Pope says no personal relationship with Jesus

[RickD]

Philip: But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.

Rick: There are not different kinds of belief/faith. Of course if a believer continues to abide in Christ, one will want to follow Christ. That's discipleship. That's not salvation.

Yes there ARE different kinds of belief - as I noted, even demons believe Jesus is God. Millions believe He was a historical figure, but they don't believe in WHO He is and what He did at the cross. Millions believe Jesus was a good, moral teacher, but they don't revere Him as God. This is what I meant.

Philip: And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!).

Rick: Salvation is by God's grace, through faith/trust in Christ. It's simple. Don't make it complicated. We need to be careful saying salvation comes only if we obey. That would mean salvation was dependent on how we obey. That's a works based salvation.

Rick: Maybe you don't mean it that way, but as it was written, it looks like a works based salvation.

Rick, you can either agree with what the Scriptures I used say, or not. What do they SAY? Does man have a decision to make or not? Must they believe Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead, or not? Must they repent of their sins, or not? Must they trust Him to save them, or not? Don't confuse "Lordship" salvation (abundantly and appropriately discredited in this forum) with what I'm asserting here - which is what I think you are doing. And you know my history of posts well enough to know that I totally agree that 1) no one can come to Christ in their own power and 2) that God guides those WILLING and who are obedient to His words and prompting. Our only real role is to be willing and then obedient to God's prompting. SAVING belief and salvation are SIMULTANEOUS. But is there a SEQUENCE to what happens BEFORE those! Of course, God's Spirit's prompting and wooing precede salvation. Also, HEARING the Gospel message and THEN positively responding to it, through faith - and at that VERY moment - one is saved.

God makes the ENTIRE salvation process POSSIBLE and He guides it along the way. And at ANY stage BEFORE salvation one can fall away and reject God's Spirit. But IF you believe God does it ALL - that He FORCES one to either belief or non-belief, then you are right there with the Five Point Calvinists and you abundantly contradict many Scriptures. And FORCED love is not love at all. It's an arbitrary, one-sided, manufactured love. But God didn't do that. And so there ARE things that God requires of a man so that HE can save us with HIS Spirit's prompting, wooing, all the way to salvation.

But as to whether one can be saved and have a relationship with Christ WITHOUT ANY ongoing mediation (outside of preaching the Gospel BEFORE salvation) is absolutely false!

Philip,

I don't want to derail this thread. I have no problem discussing this though. I'll leave it up to you to split the thread if you want to continue discussing this.

[PaulSacramento]

The issue is that he stated that we need a mediator and that mediator is the church.It isn't, it is Christ and the ONLY way for Him to mediate for Us IS to have a personal relationship with Him.

No, that is not the issue at all. That's a complete misunderstanding of the type of mediator Christ is. He is the the only mediator in matters of salvation, yes. But where does it say he's the sole mediator in matters of prayers and fellowship? In fact I could cite dozens of verses that say otherwise.

I have no other mediator than Christ in ALL that I do.
I came to believe in Christ NOT because of the RCC ( or any organized religion) bit in spite of it.
Now, I still call myself a catholic because I believe in the Universal Church and that ALL have the chance for redemption and salvation in Christ, I am a baptized RC by the way.
The issues I have with the corporate RCC are what keep me from being a RC.

In terms of prayers and fellowship:
I Pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by the HS and through Him I pray to Our Father. My prayers are NOT set, they are not a ritual. When I pray I SPEAK and LISTEN to My Lord and that is the only way I pray.
I have fellowship with ALL who believe that Christ is Our Lord and Saviour, even those non-mainstream and even non-Christian because My Lord reminds me always to "love and pray for all".

I don't accept ANYONE telling me that I need someone other than Christ to guide me in regards to my Faith, sorry.

[Byblos]

The issue is that he stated that we need a mediator and that mediator is the church.It isn't, it is Christ and the ONLY way for Him to mediate for Us IS to have a personal relationship with Him.

