Pope says no personal relationship with Jesus

[Stu]

This man has not read his Bible properly, this is outright blasphemy.

Church is essential for faith; there are no 'free agents,' pope says

Christians are not made in a laboratory, but in a community called the church, Pope Francis said.
At his weekly general audience Wednesday, Pope Francis continued his series of audience talks about the church, telling an estimated 33,000 people that there is no such thing as "do-it-yourself" Christians or "free agents" when it comes to faith.

Every Christian, he said, can trace his or her faith back to parents, grandparents, teachers or friends. "I always remember the nun who taught me catechism. I know she's in heaven because she was a holy woman," he said.

In the Old Testament, the pope said, God called Abraham and began to form a people that would become a blessing for the world. "With great patience -- and God has a lot of it -- he prepared the people of the ancient covenant and in Jesus Christ constituted them as a sign and instrument of the union of humanity with God and unity with one another."

Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

Obviously, he said, it is not always easy to walk the path of faith with other people. "Sometimes it's tiring. It can happen that a brother or sister creates problems for us or scandalizes us, but the Lord entrusted his message of salvation to human beings, to us, to witnesses," he said.

"It is through our brothers and sisters with their gifts and their limits," the pope said, "that he comes to us and makes himself known. This is what belonging to the church means. Remember: Being Christian means belonging to the church. If your first name is Christian, your last name is Member of the Church."

At the end of his talk, the pope asked people to join him in praying that they would never "give into the temptation of thinking you can do without others, without the church, that you can save yourself, of thinking you can be a laboratory Christian."

Christians, he said, are not manufactured in isolation, but belong to a long line of believers who handed on the faith and challenged one another to live it fully.

The audience was the last the pope was scheduled to hold before beginning a reduced summer schedule.

[PaulSacramento]

The "church" is the body of Christ, not an institution mind you BUT all believers at any ( and all) given time.
He is right that there is no such thing as "do-it-yourself" Christians because, by the very nature of being a Christian we openly admit that we can NOT do it ourselves but need the Grace of God by Jesus Christ through the HS that anoints Us and makes us part of the church/body of Christ.

Where he is wrong is in stating that one can't have a personal relationship with Christ without the church.
Indeed one must FIRST have a personal relationship with Christ BEFORE He/She can truly be part of the body of Christ.

NO ONE needs the mediation of ANYONE other than Jesus Christ, period.

[1over137]

Does that mean that when I read Bible and pray, and try to be better person with God's help, I do hot have direct relationship with Jesus? I doubt that.

Also, that you have HS only when in church? I doubt that.

Btw, many catholic churches here in Slovakia do not have Bible study.

[PaulSacramento]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

[1over137]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

Well, there is also Hebrews 10:24-25

[SeekingSanctuary]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

Well, there is also Hebrews 10:24-25

A great benefit from being with fellow worshipers and needing someone to tell you what God thinks are two very different things. We don't need clergy, but we do need fellow Christians.

[PaulSacramento]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

Well, there is also Hebrews 10:24-25

Note that passage mentions NOTHING of leaders ( who, according to Christ, serve rather than be served) and speaks of the importance of fellowship in strengthening and encouraging each other in difficult times.

[1over137]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

Well, there is also Hebrews 10:24-25

Note that passage mentions NOTHING of leaders ( who, according to Christ, serve rather than be served) and speaks of the importance of fellowship in strengthening and encouraging each other in difficult times.

Yes, as for leader, Bible say, they are to be servants. Matthew 20:25-28

[PaulSacramento]

The one thing that the leaders of any organized religion fear the most is the CORRECT understanding that they are NOT NEEDED !

Well, there is also Hebrews 10:24-25

Note that passage mentions NOTHING of leaders ( who, according to Christ, serve rather than be served) and speaks of the importance of fellowship in strengthening and encouraging each other in difficult times.

Yes, as for leader, Bible say, they are to be servants. Matthew 20:25-28

Yeah well, obviously that was only a suggestion on Jesus' part...

[Philip]

Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

And there we have it. Just like the Pharisees and Sadduces of Jesus' time, we have a religious organization set up to keep itself relevant, that has been historically prone to pronouncing all sorts of unBiblical and Scripturally contradicting nonsense, as if God HIMSELF had proclaimed it. And so the Popes and the CC were able to long keep it's members in the dark due to the lack of literacy, non-availability of Bibles (in languages that the common folks could read), and with the fear of expulsion that would "damn their very souls." Sadly, millions of Catholics still don't realize the difference between many CC teachings and what the Bible actually says. And many confuse equating membership in the CC with being a Christian. And so many Catholics are afraid that if they question various teachings of the Catholic Church, EVEN IF they appear to contradict the canon of Scripture completed by the end of the first century, then it is as if they are refusing to obey God Himself. So in millions of Catholics minds, to leave the CC would be the same as renouncing Christianity.

My wife's family are almost to a one, Catholic. They all think that they are saved because they were baptized into the CC when they were a week old. But except for my MIL, who was recently led to Christ by her son, the rest have never done what Jesus and the Apostle said one MUST do to be saved. And while what they need to do is very simple, in heart, words, repentance and faith, yet they are blinded by the man-made assertions of the CC. So very sad.

