Atheist response to big bang.

[Kenny]

But if you understood that then how can you assert the possibility of an infinite state of change? The two are mutually contradictory.

Because I disagree the two are mutally contradictory. If you are going to claim that an eternal state of change is contridictory for something that has been in an eternal state of existence, you need to demonstrate why.

But change, as in how Aquinas argued it, i.e. motion, i.e. as in an essentially ordered series, necessarily precludes an eternal state of change for, from the first way, it was already shown that the first mover must be changeless. Seriously Kenny, if you don't see what I'm saying there really is no point in going any further. Good luck to you.

More claims! You haven’t presented any evidence that the first mover does not move. If you disagree, I challenge you to present the date, and time you presented such evidence.
I am curious; Is there any place in the bible that says God doesn’t move? I know of scriptures that indicate God does move; Genesis 3:8, Exodus 33:22-23, but where does it say he does not move?

Ken

Perhaps one day you will take my advise and do some research on the subject of metaphysics. You aren't there yet. Just to give you some perspective, I've been studying it on and off for a number of years now and I have yet to grasp many aspects of it. I've read The Last Superstition twice and I think I'm about at 10% comprehension. And that's from a person who uses logic for a living.

For your sake I am ending our conversation, but as always, yours is the last word.

Take care my friend.

I appreciate your perspective; thank-you

Ken

[Kenny]

Come on guys! Kenny didn't just fall off the turnip truck! It's going to take a lot more than common sense and logic to convince Kenny.

Thank-you!

Ken

Ohh Kenny
That is what you call a back-handed comment that Rick made. He was being facetious.
I am sarcastic and a smart-a** but I'm not too fond of seeing people have the mickey taken outta them.
I have prayed for you ken and I'm going to continue.
It is not your lack of intelligence or logic that is stumbling you. If all it took was the smarts and a theory we would have a considerably larger, highly intelligent christian family! It is not your mind but your spirit that will lead you to Christ. But you have to be willing. You can have a sceptical mind but you must have an open heart.
Why not give it a go, what do you have to lose? Let's say we're wrong then you are no worse off but if we're right think about what you have to gain. Theoretically if God exists, think about for a moment what that means to you, your life, spirit and your future, would you want to be on the unbelieving side of that coin?
I have a challenge for you, ask Him!
You can be sceptical but you must have sincerity. If you ask " yeah so show me God" all the while in the back of your mind thinking "crock of baloney" of course that will get you no-where, and im sure you can see why. But if you say something along the lines of "God, I don't know if your real or not but I'm willing to find out, I want the truth and if that lies within you then please show me"
Don't expect lightning bolts from the sky but he will lead you. He loves you and wants you in his kingdom, He will not lead his children astray.
Give it a go Kenny
God bless you

As far as me needing to have an open heart, if my heart were closed; if I were the type of person who is not open to the possibility that I could be wrong, I would still be Christian.
You might have noticed if you’ve read some of my responses; I do have some knowledge of Christianity. That is because I spent much of the first half of my life as a Christian. I wasn’t what you might call “saved”, but I was a believer and I was waiting to get saved, and most who knew me believed I was saved.
I eventually tried to get saved by praying to God, reading and studying the bible, and asking God to save me. This didn’t work for me, as a matter of fact it pretty much had the opposite effect. When I read what was in the Bible, I saw contradictions and a lot of other stuff that I was unaware of. When I accepted the Bible on “faith” everything was good, but as soon as I began to get knowledge, that’s when things began to go wrong for me, and my sceptical mind and open heart is what lead me away from Christianity.

As far as your challenge, I have already done that and then some. I spent years trying to find God; when I felt my faith began to fade, it scared me! I was looking for any excuse to continue believing because I had so much of my life invested in Christianity; that’s not something you just give up at the drop of a hat!
I know the standard response; I wasn’t sincere, I was holding to doubt or pride, I gave up too early, or that I did not do this or that right; I’ve heard them a hundred times already. The fact is; I did everything in my power, everything I knew at that time to get saved and it didn’t work for me. I don’t wanna sound rude and say “been there done that” but truth be told; I did!

As far as you praying for me; you might have to get in line for that one. Most of my family are devout Christians; I have friends I have known from my youth; people who during my Christian years became saved because I took them to my church (even though it never happened to me though I went to the same church) all these people are praying for me and have been for years. I know these people believe I am going to hell, and I know it hurts them to see me living a life outside Christianity.
In all sincerity; there is a part of me that wish Christianity made sense to me; that it was actually real and I would be able to believe it, because I know how happy it would make my loved ones feel to believe their prayers have been answered, I would love to be able to do this for them because I love these people dearly. But to do this I would have to lie or deceive them and that would be the worst thing I could ever do to them.

