Daniel 7 The ten kings and the little horn.

[Mazzy]

Very interesting.
Recently I was surprised to find out that Islam was founded by the Papacy, and that the Papacy is a culmination of the abomination that makes desolate. That would be in harmony with the theme of Daniel - the battle between Christ and Satan as demonstrated in the religious and political affairs of the world, (hence this topic is subjected to swamping).

This comment above has no basis in fact. The Pope did not start Islam. Would you please offer more than your opinion?

The abomination of desolation is the work of Satan to undermine truth and the persecution of the saints. So the Jewish leaders were also participants in it, by killing the prophets and God's Son. This was the beginning of darkness that would extend far in to the future. Islam denies the divinity of Christ so it too comes under the same umbrella.
The little horn is the power of Rome, and later on its defiance of heaven, is the religious aspect which came to fruition with the Papacy - commonly mistaken as the Christian Church. The torture and slaying of 60 million people is not Christian, and if it is I'm not a Christian.
It reigns in different manners until the end of time, one of which would be the different factions of false religion.

Re the 1290 days and the removal of the daily sacrifice, it has to be examined in the context of previous material in Daniel, even the same chapter which gives some of the clues. So whatever chapter 12 presents, ought to harmonize with, the vision of the metal image, the four beasts, the ram and the goat, and the little horn, and of course chapter 11 which is an angel's point of view of the world conflict, from Media Persia until the end.

Indeed it is prophesied that THE CHURCH/CONGREGATION of God would go into apostasy. Therefore the entire congregation of God is still Identified as being THE CHURCH OF GOD. The church of God is to come out of apostasy. I suggest this is now beginning with the WCC and most faiths acknowledging that all Christians are saved and likely many non Christians that are of good conscience may also be saved through grace.

The statue can be made into anything one wants it to be. Many religions and sects can biblically argue different things. Persia, Greece etc may well be the representation of past nations and yet Satan is not at war with the unholy. Satan Loves them. Satan is at war with a mighty army he hates.

I usually find that those that like to throttle Christianity's roots are not game to tell their own faith because its' roots are usually worse. If such people are not of an identifiable faith then they are 'no namers' that just hate Christians and everyone else, like to make it up as they go along and for some unexplainable reason think they are the only ones that are 'saved'.

[Starhunter]

Fair enough, I agree, of course no one has suggested that individuals are lost because they worship under a particular creed.
On the other hand to say that every system of religion and every cult, sect or secret society gets you to heaven, so long as we all get along, is very naive.
It's a place of confusion out there - called Babylon, and there is a wake up call to come out of it. Rev 18:4. Genuine Christianity has always been the target of abuse. Look at Moses, all the prophets, Christ, the apostles, the church in the wilderness during the reign of Papal terror, the reformation, the remnant in Revelation - 12:17. 14:12 etc. Here is no amalgamation of all satanic variants of error, but a distinct people with two marked characteristics.

[Mazzy]

Fair enough, I agree, of course no one has suggested that individuals are lost because they worship under a particular creed.
On the other hand to say that every system of religion and every cult, sect or secret society gets you to heaven, so long as we all get along, is very naive.
It's a place of confusion out there - called Babylon, and there is a wake up call to come out of it. Rev 18:4. Genuine Christianity has always been the target of abuse. Look at Moses, all the prophets, Christ, the apostles, the church in the wilderness during the reign of Papal terror, the reformation, the remnant in Revelation - 12:17. 14:12 etc. Here is no amalgamation of all satanic variants of error, but a distinct people with two marked characteristics.

Come out of what Babylon of confusion? Please be clear. Come out of Catholicism or Anglicanism or Christianity in general??? And go where??? Perhaps start your own sect that is meant to be better than the rest?? Is that what you are suggesting we all do or Catholics should do, or just the pope??? Please be clear.

We are saved through faith because try as you may with good deeds you will never win or merit salvation nor deserve salvation. You do not merit salvation any more than any terrorist pope you appear to need to talk about over at least two threads.