No, that is not the issue at all. That's a complete misunderstanding of the type of mediator Christ is. He is the the only mediator in matters of salvation, yes. But where does it say he's the sole mediator in matters of prayers and fellowship? In fact I could cite dozens of verses that say otherwise.

I have no other mediator than Christ in ALL that I do.
I came to believe in Christ NOT because of the RCC ( or any organized religion) bit in spite of it.
Now, I still call myself a catholic because I believe in the Universal Church and that ALL have the chance for redemption and salvation in Christ, I am a baptized RC by the way.
The issues I have with the corporate RCC are what keep me from being a RC.

In terms of prayers and fellowship:
I Pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by the HS and through Him I pray to Our Father. My prayers are NOT set, they are not a ritual. When I pray I SPEAK and LISTEN to My Lord and that is the only way I pray.
I have fellowship with ALL who believe that Christ is Our Lord and Saviour, even those non-mainstream and even non-Christian because My Lord reminds me always to "love and pray for all".

I don't accept ANYONE telling me that I need someone other than Christ to guide me in regards to my Faith, sorry.

That's just an emotional response Paul and only because the source is the RCC and the Pope in particular. I bet you dollars to donuts if it were anyone other than the Pope, a prominent preacher perhaps, that uttered those words he'd be applauded (at least he ought to be). Like I said, take away the theological differences and that's the only way it can be seen.

We do not live in a vacuum Paul. Our history, our very identity as Christians is as part of a community of believers. IMHO that and only that was the Pope's message.

[PaulSacramento]

The issue is that he stated that we need a mediator and that mediator is the church.It isn't, it is Christ and the ONLY way for Him to mediate for Us IS to have a personal relationship with Him.

No, that is not the issue at all. That's a complete misunderstanding of the type of mediator Christ is. He is the the only mediator in matters of salvation, yes. But where does it say he's the sole mediator in matters of prayers and fellowship? In fact I could cite dozens of verses that say otherwise.

I have no other mediator than Christ in ALL that I do.
I came to believe in Christ NOT because of the RCC ( or any organized religion) bit in spite of it.
Now, I still call myself a catholic because I believe in the Universal Church and that ALL have the chance for redemption and salvation in Christ, I am a baptized RC by the way.
The issues I have with the corporate RCC are what keep me from being a RC.

In terms of prayers and fellowship:
I Pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by the HS and through Him I pray to Our Father. My prayers are NOT set, they are not a ritual. When I pray I SPEAK and LISTEN to My Lord and that is the only way I pray.
I have fellowship with ALL who believe that Christ is Our Lord and Saviour, even those non-mainstream and even non-Christian because My Lord reminds me always to "love and pray for all".

I don't accept ANYONE telling me that I need someone other than Christ to guide me in regards to my Faith, sorry.

That's just an emotional response Paul and only because the source is the RCC and the Pope in particular. I bet you dollars to donuts if it were anyone other than the Pope, a prominent preacher perhaps, that uttered those words he'd be applauded (at least he ought to be). Like I said, take away the theological differences and that's the only way it can be seen.

We do not live in a vacuum Paul. Our history, our very identity as Christians is as part of a community of believers. IMHO that and only that was the Pope's message.

Bylbo, ANY preacher of ANY denomination stating that:
"dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church.
would get the same response from me and yes it is an emotional one BUT also a sound one theologically speaking (IMO).
We CAN have a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Christ without communion and/or mediation of the church, as a matter of fact I submit that one's DIRECT relationship with Christ can even be hindered by the church at times ( I think we have all seen this).

[Philip]

Philip, I don't want to derail this thread. I have no problem discussing this though. I'll leave it up to you to split the thread if you want to continue discussing this.

So shocking that anyone would derail a thread around here .