Your prayers are appreciated because I know your heart is in the right place; for that I thank-you.

Ken
PS Excuse my ignorance of slang; but what’s a “mickey”?

[Silvertusk]

Come on guys! Kenny didn't just fall off the turnip truck! It's going to take a lot more than common sense and logic to convince Kenny.

Thank-you!

Ken

Ohh Kenny
That is what you call a back-handed comment that Rick made. He was being facetious.
I am sarcastic and a smart-a** but I'm not too fond of seeing people have the mickey taken outta them.
I have prayed for you ken and I'm going to continue.
It is not your lack of intelligence or logic that is stumbling you. If all it took was the smarts and a theory we would have a considerably larger, highly intelligent christian family! It is not your mind but your spirit that will lead you to Christ. But you have to be willing. You can have a sceptical mind but you must have an open heart.
Why not give it a go, what do you have to lose? Let's say we're wrong then you are no worse off but if we're right think about what you have to gain. Theoretically if God exists, think about for a moment what that means to you, your life, spirit and your future, would you want to be on the unbelieving side of that coin?
I have a challenge for you, ask Him!
You can be sceptical but you must have sincerity. If you ask " yeah so show me God" all the while in the back of your mind thinking "crock of baloney" of course that will get you no-where, and im sure you can see why. But if you say something along the lines of "God, I don't know if your real or not but I'm willing to find out, I want the truth and if that lies within you then please show me"
Don't expect lightning bolts from the sky but he will lead you. He loves you and wants you in his kingdom, He will not lead his children astray.
Give it a go Kenny
God bless you

As far as me needing to have an open heart, if my heart were closed; if I were the type of person who is not open to the possibility that I could be wrong, I would still be Christian.
You might have noticed if you’ve read some of my responses; I do have some knowledge of Christianity. That is because I spent much of the first half of my life as a Christian. I wasn’t what you might call “saved”, but I was a believer and I was waiting to get saved, and most who knew me believed I was saved.
I eventually tried to get saved by praying to God, reading and studying the bible, and asking God to save me. This didn’t work for me, as a matter of fact it pretty much had the opposite effect. When I read what was in the Bible, I saw contradictions and a lot of other stuff that I was unaware of. When I accepted the Bible on “faith” everything was good, but as soon as I began to get knowledge, that’s when things began to go wrong for me, and my sceptical mind and open heart is what lead me away from Christianity.

As far as your challenge, I have already done that and then some. I spent years trying to find God; when I felt my faith began to fade, it scared me! I was looking for any excuse to continue believing because I had so much of my life invested in Christianity; that’s not something you just give up at the drop of a hat!
I know the standard response; I wasn’t sincere, I was holding to doubt or pride, I gave up too early, or that I did not do this or that right; I’ve heard them a hundred times already. The fact is; I did everything in my power, everything I knew at that time to get saved and it didn’t work for me. I don’t wanna sound rude and say “been there done that” but truth be told; I did!

As far as you praying for me; you might have to get in line for that one. Most of my family are devout Christians; I have friends I have known from my youth; people who during my Christian years became saved because I took them to my church (even though it never happened to me though I went to the same church) all these people are praying for me and have been for years. I know these people believe I am going to hell, and I know it hurts them to see me living a life outside Christianity.
In all sincerity; there is a part of me that wish Christianity made sense to me; that it was actually real and I would be able to believe it, because I know how happy it would make my loved ones feel to believe their prayers have been answered, I would love to be able to do this for them because I love these people dearly. But to do this I would have to lie or deceive them and that would be the worst thing I could ever do to them.

Your prayers are appreciated because I know your heart is in the right place; for that I thank-you.

Ken
PS Excuse my ignorance of slang; but what’s a “mickey”?

Thanks for being honest there Kenny. A question though - if you have decided Christianity is not for you then why are you on this forum?

Also what contradictions are you referring to?

Why did you ask to be saved? Didn't you know that if you believe in Jesus you are saved?

Sorry for all the questions.

[Kenny]

Silvertusk

Thanks for being honest there Kenny. A question though - if you have decided Christianity is not for you then why are you on this forum?

Also what contradictions are you referring to?

Why did you ask to be saved? Didn't you know that if you believe in Jesus you are saved?

Sorry for all the questions


Ken
No problem! I love questions. There is a curiosity about what Christians believe today; Christianity is an evolving religion; what is believed by most today wasn’t necessarily believed by most yesterday and visa versa. Things are a bit different than when I was a believer, and I find it interesting how things have changed.
But the main reason I joined this forum is because I saw many unchallenged hostile claims voiced about non-believers and I felt a need to give an alternative point of view.