The bible tells us divisions must come and these will show the one approved by God. What you are doing Starhunter is allowing differences and worse, history, to demonstrate you may not be approved by God. The basics are what are important and in these the church of God needs to unite. The WCC has worked this out, thankfully. I strongly suggest that those that are refusing to join or support the WCC are saying lots about their need to support division and exclusionary doctrine. IOW, the doctrine of man supported by hatred.

As far as whom is worthy of salvation today, God doesn't care about what you think of history. The popes weren't the only miserable cretins around in the world. In Christ what is needed to be known is clear. 1. Followers of Christ are saved through grace and will never merit salvation themselves. 2. The greatest 2 commandments are to love God with your all and love your neighbour as yourself AND that includes your enemy ie in your case the pope. 3. Don't judge anyone because the straw in the popes eye, or a Jews eye, or even an Islamists eye, may be small compared to the plank in yours!

Anyone that suggests the papacy is a world power with all the fornication, adultery and divorce that is happening today, is seriously deluded.

Genuine Christianity today has nothing to do with past popes, other than to identify Gods church today.

[Starhunter]

I love your zeal, and I am not being facetious.

[Mazzy]

I love your zeal, and I am not being facetious.

Starhunter, you said people need to get out of Babylon which you are identifying, at least in part, with the papacy. What do you suggest Catholics should do? Where should they go? Should they sit at home and congregate with themselves? Join the Starhunter faith or their own following?

One does not need to leave anything really. One needs to work it out in good conscience. I know what I will be telling God in the judgement as to why I attend an Anglican church and why I may decide to leave it and choose another. In the letters to the congregations in Revelation, the churches did some things well and others badly and this was held against them. The scripture said nothing about geting out of that congregation, going to another, or starting another church or becoming a 'no name'. The scriptures gave kudos to those that were not preaching false teachings within that congregation.

I am a Catholic that attends an Anglican church for many reasons. That does not mean I think less of Catholic church attendees or the Pope. The popes accept their history and repent of these ways. They do not defend their previous actions. Anglicans, JWs, Mormons etc etc are all rooted to Catholicism and their roots after protesting and splitting away, make some other faiths look even worse.

The papacy is not a world power. It had alot of power in some lands, not all, once upon a time but not anymore. It may have a little influence in some lands but that is about it. The papacy, despite its failings, is still included in the congregation of God.

Please let us know what you suggest Catholics should do, and where they should go to worship.

[Starhunter]

God loves His own in all denominations. Where they should worship?

Paul Sacramento and a few others have dealt with the subject of worship and fellowship, and how the Church of Christ such as defined in Rev 19:10 and other places, is not restricted to any building or creed. You have also given that picture of recognized unity among all genuinely following Christ, removing the divisions that society and religions create, placing all men as equal in the eyes of God.

As you have pointed out, the daughters of the Mother church also apostatized, and in some cases went even further off the rails than she did.

Ever since the rebellion in heaven by Satan, he has sought to separate men from God, and has succeeded by getting them to trample on the principles of love, as defined in the commandments of God and by the faith of Jesus. I think any organisation that continues to neglect both these doctrines cannot be the remnant (the remainder or last of genuine believers) that the dragon hates.
The remnant are the same as those who began the Christian faith - Christ and the disciples. We see a need to dispense with fences and creeds, and a revival of a primitive faith. Then no doubt we are being led to associate with those of the same conviction.

[Mazzy]

God loves His own in all denominations. Where they should worship?

Ever since the rebellion in heaven by Satan, he has sought to separate men from God, and has succeeded by getting them to trample on the principles of love, as defined in the commandments of God and by the faith of Jesus. I think any organisation that continues to neglect both these doctrines cannot be the remnant (the remainder or last of genuine believers) that the dragon hates.
The remnant are the same as those who began the Christian faith - Christ and the disciples. We see a need to dispense with fences and creeds, and a revival of a primitive faith. Then no doubt we are being led to associate with those of the same conviction.

