Quick answers

[neo-x]

We don't even know for sure if the edge is at 15b LY away. That is just how far we think it is.

Another smart aleck! OK...assume the universe is (15b - X) or (15b + Y) LY across...or any size you like, just pick a number you're comfy with, OK?

How about answering the question?

FL

[/quote]

You will see big patches of the universe the same way here. It is the same if you travel from Canada to china, the earth would still look the same. The sky the same, the sun and the stars, the same way. Because there is no real edge. The only edge you can say, exist, in a weak form would be the light that is still emitting from the bodies at any given number of LY away. Beyond that the universe still exist we just can't see it anymore.

[Mazzy]

Mazzy wrote:
I reckon, In the other direction an observer would likely see void, that being empty space.

Mazzy,

It's generally accepted that when the universe was created, matter, time, and space were created. So, space can't be outside the universe, can it?

Actually God spread out the heavens. Job 9:8. Therefore to me God spread the creation in a space, void, that was already there. Only Big Bangers should be banging their heads on some cosmic wall or confined universe.

[neo-x]

Mazzy wrote:
I reckon, In the other direction an observer would likely see void, that being empty space.

Mazzy,

It's generally accepted that when the universe was created, matter, time, and space were created. So, space can't be outside the universe, can it?

Actually God spread out the heavens. Job 9:8. Therefore to me God spread the creation in a space, void, that was already there. Only Big Bangers should be banging their heads on some cosmic wall or confined universe.

But that's where you are wrong. There was no void to fill with space, nor its being filled now even if the Universe is open . That is why time starts after the singularity expanded and not before.

Furthermore you have to show me how the word heavens means 'space' in Job?

What makes you think job when he refers to heaven, is talking about space Time?

Edited my post.

[Mazzy]

Mazzy wrote:
I reckon, In the other direction an observer would likely see void, that being empty space.

Mazzy,

It's generally accepted that when the universe was created, matter, time, and space were created. So, space can't be outside the universe, can it?

Actually God spread out the heavens. Job 9:8. Therefore to me God spread the creation in a space, void, that was already there. Only Big Bangers should be banging their heads on some cosmic wall or confined universe.

But that's where you are wrong. There was no void to fill with space. That is why time starts after the singularity expanded and not before.

No, I am not wrong. Just because you keep refering back to the myth of the non plausible does not make me wrong at all. It is a nonsense to suggest there was a singularity, nothing else, no void no nothing, just a singularity that for some unknown reason decided to start expanding.

The reason why Big Bangers say it is so hard to imaging the universe existing on the outer edge of a ball with no centre or void in the middle is because the concept is so non plausibly ridiculous.

[Mazzy]

neo-x asked
"What makes you think job when he refers to heaven, is talking about space Time?"



The 'heavens' ofter refers to the sky, space etc.. take your pick.... In the beginning there was God. I doubt He resided in a singularity.

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:7

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, [which is] strong, [and] as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet.
Psalms 18:9

[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: - Isaiah 40:22

And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
Ezekiel 1:22

[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
- Isaiah 40:22

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 42:5

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 44:24

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:12

Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 48:13

And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Isaiah 51:13

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jeremiah 10:12

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Jeremiah 51:15


Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Job 9:8

Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psalms 104:2

Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
Psalms 144:5

He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.
2 Samuel 22:10

[neo-x]

none of this proof texting shows that the proper exegesis of the word heaven in job is space time. Read all you want in the text but at the end its useless.

And you are wrong because it only refers to the sky, not space time. The two, biblically are not the same. And if god is in heaven, and space is heaven, then you have a big problem, because now God exists in tbe singularity.

Further you're claim that there was a void is baseless assertion. Just imagine there is a reason its called tne singularity... Because there was nothing else. I know uts hard to understand but that is how it is.

[neo-x]

I will even challenge your use of word 'void' ?

[neo-x]

And if there was a void before which needed filling then time existed before the singularity. And space existed before too which was filled. And at this point the absurdity of your position is obvious. There no such thing as a void. The singularity was just there, a simple dot, a trillionth of an inch. And that expanded. Its mind boggling but it's there.

There was nothing around it, there was no empty space to fill. The only space which exists is the space which singularity created.

That is why there is no edge. Because there's nothing beyond to look at. You can't bop your head through the curtains and see other universes because we are looping in our own. Space time is curved. Gravity is the result of that curvature. And somehow we get back to where we would start from. Because even at a straight line we'd Still be on a curved path.

[RickD]

Mazzy,

To simplify, look at it this way...

God is the only "thing" that is eternal. Or, only God has always existed.

God created the heavens and the earth(Big Bang).

At the beginning(of space, time, and matter), was the Big Bang. That Big Bang was God's creating all that physically exists(the universe).

The Big Bang had a beginning. That beginning was God.