No, Rick, I've no need to further comment on this here. But it really IS very relevant to the discussion, as the very topic is about WHAT precisely it takes to have a "personal relationship" with Christ, as well as what it does not. In fact, Catholics will often even challenge this, saying, "Where does it say that in the Bible?" So, I've merely shown what the Scriptures say about salvation. Anyone claiming that they don't have to - yes, "DO," what the quoted verses say - simply doesn't believe them, as they are clear. And the "doing" simply involves turning to Jesus in mind, heart, attitude, faith, repentance and commitment to Him - as that is what the sum of the Scriptures on the topic add up to. And while "Lordship Salvation" is a sad perversion of the relevant verses on this matter, for anyone to suggest that asserting one MUST affirm and comply (in heart and mind) to their message has anything to do with Lordship Salvation or legalism is to not understand important nuances that distinguish true doctrine from heresy. Simply put, Lordship Salvation goes FAR beyond simple, child-like faith and repentance, to works-based legalism - a tragic snare for Believers and preventive blockage for unbelievers. And Christ saves us WHERE we are at that moment of sincere repentance, belief and faith. Santification is the process of learning to make Jesus Lord. But if one didn't have to DO or know what is required of them by God for salvation, then why the Great Commission, why such exhauative preaching on those foundational principles by the Apostles? Why would one have to HEAR the Gospel before they can be saved (post Jesus)?

[Domenic]

Does that mean that when I read Bible and pray, and try to be better person with God's help, I do hot have direct relationship with Jesus? I doubt that.

Also, that you have HS only when in church? I doubt that.

Btw, many catholic churches here in Slovakia do not have Bible study.

To have Bible study gives birth to questions: God is not a God of disorder, or division. There are some 3,000 different forms of Christians. Is that not disorder, and division?
Years ago I learned how to identify a false religion...I am 78, and in all of my years, i have never found a religion that is not false.
I believe in Father, his son my Lord Jesus, and fathers written word. Have you tested your religion?

[RickD]

Philip wrote:
...And the "doing" simply involves turning to Jesus in mind, heart, attitude, faith, repentance and commitment to Him - as that is what the sum of the Scriptures on the topic add up to...

And this is the part I was referring to when I said it looks like works based salvation. Believing/trusting Christ for salvation, doesn't entail commitment. Commitment comes with being a disciple, not with salvation. Believers work to commit themselves to Christ. But we do it as we work as a disciple. Commitment is a work, and that's why a commitment is not needed for salvation.

Simply trust in who Christ is, and what He has done for salvation.

[Domenic]

Philip wrote:
...And the "doing" simply involves turning to Jesus in mind, heart, attitude, faith, repentance and commitment to Him - as that is what the sum of the Scriptures on the topic add up to...

And this is the part I was referring to when I said it looks like works based salvation. Believing/trusting Christ for salvation, doesn't entail commitment. Commitment comes with being a disciple, not with salvation. Believers work to commit themselves to Christ. But we do it as we work as a disciple. Commitment is a work, and that's why a commitment is not needed for salvation.

Simply trust in who Christ is, and what He has done for salvation.

I like your statement...it opens the question: "What do Christians think Jesus did to save us?"

[Philip]

Believing/trusting Christ for salvation, doesn't entail commitment.

I disagree. It IS a committment, albeit an INITIAL, yet immature, one, a commitment that is only in its infancy, one that doesn't yet know the cost or all that is involved in more fully trusting Christ. And because it requires REPENTANCE, this is a definitive and deliberate turning - an intentional committing to someone besides self, a recognition that this Someone (Christ) calls you to repent and that you are placing your trust (FAITH!) in Him - you are recognizing His authority to require such. If that is not a committment, I'm not sure what is, as it is a definitive moment of changing and seeking to make one's will suborndinate to that of God. But again, one's initial committment is only the beginning of that. And that repentance is also a recognition of God's authority which we are submitting to out of obedience to what He has instructed.

