Jac3510 wrote:I appreciate the apology, neo, but none is really necessary. I would simply put the same scenario to you I've put to everyone else. If someone is about to shoot your family member and you could stop them with a gun, would you do it? If not, then I just say that you are deeply morally confused.
And yes, I CAN spiritually justify killing someone. I have a moral obligation to protect both my life and the lives of my loved ones. I'm not a pacifist. I find pacifism deeply unChristian (see, again, the article by Lewis I referred to earlier). If the only way to protect them is by the use of deadly force, then deadly force is justified. The principle is called the law of double effect.
I'm sorry for your losses, too. I hope the people responsible were brought to justice. I hope next time that you or one of your loved ones are in danger, you'll be blessed enough to be able to protect them. I simply ask that you don't try forbid me from protecting my family, because if it comes down to it, there is no neutral ground here. You are either on my side or you are on the rapist's side. Either you are going to hand me the gun so that I can protect myself or you are going to withhold it from me and allow my daughter to suffer that fate. If you put yourself in the latter camp, then not only is an apology necessary, but so is repentance.
Before I begin, let me say that:
1. I write with no ill will or heated debate etc. And I understand what you feel, I have been through it too. And I don't mean to make it light of it, it is not.
2. I am familiar with Lewis's essay and am I am not impressed. Though Lewis remains one of my best writer. However since that was years ago I refreshed my memory by going through it again. My conclusion remains the same, and I disagree with Lewis.
Now Christ taught Jews under cruelty and oppression of the brutal roman laws and customs, that you must forgive your enemies. Romans used to unjustly have the Jews carry huge loads over great distances, Christ said if one takes you far you go farther. Why do you suppose he said those things when by some, Christ was not a pacifistic nor were his teachings?
I wonder if Paul had been assassinated by a group of Christians, whom he was obviously persecuting? Do you suppose that would be a justifiable killing?
And I find you wrong on the spiritual matter Jac. Sure I will give you the gun and I have no right to stop you either nor I am doing that. And I might reach for the gun myself if I am in the same situation as you put.
But there is no way this can be justified spiritually without rejecting the core message of the Gospel. That we should forgive those who persecute us, harm us, oppress us.
And there is also no neutral ground here, either you project God's love and forgiveness or you don't, which he commanded us to do.
But let me give you something real not a hypothetical, and I didn't want to share this but now I am putting it down only because I think you need to also see where I am coming from, its neither pacifism not cowardice. Some time earlier three enraged and armed Muslim men entered my home, got my father outside they were furious because their brother had come to Christ through us. They beat my father, slapped him, shoved him down in the ground. Where I was standing, there was my brother hunting rifle just two steps away from me to my left. They threatened to kill my dad and my family.
My bro's rifle is single barrel. I thought I could shoot one person if I moved quickly, but in the end I didn't. You know why? not because it was not worth it. No. But because I knew that my father would not want me too, even if they killed him. How could he preach to others, love and forgiveness of God when he himself can't follow it or show it?
If he killed then I don't see how he could keep a straight face and talk about all that the gospel preaches. It will be hollow and superficial.
But apart from that, lets say, we do stop a rapist by killing him. Then I think we would be answerable to God. If my daughter or sister is the one suffering this act, I'd intervene, by force, beat the guy, with an inch of his life probably, but no I won't kill him. So don't mistake my attitude with pacifism I am not a tree hugger but I also believe in this "forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Jac, if lets say Paul and Peter, two of churches highest heads, tried to rape a girl, would I still be justified if I killed them?
The rapist could be anybody Jac, your president, your mom, my dad, my brother. You could be a rapist too, so could I. So are we justified in killing in every such instance?
Someone tried to rape me when I was a kid, do you think killing him is justified because he has two small kids to raise too?
I propose this isn't as black and white as one would think.
Spiritually you are no more the master of life of another or your own faults than the person you are about to kill. You can cast the first stone jac, but you better be sinless that is the only way you are justified...and that is equal to playing God.
Also since we are discussing this, why do you think that the early church was EXCLUSIVELY non-violent and non retaliatory?
According to you, is the term "christian-pacifist" an oxymoron?