Some of the contradictions I notice at that time included the creation sequence and the story of Job. (There were others but these two stuck out in my mind as causing me to really think about what I really believe.) For the creation story it goes something like:
Day 1 God created light and separated it from darkness; naming them day and night.
Day 2 God created the firmament
Day 3 God separated land from water, and created plants
Day 4 God created the planets, stars, sun and moon
He then continued creating until resting on the seventh.
After each day it said “the evening and the morning it was the 1st day, 2nd day,3rd day, etc.
My problem was what we call morning is when the light from the Sun becomes visible from where we stand; and we call evening when the light from the Sun becomes hidden via the rotation of the Earth. So how can you have an evening and morning for the first 3 days when the Sun wasn’t even created until the 4th day?

The problem I had with Job was Satan basically offering a challenge to God that he could cause Job to stumble if he could have his way with him. Now Satan knows God knows everything, and Satan also knows that God will only tell the truth! So all God has to do at this time is tell Satan that even if he were given the opportunity, he would not be able to cause Job to stray; and Satan would know this is the truth and the conversation would be over. Instead God accepted the challenge which lead to the suffering of an innocent man and the death of his innocent children. I realize he was able to have more children, but children are not like cattle; you don’t fix it by having more. I didn’t think it was fair for those children to die for such a cause.
There were more but those 2 really stuck out for me and had an effect on me.

As far as asking to be saved; I was going by what others in the Church said they did to get saved; they asked Jesus to come into their lives, prayed the “sinners prayer” etc, etc. Yeah they say all you need to do is believe but when you listen to their experience; it appears there is a lot more involved than just believing. I mean even Satan believes; obviously he isn’t saved; and I believed all my life and I wasn’t saved, so I attempted what seemed to work for everyone else.

Hope that answered your questions.

Ken

[melanie]

Come on guys! Kenny didn't just fall off the turnip truck! It's going to take a lot more than common sense and logic to convince Kenny.

Thank-you!

Ken

Ohh Kenny
That is what you call a back-handed comment that Rick made. He was being facetious.
I am sarcastic and a smart-a** but I'm not too fond of seeing people have the mickey taken outta them.
I have prayed for you ken and I'm going to continue.
It is not your lack of intelligence or logic that is stumbling you. If all it took was the smarts and a theory we would have a considerably larger, highly intelligent christian family! It is not your mind but your spirit that will lead you to Christ. But you have to be willing. You can have a sceptical mind but you must have an open heart.
Why not give it a go, what do you have to lose? Let's say we're wrong then you are no worse off but if we're right think about what you have to gain. Theoretically if God exists, think about for a moment what that means to you, your life, spirit and your future, would you want to be on the unbelieving side of that coin?
I have a challenge for you, ask Him!
You can be sceptical but you must have sincerity. If you ask " yeah so show me God" all the while in the back of your mind thinking "crock of baloney" of course that will get you no-where, and im sure you can see why. But if you say something along the lines of "God, I don't know if your real or not but I'm willing to find out, I want the truth and if that lies within you then please show me"
Don't expect lightning bolts from the sky but he will lead you. He loves you and wants you in his kingdom, He will not lead his children astray.
Give it a go Kenny
God bless you

As far as me needing to have an open heart, if my heart were closed; if I were the type of person who is not open to the possibility that I could be wrong, I would still be Christian.
You might have noticed if you’ve read some of my responses; I do have some knowledge of Christianity. That is because I spent much of the first half of my life as a Christian. I wasn’t what you might call “saved”, but I was a believer and I was waiting to get saved, and most who knew me believed I was saved.
I eventually tried to get saved by praying to God, reading and studying the bible, and asking God to save me. This didn’t work for me, as a matter of fact it pretty much had the opposite effect. When I read what was in the Bible, I saw contradictions and a lot of other stuff that I was unaware of. When I accepted the Bible on “faith” everything was good, but as soon as I began to get knowledge, that’s when things began to go wrong for me, and my sceptical mind and open heart is what lead me away from Christianity.

As far as your challenge, I have already done that and then some. I spent years trying to find God; when I felt my faith began to fade, it scared me! I was looking for any excuse to continue believing because I had so much of my life invested in Christianity; that’s not something you just give up at the drop of a hat!
I know the standard response; I wasn’t sincere, I was holding to doubt or pride, I gave up too early, or that I did not do this or that right; I’ve heard them a hundred times already. The fact is; I did everything in my power, everything I knew at that time to get saved and it didn’t work for me. I don’t wanna sound rude and say “been there done that” but truth be told; I did!