In one breath you say God loves his own in all denominations, which I agree with to some degree. Then you get into exclusionary talk by suggesting that any organization that neglects love and some unknown commandments you uphold cannot be the remnant ie, genuine believers. I cannot judge the one sitting next to me at church that is still stuck in dark age teachings as being less worthy of salvation than I and neither should you. Jesus came to save sinners and his blood covers a multitude of sin. Who are you to suggest you know which sin Christs blood does or does not cover?

If you would actually learn about the WCC you would find that thier purpose is to unify the congregation of God. Loving God and each other are the only commandments, given we are now dispensed from the law. Anything else the NT refers to are just other ways of inacting these 2 greatest commandments or is said to those that have chosen to remain under law. The WCC agrees that the rest is based on the word of man sold as doctrine and is not what saves or condemns.

In every church, even your own, even with those not aligned with a faith, we are all sinners and have absolulutely no God given right to say another person or faith is worse in Gods eyes than ourselves. If you do infer such a judgement, then you yourself are as guilty of not loving your neighbour as yourself as the ones you are suggesting are neglecting doctrine.

No one can save themselves through works and one is a liar if they say they never sin. These ones are playing a game of 'I am holier than thou', which is flying very close to judgement. A bad thought is sin. One lust is sin. Having an extra shirt in your wardrobe you do not need rather than giving every cent over what is needed to the needy is sin. Be you guilty of one sin you have broken the lot and if you remain under law you have broken over 300 commandments.

[Mazzy]

Starhunter, I might add also that the Anglican church do not tell me how to think. The Nicene creed is really the only thing one needs to believe and BTW, no one checks up on it.

As for my Catholic friends, they just go to church as a way of gathering with other believers and making friends that are theists and of good moral standing. They take from the sermon what assists them. If they got bored with the priest they'd go to another church. Pope Francis doesn't even believe or adhere to alot of the stuff printed in Catholic literature. However, the pope can't just wave his hand and do away with millenium of tradition. Just because the pope and Catholics ask Mary or the saints to pray for him/them and believe the saints can have a word to God on their behalf is no reason to say my way of thinking or yours, or our conscience is any better than theirs, or we sin less or are any more worthy of being called the 'remnant', whatever that means according to your own doctrine.

[Starhunter]

Sure, Mazzy, I think I get where you are coming from.

In regards to the thread topic, the symbols of the ten horns etc are mentioned in Daniel and Revelation, and those prophecies indicate what the world empires would be, and who the saints are - including the remnant of them. There is a clear definition for them, found several times in Revelation. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."
It is written so that we may know what is going on in the world, with the political and religious climates. There are hundreds of churches teaching contradicting views on these matters.
To come out of Babylon, Rev 18, does not necessarily mean to run out of a building or city, although it would help in some cases! It means we must know the scriptures for ourselves.

The faith of Jesus and the commandments of God ought to be known as the Bible presents them. If we go by global religious trends we could end up in Revelation 13:3 where the whole world wanders into erroneous worship.

So the Q about the kings and horns is very important to understand. Revelation begins with a blessing to the reader.

[Mazzy]

Sure, Mazzy, I think I get where you are coming from.

In regards to the thread topic, the symbols of the ten horns etc are mentioned in Daniel and Revelation, and those prophecies indicate what the world empires would be, and who the saints are - including the remnant of them. There is a clear definition for them, found several times in Revelation. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."
It is written so that we may know what is going on in the world, with the political and religious climates. There are hundreds of churches teaching contradicting views on these matters.
To come out of Babylon, Rev 18, does not necessarily mean to run out of a building or city, although it would help in some cases! It means we must know the scriptures for ourselves.

The faith of Jesus and the commandments of God ought to be known as the Bible presents them. If we go by global religious trends we could end up in Revelation 13:3 where the whole world wanders into erroneous worship.

So the Q about the kings and horns is very important to understand. Revelation begins with a blessing to the reader.

I am afraid StarHunter, that you are offering circular reasoning that really isn't going to get anywhere. Let's take a look at the lynchpin to your argument. Here is it.