Maybe we are having a disagreement over semantics, because I'm not suggesting that one's initial commitment to Christ requires one to make Him Lord - as that is a process. And I surely wouldn't suggest praying a simple prayer or following some "paint-by-numbers" steps magically makes one saved. You can say such a prayer and still have a heart and mind committed to ONLY self and not to Jesus.

[RickD]

Believing/trusting Christ for salvation, doesn't entail commitment.

I disagree. It IS a committment, albeit an INITIAL, yet immature, one, a commitment that is only in its infancy, one that doesn't yet know the cost or all that is involved in more fully trusting Christ. And because it requires REPENTANCE, this is a definitive and deliberate turning - an intentional committing to someone besides self, a recognition that this Someone (Christ) calls you to repent and that you are placing your trust (FAITH!) in Him - you are recognizing His authority to require such. If that is not a committment, I'm not sure what is, as it is a definitive moment of changing and seeking to make one's will suborndinate to that of God. But again, one's initial committment is only the beginning of that. And that repentance is also a recognition of God's authority which we are submitting to out of obedience to what He has instructed.

Maybe we are having a disagreement over semantics, because I'm not suggesting that one's initial commitment to Christ requires one to make Him Lord - as that is a process. And I surely wouldn't suggest praying a simple prayer or following some "paint-by-numbers" steps magically makes one saved. You can say such a prayer and still have a heart and mind committed to ONLY self and not to Jesus.

I agree salvation requires repentance. But I think we are using different definitions of repentance. Biblical repentance is not a "turning from sin". Biblical repentance is a change of mind. In simple terms, "Repent and believe" means change your mind about who Christ is and what He has done, and believe/trust in Him. Taking repentance to mean "turning from sin", makes repentance into a work. After one is saved, if one continues to abide(trust) in Christ, one will turn from sin as the Holy Spirit changes you.
metanoeō

[Philip]

Taking repentance to mean "turning from sin", makes repentance into a work.

Actually, Rick, I think we're pretty much on the same page - I think we're just meaning the same thing by saying it differently. "Turning from sin" is a heart-felt DESIRE to change so as to not continue sinning. But, obviously, this is something we cannot do on our own - and even IF we could, that would be works-based. But as for the purposes of this thread, my primary concern is for those who 1) DON'T know the Scriptures concerning what God requires for salvation, and 2) that our relationship with Christ is both personal and not dependent upon ANY mortal mediary - which is a truth that is not refuted by those bringing up intercessory prayer.

[RickD]

Taking repentance to mean "turning from sin", makes repentance into a work.

Actually, Rick, I think we're pretty much on the same page - I think we're just meaning the same thing by saying it differently. "Turning from sin" is a heart-felt DESIRE to change so as to not continue sinning. But, obviously, this is something we cannot do on our own - and even IF we could, that would be works-based. But as for the purposes of this thread, my primary concern is for those who 1) DON'T know the Scriptures concerning what God requires for salvation, and 2) that our relationship with Christ is both personal and not dependent upon ANY mortal mediary - which is a truth that is not refuted by those bringing up intercessory prayer.

Philip,

I don't disagree with that. But I just want to say that having the desire to change, comes as a believer abides in Christ. In other words, sanctification. Your post I originally questioned, seemed to put that desire to change as a prerequisite for salvation. I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Philip]

Philip,

I don't disagree with that. But I just want to say that having the desire to change, comes as a believer abides in Christ. In other words, sanctification. Your post I originally questioned, seemed to put that desire to change as a prerequisite for salvation. I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying.

Thanks, Rick. Two apparent, mutual points: "Lordship Salvation" is a false requirement for salvation, and there ARE Scriptural requirements for being saved, and they don't involve baptism by ANY church or membership in ANY denomination. And, yes, desire to change and conforming to being as Jesus desires us are part of the process and journey we take ONCE SAVED. Sometimes I really mess up and just marvel at how FAR I still have to travel down "Santification Road."