As far as you praying for me; you might have to get in line for that one. Most of my family are devout Christians; I have friends I have known from my youth; people who during my Christian years became saved because I took them to my church (even though it never happened to me though I went to the same church) all these people are praying for me and have been for years. I know these people believe I am going to hell, and I know it hurts them to see me living a life outside Christianity.
In all sincerity; there is a part of me that wish Christianity made sense to me; that it was actually real and I would be able to believe it, because I know how happy it would make my loved ones feel to believe their prayers have been answered, I would love to be able to do this for them because I love these people dearly. But to do this I would have to lie or deceive them and that would be the worst thing I could ever do to them.

Your prayers are appreciated because I know your heart is in the right place; for that I thank-you.

Ken
PS Excuse my ignorance of slang; but what’s a “mickey”?

Thanks Kenny
I really appreciated your response, it gave me insight and understanding. I did not mean to assume that you hadn't had a Christian background, thanks for clearing that up.
I would never assume that you have not been sincere, or have had too much pride or doubt, that you gave up or just couldn't and didn't it "right" I get that is a standard response, but I don't think that is the case.
I can draw from your experience some similarities with my own. I had questions, many many questions. I believed, I had some experiences that convinced me of that but I didn't want to just know God, I wanted to understand Him. I saw what I thought contradicted my relationship and knowledge of God in the bible, and I wanted to know why, why would God do this or that, the thought of a hell that took the souls of many didn't sit well with me, how could a person who had never been exposed to Christianity but were really decent kind-hearted people be subjected to damnation, it didn't seem fair. I have always had a very strong inclination towards what I thought was fair and just. I didn't question his existence but more so his motives. So in this sense I believed, I had faith but I lacked trust.
And I was angry at Him, I believed so much, convinced time and time again he would protect me and change my situation, I prayed with earnest and when I was younger with trust but nothing ever changed. You know one day my sister and I were lying in a paddock, clear blue sky and we were praying, God looked on us that day and knew that the next day the police would take us away from our mum and back to our nightmare and he couldn't change it but he could give us hope, in that sky with no planes or clouds we saw JESUS written above our heads, perfectly formed and really big. It did give me hope, it devastated my sister as she thought it meant that everything was going to be okay, I wasn't sure but I knew it meant that He was there, He was listening and that He loved us.
But over time, with one hard blow after another, I felt let down and abandoned. I was like insolent child upset and angry with their parent. God would try and pull me closer and I would push Him away, I spent many years playing "tug of war" with God. I would rebuild my faith then slip away again.

The "church" didn't really work for me. I didn't fit in and didn't really want to. Everyone was telling each other the right way to be, the right way to act but never really following it themselves. It was a world of spit-polished shoes, good Sunday attire, 'Jesus loves you' bumper stickers and after service gatherings with cups of tea and sponge cake and polite chit chat. It felt so contrived. Christians in the company of other Christians want to be seen as good and decent, to the point of playing charades. Nobody wanted to admit that sometimes we are all just really bloody hopeless at it, that despite our best efforts we sometimes just suck at being "Christian" I didn't want to be told I wasn't doing it right either I needed to be told that we all stink at this sometimes.
There came a time not too long ago I realised I didn't have to please anybody, I didn't have to the perfect picture of a "good" Christian woman, I didn't have to conform to the church or what others thought I should be like and God didn't want me too. He just wanted me to trust Him, and let Him work in me. You know what I still don't fit in, and I still kinda suck at it sometimes but that's okay because now I'm content and I have belief, faith and trust.
The thing that changed it for me was after playing "tug of war" for so long with God, I pushed Him too far away and my life spiritually and otherwise spiralled out of control, I had been treading water for so long but this time I was sinking and sinking fast then My Father reached in and plucked me out of that muddy water and embraced me, this time I didn't fight Him, I couldn't, I didn't have any fight left in me. I just let Him cradle me and surrendered. I gave what was left of this broken, stubborn, screwed up girl and said "Father I'm yours, I am nothing without you, I can't do this thing called life on my own, I need you" it took time to work through my shame, and sorrow, regret and disappointment in myself but we got there together. Then he started working in me in a way that I had never experienced before, my spirit is full and my heart is rejoicing, and I trust Him wholeheartedly.
Ken I'm quite convinced that this had to be my path, I had to reach rock bottom to sail to new heights. I had believed, gone to church but it just wasn't my time to return his embrace, but he waited, never leaving my side, when I took my eye of the prize He never did, I just couldn't see it at the time because I was too busy treading water.

