hear...
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-
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[Starhunter]

Some people interpret the Old Testament as saying that it was the Son of God who wrote the ten commandments on stone with His own finger, and in the New Testament, as a man He wrote the sins of some men in the sand, where they could be symbolically rubbed out. But why there are no records of any other writings? good Q. Could it be that people would make a market or idol of them, like they did with the brazen serpent Moses made?

[Kenny]

B.W.

You appear to be all over the place on this; however you did list some examples of various people on different threads refering to how God communicates; and even though I don't think any of them specifically mentioned "spiritual hearing" I can see how God communicating to people and spiritual hearing being connected in a round about way, which makes my point: sometimes when I ask a question that has nothing to do with spiritual hearing, someone may respond in a way that leads to the subject. So...... What's your point?

Starhunter

So you suspect if Jesus wrote the Bible, people would make an idol of it?

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

People use the Bible as it currently is as an idol, I guess it's safe to assume they would do the same with a text Jesus wrote. I think Jesus wanted us to live by the spirit, we know in our hearts what is right and what is wrong and as soon as something is written down we can fall into legalism and idol worship because we lose our focus on God by focusing on what was written instead of the spirit of it. A prime example of this is creation perspectives, Christians abusing other Christians because their interpretation is different from another's and ignoring what the spirit of the message is, which is far more important than the how.