StarHunter said "There is a clear definition for them, found several times in Revelation. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." "

Many faiths and people profess to know exactly how 'the commandments' should be kept. From here is the spring board that gives such people and faiths the base to dive into passing judgement on others of differing opinions.

Let's take an example. A soldier that goes to war and kills to protect his country from invasion. Let's take another example. A person that sees another about to shoot several innocent victims. You have a knife. Your only choice is to kill the perpetrator to save many innocent people. What to do, given both action and inaction can be seen as 'sin' or breaking a commandment?

In the examples above, what commandments will you evoke? Perhaps you may quote from the law "Thou shalt not murder". Perhaps you may quote Jesus "Love your neighbour as yourself".

Indeed there are NO commandments because we are released from law and all the above can only be reconciled by your very own conscience. This is untimately what we will answer to at the judgement.

Church leaders bear much responsibility as their teaching bind ones conscience into believing what may be sin or not. Those that simply listen to church leaders are covered by Christs blood in innocence. Those that can reason better should know better. So I agree that people should know the scriptures, but I disagree that a person is sinning because they listen to the word preached in their church. It is the church leaders that had best reconcile their conscience with thier preaching because they bear heavy responsibility.

I believe getting out of Babylon, IF it has any relevance today, is simply getting away from idol worship and the occult.

[Mazzy]

Revelation begins with a blessing to the reader.

The first paragraph in Revelation suggests 'the time is near'. 2000 years is seriously stretching the imagination in using the term 'near'. I believe Babylon was Jerusalem, and scripture supports that stance. This prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD with the demolishion of the temple for the final time in 70AD. The temple site is now covered by the Dome of the Rock under Islamic control.

If one gives Revelation a greater meaning today, a second fulfillment, then it can only mean the empire of false religion, which in essence relates to idol worship and false Gods.

I don't think Christians need to worry about the church they attend unless their conscience is telling them they are doing something that God may not approve. I believe Jesus blood covers this sin of innocence or good hearted stupidity. That goes for SDAs, JWs, Mormons, etc all of which have some weird teachings and reckon they got it right and are the special ones. Atheists and non Christians being saved or doomed is a different and more complex discussion.

Babylon has fallen and was killed by the beast, being the Roman army. Jerusalem is not a holy city anymore. It is a mess of war and division.

[Starhunter]

Why would the saints be described in Revelation by a simple criteria, if it were actually complex?
And why is that phrase repeated at least six times?

The definition of those features must come from scripture and not from any other source. The confusion of religions will be obvious to anyone once they know what the Bible means.

To come out of Babylon is more of a promise from God than our ability to do it. He will not allow one honest seeker to go without knowing, so that no one can boast of the leadership that only belongs to Christ.

Some teach that it is dangerous to be independent here, saying that this independence leads to cults, which it does, but on the other hand they suggest their own organisation or themselves for further initiation, but you know that you can trust God in your personal research, and leave it up to Him where He takes you.

In the mean time you are in the right place at the right time because you are to contend for truth wherever you are. Such a move places you out of Babylon.

For example, the JW who recognizes that Christ is not a created creature, the Muslim that recognizes the Divinity of Christ, the Catholic who loves Jesus more than saint worship, the Protestant who sees infidelity within the church, the Buddhist who sees no certainty in humanism alone. And who best to talk to others than those of like circumstances?

[Mazzy]

Why would the saints be described in Revelation by a simple criteria, if it were actually complex?
And why is that phrase repeated at least six times?

The saints are not described by a simple criteria at all. In fact the 144000 if taken literally do not include you at all unless you are a Jew. The Great Crowd can be whomever anyone wants them to be, namely fitting YOUR criteria of whom or whom is not obeying the commandments.

The definition of those features must come from scripture and not from any other source. The confusion of religions will be obvious to anyone once they know what the Bible means.

Circular reasoning above. I assume you are suggesting YOU are the one that 'KNOWS' what the bible means exactly in any important point. Here is a news flash.. You don't know anymore than anyone else that believes they've got it right. There is meant to be confusion. This is how the one approved by God is shown. Having said that Jesus came to save the unrighteous.