My point is Ken, maybe it just hasn't been your time, not because you couldn't just get it right but because it simply has not been your path yet. You say you have asked God and got no response, but yet here we are discussing Him on a Christian forum, just maybe Ken he is guiding you but you have been too busy playing 'tug of war' to notice. 'Something' brings you on here, and keeps you coming back, 'something' is driving all those questions instead of just washing your hands of this God-talk completely, 'something' compels you to engage in spiritual conversation, I'm sure you tell yourself it's your sceptical mind, but maybe it's the opposite, just maybe that 'something' is God. Maybe if you didn't push back quite so hard when He tries to pull you closer, you could get close enough to see Him guiding and leading you.
Maybe Kenny you are on your path to God, some of us just take a bit more time and are a bit more stubborn

[Kenny]

[Thanks Kenny
I really appreciated your response, it gave me insight and understanding. I did not mean to assume that you hadn't had a Christian background, thanks for clearing that up.
I would never assume that you have not been sincere, or have had too much pride or doubt, that you gave up or just couldn't and didn't it "right" I get that is a standard response, but I don't think that is the case.
I can draw from your experience some similarities with my own. I had questions, many many questions. I believed, I had some experiences that convinced me of that but I didn't want to just know God, I wanted to understand Him. I saw what I thought contradicted my relationship and knowledge of God in the bible, and I wanted to know why, why would God do this or that, the thought of a hell that took the souls of many didn't sit well with me, how could a person who had never been exposed to Christianity but were really decent kind-hearted people be subjected to damnation, it didn't seem fair. I have always had a very strong inclination towards what I thought was fair and just. I didn't question his existence but more so his motives. So in this sense I believed, I had faith but I lacked trust.
And I was angry at Him, I believed so much, convinced time and time again he would protect me and change my situation, I prayed with earnest and when I was younger with trust but nothing ever changed. You know one day my sister and I were lying in a paddock, clear blue sky and we were praying, God looked on us that day and knew that the next day the police would take us away from our mum and back to our nightmare and he couldn't change it but he could give us hope, in that sky with no planes or clouds we saw JESUS written above our heads, perfectly formed and really big. It did give me hope, it devastated my sister as she thought it meant that everything was going to be okay, I wasn't sure but I knew it meant that He was there, He was listening and that He loved us.
But over time, with one hard blow after another, I felt let down and abandoned. I was like insolent child upset and angry with their parent. God would try and pull me closer and I would push Him away, I spent many years playing "tug of war" with God. I would rebuild my faith then slip away again.

The "church" didn't really work for me. I didn't fit in and didn't really want to. Everyone was telling each other the right way to be, the right way to act but never really following it themselves. It was a world of spit-polished shoes, good Sunday attire, 'Jesus loves you' bumper stickers and after service gatherings with cups of tea and sponge cake and polite chit chat. It felt so contrived. Christians in the company of other Christians want to be seen as good and decent, to the point of playing charades. Nobody wanted to admit that sometimes we are all just really bloody hopeless at it, that despite our best efforts we sometimes just suck at being "Christian" I didn't want to be told I wasn't doing it right either I needed to be told that we all stink at this sometimes.
There came a time not too long ago I realised I didn't have to please anybody, I didn't have to the perfect picture of a "good" Christian woman, I didn't have to conform to the church or what others thought I should be like and God didn't want me too. He just wanted me to trust Him, and let Him work in me. You know what I still don't fit in, and I still kinda suck at it sometimes but that's okay because now I'm content and I have belief, faith and trust.
The thing that changed it for me was after playing "tug of war" for so long with God, I pushed Him too far away and my life spiritually and otherwise spiralled out of control, I had been treading water for so long but this time I was sinking and sinking fast then My Father reached in and plucked me out of that muddy water and embraced me, this time I didn't fight Him, I couldn't, I didn't have any fight left in me. I just let Him cradle me and surrendered. I gave what was left of this broken, stubborn, screwed up girl and said "Father I'm yours, I am nothing without you, I can't do this thing called life on my own, I need you" it took time to work through my shame, and sorrow, regret and disappointment in myself but we got there together. Then he started working in me in a way that I had never experienced before, my spirit is full and my heart is rejoicing, and I trust Him wholeheartedly.
Ken I'm quite convinced that this had to be my path, I had to reach rock bottom to sail to new heights. I had believed, gone to church but it just wasn't my time to return his embrace, but he waited, never leaving my side, when I took my eye of the prize He never did, I just couldn't see it at the time because I was too busy treading water.

My point is Ken, maybe it just hasn't been your time, not because you couldn't just get it right but because it simply has not been your path yet. You say you have asked God and got no response, but yet here we are discussing Him on a Christian forum, just maybe Ken he is guiding you but you have been too busy playing 'tug of war' to notice. 'Something' brings you on here, and keeps you coming back, 'something' is driving all those questions instead of just washing your hands of this God-talk completely, 'something' compels you to engage in spiritual conversation, I'm sure you tell yourself it's your sceptical mind, but maybe it's the opposite, just maybe that 'something' is God. Maybe if you didn't push back quite so hard when He tries to pull you closer, you could get close enough to see Him guiding and leading you.
Maybe Kenny you are on your path to God, some of us just take a bit more time and are a bit more stubborn