[PaulSacramento]

Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

And there we have it. Just like the Pharisees and Sadduces of Jesus' time, we have a religious organization set up to keep itself relevant, that has been historically prone to pronouncing all sorts of unBiblical and Scripturally contradicting nonsense, as if God HIMSELF had proclaimed it. And so the Popes and the CC were able to long keep it's members in the dark due to the lack of literacy, non-availability of Bibles (in languages that the common folks could read), and with the fear of expulsion that would "damn their very souls." Sadly, millions of Catholics still don't realize the difference between many CC teachings and what the Bible actually says. And many confuse equating membership in the CC with being a Christian. And so many Catholics are afraid that if they question various teachings of the Catholic Church, EVEN IF they appear to contradict the canon of Scripture completed by the end of the first century, then it is as if they are refusing to obey God Himself. So in millions of Catholics minds, to leave the CC would be the same as renouncing Christianity.

My wife's family are almost to a one, Catholic. They all think that they are saved because they were baptized into the CC when they were a week old. But except for my MIL, who was recently led to Christ by her son, the rest have never done what Jesus and the Apostle said one MUST do to be saved. And while what they need to do is very simple, in heart, words, repentance and faith, yet they are blinded by the man-made assertions of the CC. So very sad.

I would simply state that not all Catholics ARE RC.
Old Catholics do NOT accept the authority of the Pope and the RCC, though they share many of the same doctrines.

It has been my experince that in every demonination of Christainity, the different doctrines are based on different interpretations of scripture and NOT on "unbiblical foundations".

[PaulSacramento]

My wife's family are almost to a one, Catholic. They all think that they are saved because they were baptized into the CC when they were a week old. But except for my MIL, who was recently led to Christ by her son, the rest have never done what Jesus and the Apostle said one MUST do to be saved. And while what they need to do is very simple, in heart, words, repentance and faith, yet they are blinded by the man-made assertions of the CC. So very sad.

Can you clear up what you mean here?
What MUST they do to be saved?

[Philip]

It has been my experince that in every demonination of Christainity, the different doctrines are based on different interpretations of scripture and NOT on "unbiblical foundations".

So, on key doctrinal, salvational issues, are we saying that there are MULTIPLE meanings to all of these things, and so we are to just choose OUR preferred meanings? As if an interpretation is WRONG, then that means it is also Biblically wrong and not as God so intended. There is a world of assertions about whom God is and what He requires. If there is not a correct understanding or it is unknowable as to how to be saved, then it really doesn't matter which meanings we cherry pick, as, at best, it would just be an educated guess. But if there is a plain understanding from Scripture as to how one is to be saved, then that is DEFINITIVE and it is crucial that we do what God says we must to do so. And Scripture abundantly asserts they key (all very simple) things that God requires of us for His salvation - and they all have to do with our minds, hearts, attitudes and intentions towards Him. And not one of them mentions simply joining a church (ANY church!) or one's baptism as a child. They all involved intentional matters of the mind and heart in obedience to the Gospel message - meaning one must understand it to obey it (which an infant cannot do).

Can you clear up what you mean here? What MUST they do to be saved?

Sure!

Repent (This is recognition that we are sinners and need the salvation that God requires for entrance into an eternity in Heaven)
"37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37-38)

"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)

Believe
29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16: 29-31)

But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.
"23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, 24 “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1: 23-24)

Belief in not just Who Jesus is, but it's a belief that confesses and believes in the historical truth of His Resurrection
"... because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11)

It's an ACTIVE faith
"Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

[PaulSacramento]

So, on key doctrinal, salvational issues, are we saying that there are MULTIPLE meanings to all of these things, and so we are to just choose OUR preferred meanings? As if an interpretation is WRONG, then that means it is also Biblically wrong and not as God so intended. There is a world of assertions about whom God is and what He requires. If there is not a correct understanding or it is unknowable as to how to be saved, then it really doesn't matter which meanings we cherry pick, as, at best, it would just be an educated guess. But if there is a plain understanding from Scripture as to how one is to be saved, then that is DEFINITIVE and it is crucial that we do what God says we must to do so. And Scripture abundantly asserts they key (all very simple) things that God requires of us for His salvation - and they all have to do with our minds, hearts, attitudes and intentions towards Him. And not one of them mentions simply joining a church or one's baptism as a child. They all involved intentional matters of the mind and heart in obedience to the Gospel message - meaning one must understand it to obey it (which an infant cannot do).

I agree that there are some (thankfully most of the important ones) that are very clear and pretty much unanimous across the board.
Most doctrinal issues are not based on salvation per say BUT some are based on WHO is and WHY ( Such as Calvinism for example).
Minor (?) ones such as divorce are interpretative for example, same as original sin and the last days and so forth.

[PaulSacramento]

Can you clear up what you mean here? What MUST they do to be saved?

Sure!

Repent (This is recognition that we are sinners and need the salvation that God requires for entrance into an eternity in Heaven)
"37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37-38)

"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)

Believe
29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16: 29-31)

But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.
"23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, 24 “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1: 23-24)

Belief in not just Who Jesus is, but it's a belief that confesses and believes in the historical truth of His Resurrection
"... because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11)

It's an ACTIVE faith
"Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Now that begs the question of WHEN one does that and at what stages they are done and IF they are ever fully done, right?