To come out of Babylon is more of a promise from God than our ability to do it. He will not allow one honest seeker to go without knowing, so that no one can boast of the leadership that only belongs to Christ.

If this comment of your above has merit, then many are an 'honest' seeker and have a good heart, yet according to you, only you and the few have got it right.

Some teach that it is dangerous to be independent here, saying that this independence leads to cults, which it does, but on the other hand they suggest their own organisation or themselves for further initiation, but you know that you can trust God in your personal research, and leave it up to Him where He takes you.

If this is correct above then no one can be an honest seeker unless they study the bible, and hopefully get the right take on what Babylon is. It is too bad that the apostles never had Revelation, and when it was written it would not have been published for all to see and read. In fact being an honest seeker, would then be dependent on being literate and educated. That assertion is not a scriptural teaching. The good news and how ro please God was passed by word of mouth, not the printed bible.

The illiterate cannot study the bible. They are dependent on what they are told.

In the mean time you are in the right place at the right time because you are to contend for truth wherever you are. Such a move places you out of Babylon.

For example, the JW who recognizes that Christ is not a created creature, the Muslim that recognizes the Divinity of Christ, the Catholic who loves Jesus more than saint worship, the Protestant who sees infidelity within the church, the Buddhist who sees no certainty in humanism alone. And who best to talk to others than those of like circumstances?

We are all in the right place at the right time, being now. We are all sinners and have no biblical basis to suggest you, I or anyone else has to get out of any form of Christendom. You can't even say for sure atheists are eternally condemned because Jesus came to save the unrighteous that could very well mean everyone.

The JW that dies due to their belief in the sanctity of blood and refuses to go to war, the protestant that goes to war to protect their country, the Catholic that stabs to death the perpetrator that is about to kill his sister, may all well be accepetable to God. It is about your conscience and that is what one will have to answer to int he judgement. IOW there is no coming out of Babylon in a spiritual sense. Babylon was Jerusalem and that part of the prophecy, in coming soon, has past, in 70AD.

[Starhunter]

You feel like a nobody, because you are constantly attacking me as if I want to be somebody.

You pull apart my posts and lose the gist of my inclusiveness, and you make out that I am egocentric and judgmental.

Possibly all true you know, but what is really happening with you?

You feel judged by something, and you are eager that the Christian world ought to be more accommodating ... of exactly what? It's just a distraction you know. The real issue is what you can't live with. It is none of my business and I don't want to know.

It is easier for most people to evade their own deepest needs, simply because they have a lot of complex, illusive, unresolved and ongoing uneasiness and pain, and they don't want to go there, and don't know where to begin.
It is not a trivial thing to deal with, too important to ignore, and worth your every effort.
And you won't be the first one to go there. No one's perfect as you said, now you will need that support.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

[Mazzy]

You feel like a nobody, because you are constantly attacking me as if I want to be somebody.

You pull apart my posts and lose the gist of my inclusiveness, and you make out that I am egocentric and judgmental.

Possibly all true you know, but what is really happening with you?

You feel judged by something, and you are eager that the Christian world ought to be more accommodating ... of exactly what? It's just a distraction you know. The real issue is what you can't live with. It is none of my business and I don't want to know.

It is easier for most people to evade their own deepest needs, simply because they have a lot of complex, illusive, unresolved and ongoing uneasiness and pain, and they don't want to go there, and don't know where to begin.
It is not a trivial thing to deal with, too important to ignore, and worth your every effort.
And you won't be the first one to go there. No one's perfect as you said, now you will need that support.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

You talk in riddles. In actual fact it is not I that try to appear self righteous, it is you. You attack in riddles and then try to hide behind words.

Do you see these words of yours below?????..

"The definition of those features must come from scripture and not from any other source. The confusion of religions will be obvious to anyone once they know what the Bible means."

The above rings with self righteousness. Don't hide Starhunter. You are clearly visible.