Thanks for sharing your story. I do believe there are similarities with our stories, a main difference I see is when you hit rock bottom and saw no way out; God helped you and this strengthened your faith in God.
I don’t know if I have ever been in a situation that I could describe as rock bottom, but when I’ve had struggles in my life, I went to my friends, family, and loved ones for help and this strengthened my faith in my friends, family and loved ones
Thank-you again for sharing your story

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

Ken, I want you to understand that as much as we THINK we would like to God to come in like a "gang buster" into our lives, God doesn't work like that.
I had some serious issues with God, to the point of being far more against him than an atheist ( an atheist doesn't believe so his "rebellion" against God is insignificant) and all I ever wanted was for God to "show himself" to make himself know in ANY way !
I though He never did.
Then I "found Him", well, as most will tell you, He was never lost to me, I had shut Him out with what I THOUGHT He was, what I wanted Him to be so that I DIDN'T have to believe in Him, didn't WANT to believe in Him.
But Christ broke down that wall and did it in answering the one question FOR ME that I "KNEW" He could never answer.
He did and when I hear His voice I realized it had been there ALWAYS.
I realized that He had been there in my wife, in my children BUT always in ME no matter what I did, He was still there and still loved me.
It happened when I least expected and happened in the way I least expected BUT it happened.

It was always happening and I KNOW that it is happening to you too, right now, that is why you are here my brother

[Kenny]

Ken, I want you to understand that as much as we THINK we would like to God to come in like a "gang buster" into our lives, God doesn't work like that.
I had some serious issues with God, to the point of being far more against him than an atheist ( an atheist doesn't believe so his "rebellion" against God is insignificant) and all I ever wanted was for God to "show himself" to make himself know in ANY way !
I though He never did.
Then I "found Him", well, as most will tell you, He was never lost to me, I had shut Him out with what I THOUGHT He was, what I wanted Him to be so that I DIDN'T have to believe in Him, didn't WANT to believe in Him.
But Christ broke down that wall and did it in answering the one question FOR ME that I "KNEW" He could never answer.
He did and when I hear His voice I realized it had been there ALWAYS.
I realized that He had been there in my wife, in my children BUT always in ME no matter what I did, He was still there and still loved me.
It happened when I least expected and happened in the way I least expected BUT it happened.

It was always happening and I KNOW that it is happening to you too, right now, that is why you are here my brother

Thanks for your perspective

K

[melanie]

[Thanks Kenny
I really appreciated your response, it gave me insight and understanding. I did not mean to assume that you hadn't had a Christian background, thanks for clearing that up.
I would never assume that you have not been sincere, or have had too much pride or doubt, that you gave up or just couldn't and didn't it "right" I get that is a standard response, but I don't think that is the case.
I can draw from your experience some similarities with my own. I had questions, many many questions. I believed, I had some experiences that convinced me of that but I didn't want to just know God, I wanted to understand Him. I saw what I thought contradicted my relationship and knowledge of God in the bible, and I wanted to know why, why would God do this or that, the thought of a hell that took the souls of many didn't sit well with me, how could a person who had never been exposed to Christianity but were really decent kind-hearted people be subjected to damnation, it didn't seem fair. I have always had a very strong inclination towards what I thought was fair and just. I didn't question his existence but more so his motives. So in this sense I believed, I had faith but I lacked trust.
And I was angry at Him, I believed so much, convinced time and time again he would protect me and change my situation, I prayed with earnest and when I was younger with trust but nothing ever changed. You know one day my sister and I were lying in a paddock, clear blue sky and we were praying, God looked on us that day and knew that the next day the police would take us away from our mum and back to our nightmare and he couldn't change it but he could give us hope, in that sky with no planes or clouds we saw JESUS written above our heads, perfectly formed and really big. It did give me hope, it devastated my sister as she thought it meant that everything was going to be okay, I wasn't sure but I knew it meant that He was there, He was listening and that He loved us.
But over time, with one hard blow after another, I felt let down and abandoned. I was like insolent child upset and angry with their parent. God would try and pull me closer and I would push Him away, I spent many years playing "tug of war" with God. I would rebuild my faith then slip away again.