Believing that the Big Bang happened, doesn't mean one has to deny God. In fact, I would say the Big Bang is strong evidence for God. Things cannot begin to exist, like the universe for example, without something causing it to exist. That can only trace back to God being the first uncaused cause of everything that exists.

[Philip]

Well, as for the distance across, you know what various YECs assert: As if the the universe was created at a certain size that had the characteristic to be able to contiunously expand from it's originally created size, and so the vast distance across is not due to the time it took to expand (at the currently observable rate), but due to HOW it was created: 1) in an ALREADY stretched out vast distance and state and 2) because it was built to continuously and rapidly expand beyond it's original (already stretched out) created state.

I'm not saying I believe the above, but it's what I've seen asserted -I guess you'd call it the "starlight created in transition" theory. Of course, there is considerable astronical evidences to refute this. Plus one also has to account for the geological evidences of the earth.

[melanie]

I have previously not entered into this debate as I quite honestly don't have the scientific background or knowledge to assert my beliefs either way. I know! Nice work Mel, come to a science/christian based forum with the scientific know how of a fifth grader
What I do know is this; I would walk out of science class learning of evolution then walk straight into a religious class and learn of creation and no-one was bridging the gaps. It amused and baffled me. I read my bible and knew what scripture told me but I also could see the scientific evidence for an earth being older than 6000 years. Even though I have always held scientific theories with a grain of salt, it seemed obvious to me that there was indisputable evidence that the earth was infact older then several thousand years.
When I was in my early twenties I questioned God, with questions of why and how, it had zero impact on my belief in The Almighty I had my own indisputable evidence and I never questioned his existence but I wanted to know the answers of the earth and universe. I never got them. I got answers but not definitive. I did not need to know, those answers would one day be answered when I departed from this body and this limited mind. I needed to focus on matters that were definitive, like salvation, and to be 100% honest I was so flawed i had much bigger issues at hand!
So where do I stand, typically me, somewhere in the middle. I am not a YEC I think we have enough evidence to show otherwise, but I am not OEC either. I don't believe and it's not based on anything scientific but my relationship with God that he sat on his hands in anticipation of our creation, with those names written in the book of life that were written before creation of the earth then he orchestrated the Big Bang then waited ohh a small 13 or so billion years for his beautiful creation to come into fruition, to see his plan for us come into existence.
You cannot use scripture as it was never its intention to teach things about the material universe, which I think caused false interpretations and assumptions, likewise as you cannot use science which in its essence it's entirely secular to explain God and his creation.
I don't have a scientific name to attach to it, I think maybe this is where Mazzy is coming from but I could be completely off base, that something existed inbetween. I have heard of gap theory, but I'm not sure this explains what I am trying to say either. I have heard that it's no longer "popular" good thing I don't care for what's popular or mainstream or the majority, I have been shown too many times in life that majority or mainstream means diddly squat to truth. When I read scripture I have always interpreted it to mean that there was was not "nothing" but void to create his canvass for what we know as this current earth and His creation of mankind or modern, intellectual and spiritually discerning man. What occurred within this void over millennia is anyone's guess, and I do not know.
I'm sorry for my complete lack of scientific know how to back my beliefs up, it's just my interpretation and instinct.

[B. W.]

I have previously not entered into this debate as I quite honestly don't have the scientific background or knowledge to assert my beliefs either way. I know! Nice work Mel, come to a science/christian based forum with the scientific know how of a fifth grader

What I do know is this; I would walk out of science class learning of evolution then walk straight into a religious class and learn of creation and no-one was bridging the gaps. It amused and baffled me. I read my bible and knew what scripture told me but I also could see the scientific evidence for an earth being older than 6000 years. Even though I have always held scientific theories with a grain of salt, it seemed obvious to me that there was indisputable evidence that the earth was infact older then several thousand years.

When I was in my early twenties I questioned God, with questions of why and how, it had zero impact on my belief in The Almighty I had my own indisputable evidence and I never questioned his existence but I wanted to know the answers of the earth and universe. I never got them. I got answers but not definitive. I did not need to know, those answers would one day be answered when I departed from this body and this limited mind. I needed to focus on matters that were definitive, like salvation, and to be 100% honest I was so flawed i had much bigger issues at hand!

So where do I stand, typically me, somewhere in the middle. I am not a YEC I think we have enough evidence to show otherwise, but I am not OEC either. I don't believe and it's not based on anything scientific but my relationship with God that he sat on his hands in anticipation of our creation, with those names written in the book of life that were written before creation of the earth then he orchestrated the Big Bang then waited ohh a small 13 or so billion years for his beautiful creation to come into fruition, to see his plan for us come into existence.

You cannot use scripture as it was never its intention to teach things about the material universe, which I think caused false interpretations and assumptions, likewise as you cannot use science which in its essence it's entirely secular to explain God and his creation.