The "church" didn't really work for me. I didn't fit in and didn't really want to. Everyone was telling each other the right way to be, the right way to act but never really following it themselves. It was a world of spit-polished shoes, good Sunday attire, 'Jesus loves you' bumper stickers and after service gatherings with cups of tea and sponge cake and polite chit chat. It felt so contrived. Christians in the company of other Christians want to be seen as good and decent, to the point of playing charades. Nobody wanted to admit that sometimes we are all just really bloody hopeless at it, that despite our best efforts we sometimes just suck at being "Christian" I didn't want to be told I wasn't doing it right either I needed to be told that we all stink at this sometimes.
There came a time not too long ago I realised I didn't have to please anybody, I didn't have to the perfect picture of a "good" Christian woman, I didn't have to conform to the church or what others thought I should be like and God didn't want me too. He just wanted me to trust Him, and let Him work in me. You know what I still don't fit in, and I still kinda suck at it sometimes but that's okay because now I'm content and I have belief, faith and trust.
The thing that changed it for me was after playing "tug of war" for so long with God, I pushed Him too far away and my life spiritually and otherwise spiralled out of control, I had been treading water for so long but this time I was sinking and sinking fast then My Father reached in and plucked me out of that muddy water and embraced me, this time I didn't fight Him, I couldn't, I didn't have any fight left in me. I just let Him cradle me and surrendered. I gave what was left of this broken, stubborn, screwed up girl and said "Father I'm yours, I am nothing without you, I can't do this thing called life on my own, I need you" it took time to work through my shame, and sorrow, regret and disappointment in myself but we got there together. Then he started working in me in a way that I had never experienced before, my spirit is full and my heart is rejoicing, and I trust Him wholeheartedly.
Ken I'm quite convinced that this had to be my path, I had to reach rock bottom to sail to new heights. I had believed, gone to church but it just wasn't my time to return his embrace, but he waited, never leaving my side, when I took my eye of the prize He never did, I just couldn't see it at the time because I was too busy treading water.

My point is Ken, maybe it just hasn't been your time, not because you couldn't just get it right but because it simply has not been your path yet. You say you have asked God and got no response, but yet here we are discussing Him on a Christian forum, just maybe Ken he is guiding you but you have been too busy playing 'tug of war' to notice. 'Something' brings you on here, and keeps you coming back, 'something' is driving all those questions instead of just washing your hands of this God-talk completely, 'something' compels you to engage in spiritual conversation, I'm sure you tell yourself it's your sceptical mind, but maybe it's the opposite, just maybe that 'something' is God. Maybe if you didn't push back quite so hard when He tries to pull you closer, you could get close enough to see Him guiding and leading you.
Maybe Kenny you are on your path to God, some of us just take a bit more time and are a bit more stubborn

Thanks for sharing your story. I do believe there are similarities with our stories, a main difference I see is when you hit rock bottom and saw no way out; God helped you and this strengthened your faith in God.
I don’t know if I have ever been in a situation that I could describe as rock bottom, but when I’ve had struggles in my life, I went to my friends, family, and loved ones for help and this strengthened my faith in my friends, family and loved ones
Thank-you again for sharing your story

Ken

Friends and family have been a great support for me too, and I have been there for them also through thick and thin. There is such love and loyalty shared between family and friends that become like family, finding faith in people we count on is so important because we help lift each other up when we're feeling low and having struggles.
My rock bottom Ken was a spiritual crisis I was having, my friends and family stood by me and helped me with subsequent life issues but only my Father could help me outta this one.
I won't go into details now but if you ever want to talk Ken Im more than happy too. I can promise you 2 things I will never judge you, and I won't push my beliefs on you, that's not my style. But if you ever want to ask any questions, just want a yarn, a different perspective, a kind ear, whatever, message me or we can talk openly on here. I think maybe we could learn a bit from each other, at the very least gain a friend

[1over137]

There was a point in my life when all my family was not supportive, even opposite, many going against me.

[1over137]

Kenny, those loved ones, family and friends you went to are mostly Christians? Because you said you come from Christian background.

[Kenny]

[Thanks Kenny
I really appreciated your response, it gave me insight and understanding. I did not mean to assume that you hadn't had a Christian background, thanks for clearing that up.
I would never assume that you have not been sincere, or have had too much pride or doubt, that you gave up or just couldn't and didn't it "right" I get that is a standard response, but I don't think that is the case.
I can draw from your experience some similarities with my own. I had questions, many many questions. I believed, I had some experiences that convinced me of that but I didn't want to just know God, I wanted to understand Him. I saw what I thought contradicted my relationship and knowledge of God in the bible, and I wanted to know why, why would God do this or that, the thought of a hell that took the souls of many didn't sit well with me, how could a person who had never been exposed to Christianity but were really decent kind-hearted people be subjected to damnation, it didn't seem fair. I have always had a very strong inclination towards what I thought was fair and just. I didn't question his existence but more so his motives. So in this sense I believed, I had faith but I lacked trust.
And I was angry at Him, I believed so much, convinced time and time again he would protect me and change my situation, I prayed with earnest and when I was younger with trust but nothing ever changed. You know one day my sister and I were lying in a paddock, clear blue sky and we were praying, God looked on us that day and knew that the next day the police would take us away from our mum and back to our nightmare and he couldn't change it but he could give us hope, in that sky with no planes or clouds we saw JESUS written above our heads, perfectly formed and really big. It did give me hope, it devastated my sister as she thought it meant that everything was going to be okay, I wasn't sure but I knew it meant that He was there, He was listening and that He loved us.
But over time, with one hard blow after another, I felt let down and abandoned. I was like insolent child upset and angry with their parent. God would try and pull me closer and I would push Him away, I spent many years playing "tug of war" with God. I would rebuild my faith then slip away again.