I don't have a scientific name to attach to it, I think maybe this is where Mazzy is coming from but I could be completely off base, that something existed inbetween. I have heard of gap theory, but I'm not sure this explains what I am trying to say either. I have heard that it's no longer "popular" good thing I don't care for what's popular or mainstream or the majority, I have been shown too many times in life that majority or mainstream means diddly squat to truth. When I read scripture I have always interpreted it to mean that there was was not "nothing" but void to create his canvass for what we know as this current earth and His creation of mankind or modern, intellectual and spiritually discerning man. What occurred within this void over millennia is anyone's guess, and I do not know.
I'm sorry for my complete lack of scientific know how to back my beliefs up, it's just my interpretation and instinct.

Yes Melanie, there is the Gap Theory regarding creation. It basically states that there is a gap between the verses of Genesis 1:1 and Gen 1:2. That a pre-Adamic era existed and God removed, and in verse 2 he remakes the earth. The article quoted below is rom Wikipedia: Gap Creationism so folks can gain a basic understanding of it.

Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "The Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-day creation, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, explaining many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth. It differs from day-age creationism, which posits that the 'days' of creation were much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years), and from young Earth creationism, which although it agrees concerning the six literal 24-hour days of creation, does not posit any gap of time.Wikipedia: Gap Creationism

Other variations of the Gap Creationism (GS) states that the pre-Adamic era was destroyed due to the fall of Satan wich ushered in the new. Some of this was based on how one interpreted Eccl 3:15, Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account. NIV

Gap theorist notices a pattern of Eccl 3:15 revealed in Revelation 21:1 as well too, which would mean, in layman's terms - Third time is the charm.

GC, our current time on earth is viewed as being the second purification process and during this time God's word will purify-refine seven times, Psalms 12:6, and that somehow the seven Churches mentioned in the book of Revelation reveals some of this refinement. Not sure what all this means but GS folks make a case from these points.

For me, it doesn't matter. God created the earth and the heavens and took as long as he so desired to do so. As I understand how the Lord works, he test the human heart as it states in: Proverbs 17:3, Psalms 66:10 and...

Psalms 7:9, Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

Psalms 11:5, The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

In this test, human pride is brought to the surface. The most militant YEC's contend that not believing in 6 literal 24 hour days creation is tantamount to blasphemy towards God and Grace is tossed out the door, along with Faith, Hope, and Charity. This exposes something in the human condition and thus - God tests the heart is true indeed. In my view, The Lord is in control and allows us to debate in order to expose something within us that is not right and needs a change - His good fix. The Age of the Earth as per YEC, or OEC, or Gap is not important to me as I can see God's handiwork while I walked last Thursday on Crosier Mountain Trail noticing the large variety of wild flowers and the big Kitties that live their too (Mountain Lions).

The details in nature are too outstanding and point to our Creator's vast deep wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that in that, I do not doubt he created. I am an OEC and as for me it does not matter how long or short God took creating things that resound His Glory! In the long term, in light of eternity only things matter in Jesus Christ and the reconciliation he brought to us viva the Cross and Resurrection. Age of the earth - well - tests the human heart....
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[Philip]

Excellent post, B.W. Your view about what's important pretty much sums up my own. Trying to use human logic to accurately deduce mysteries found in Scripture is a powerful lure for us prideful humans. In effect and divisiveness, I find the whole OEC vs. YEC to be very similar to the debates over Calvinism and human free will. We humans have limited knowledge and limited tools to assess even last week or tomorrow's weather. Then one tries to confidently nail down what happened 14 billion years ago (or HOWEVER long it was) or HOW God did what he did - well, if we could truly do that, I'd probably start to doubt it to be a work of God, as who can truly accurately understand what only an all-powerful God could have done? Isn't it incredible how many people don't believe certain miracles in Scripture because they aren't SCIENTIFICALLY plausible (historically, Thomas Jefferson springs to mind), and so they want to assign allegory or metaphor to anything in Scripture that doesn't seem scientifically possible. But yet these very same people often claim to believe God created the universe. They realize that only God can be the solution as to why there is a Creation, but yet they get all wound up in questioning whether Jesus could turn a little wine into water. This tells me they have put FAR too much faith in our ability to accurately guage the truth of things through science.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I am not a YEC I think we have enough evidence to show otherwise, but I am not OEC either.

You may want to consider Schroeder's Creation Perspective, then. It does a great job of combining YEC and OEC.

[skeptics] get all wound up in questioning whether Jesus could turn a little wine into water.

Actually, Jesus turned water into wine. (Turning wine into water is easy if you have a large enough volume of water.)

FL

[Philip]

Yep, FL, no doubt the wedding partiers might have been a tad upset if the inverse had happened!