The "church" didn't really work for me. I didn't fit in and didn't really want to. Everyone was telling each other the right way to be, the right way to act but never really following it themselves. It was a world of spit-polished shoes, good Sunday attire, 'Jesus loves you' bumper stickers and after service gatherings with cups of tea and sponge cake and polite chit chat. It felt so contrived. Christians in the company of other Christians want to be seen as good and decent, to the point of playing charades. Nobody wanted to admit that sometimes we are all just really bloody hopeless at it, that despite our best efforts we sometimes just suck at being "Christian" I didn't want to be told I wasn't doing it right either I needed to be told that we all stink at this sometimes.
There came a time not too long ago I realised I didn't have to please anybody, I didn't have to the perfect picture of a "good" Christian woman, I didn't have to conform to the church or what others thought I should be like and God didn't want me too. He just wanted me to trust Him, and let Him work in me. You know what I still don't fit in, and I still kinda suck at it sometimes but that's okay because now I'm content and I have belief, faith and trust.
The thing that changed it for me was after playing "tug of war" for so long with God, I pushed Him too far away and my life spiritually and otherwise spiralled out of control, I had been treading water for so long but this time I was sinking and sinking fast then My Father reached in and plucked me out of that muddy water and embraced me, this time I didn't fight Him, I couldn't, I didn't have any fight left in me. I just let Him cradle me and surrendered. I gave what was left of this broken, stubborn, screwed up girl and said "Father I'm yours, I am nothing without you, I can't do this thing called life on my own, I need you" it took time to work through my shame, and sorrow, regret and disappointment in myself but we got there together. Then he started working in me in a way that I had never experienced before, my spirit is full and my heart is rejoicing, and I trust Him wholeheartedly.
Ken I'm quite convinced that this had to be my path, I had to reach rock bottom to sail to new heights. I had believed, gone to church but it just wasn't my time to return his embrace, but he waited, never leaving my side, when I took my eye of the prize He never did, I just couldn't see it at the time because I was too busy treading water.

My point is Ken, maybe it just hasn't been your time, not because you couldn't just get it right but because it simply has not been your path yet. You say you have asked God and got no response, but yet here we are discussing Him on a Christian forum, just maybe Ken he is guiding you but you have been too busy playing 'tug of war' to notice. 'Something' brings you on here, and keeps you coming back, 'something' is driving all those questions instead of just washing your hands of this God-talk completely, 'something' compels you to engage in spiritual conversation, I'm sure you tell yourself it's your sceptical mind, but maybe it's the opposite, just maybe that 'something' is God. Maybe if you didn't push back quite so hard when He tries to pull you closer, you could get close enough to see Him guiding and leading you.
Maybe Kenny you are on your path to God, some of us just take a bit more time and are a bit more stubborn

Thanks for sharing your story. I do believe there are similarities with our stories, a main difference I see is when you hit rock bottom and saw no way out; God helped you and this strengthened your faith in God.
I don’t know if I have ever been in a situation that I could describe as rock bottom, but when I’ve had struggles in my life, I went to my friends, family, and loved ones for help and this strengthened my faith in my friends, family and loved ones
Thank-you again for sharing your story

Ken

Friends and family have been a great support for me too, and I have been there for them also through thick and thin. There is such love and loyalty shared between family and friends that become like family, finding faith in people we count on is so important because we help lift each other up when we're feeling low and having struggles.
My rock bottom Ken was a spiritual crisis I was having, my friends and family stood by me and helped me with subsequent life issues but only my Father could help me outta this one.
I won't go into details now but if you ever want to talk Ken Im more than happy too. I can promise you 2 things I will never judge you, and I won't push my beliefs on you, that's not my style. But if you ever want to ask any questions, just want a yarn, a different perspective, a kind ear, whatever, message me or we can talk openly on here. I think maybe we could learn a bit from each other, at the very least gain a friend

Thank-you I really appreciate that.

Ken

[Kenny]

Kenny, those loved ones, family and friends you went to are mostly Christians? Because you said you come from Christian background.

Yes they are Christian.

Ken

[1over137]

Kenny, those loved ones, family and friends you went to are mostly Christians? Because you said you come from Christian background.

Yes they are Christian.

Ken

What a gift from God to you.