Last state worse than the first

[1over137]

Thank you guys.

[melanie]

I think that's a pretty good understanding, Lonewolf.

And I just want to add that I think the text is specifically talking about those false teachers previously mentioned in the same chapter. I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else.

In a sense are we not all teachers when we speak to others about the message of Christ. You don't have to be standing behind a pulpit to classed as such. Is that how lies and false doctrine spread? I hear a teaching, it appeals to me, I don't test the teaching against the bible or ask the guidance of the HS, so I go home and teach that doctrine to my children, who use that to establish their faith then I discuss it with my neighbour who takes an interest, then I have a word about it to my friends over lunch. I'm not standing behind a pulpit preaching but I am still teaching others a false doctrine. If is stopped with the preacher and the doctrine spread no further then it would not be so damaging, but as we have seen they spread like wildfire from one person to the next, especially in today's world where you don't even need a face just a website and/or a FB page.

[RickD]

I think that's a pretty good understanding, Lonewolf.

And I just want to add that I think the text is specifically talking about those false teachers previously mentioned in the same chapter. I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else.

In a sense are we not all teachers when we speak to others about the message of Christ. You don't have to be standing behind a pulpit to classed as such. Is that how lies and false doctrine spread? I hear a teaching, it appeals to me, I don't test the teaching against the bible or ask the guidance of the HS, so I go home and teach that doctrine to my children, who use that to establish their faith then I discuss it with my neighbour who takes an interest, then I have a word about it to my friends over lunch. I'm not standing behind a pulpit preaching but I am still teaching others a false doctrine. If is stopped with the preacher and the doctrine spread no further then it would not be so damaging, but as we have seen they spread like wildfire from one person to the next, especially in today's world where you don't even need a face just a website and/or a FB page.

Absolutely Melanie.

The reason I stated that I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else, is because 1over137(Hana) was asking about how this text was interpreted in light of osas. If we take the text in what I believe is its proper context, referring to false teachers who were never saved, osas isn't affected. But if someone were to take the text out of context, by saying it not only referred to the false teachers that the chapter has been talking about, but also to new believers for example, then it would seem osas is wrong.

So basically what I was saying to answer Hana's original question, was that if the text is read in its proper context, it doesn't refute osas.

[melanie]

I think that's a pretty good understanding, Lonewolf.

And I just want to add that I think the text is specifically talking about those false teachers previously mentioned in the same chapter. I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else.

In a sense are we not all teachers when we speak to others about the message of Christ. You don't have to be standing behind a pulpit to classed as such. Is that how lies and false doctrine spread? I hear a teaching, it appeals to me, I don't test the teaching against the bible or ask the guidance of the HS, so I go home and teach that doctrine to my children, who use that to establish their faith then I discuss it with my neighbour who takes an interest, then I have a word about it to my friends over lunch. I'm not standing behind a pulpit preaching but I am still teaching others a false doctrine. If is stopped with the preacher and the doctrine spread no further then it would not be so damaging, but as we have seen they spread like wildfire from one person to the next, especially in today's world where you don't even need a face just a website and/or a FB page.

Absolutely Melanie.

The reason I stated that I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else, is because 1over137(Hana) was asking about how this text was interpreted in light of osas. If we take the text in what I believe is its proper context, referring to false teachers who were never saved, osas isn't affected. But if someone were to take the text out of context, by saying it not only referred to the false teachers that the chapter has been talking about, but also to new believers for example, then it would seem osas is wrong.

So basically what I was saying to answer Hana's original question, was that if the text is read in its proper context, it doesn't refute osas.

I understand Rick
I previously to be truthful didn't really agree with you on osas, but when I was writing a post earlier I think I got where you were coming from, correct me if I'm wrong, but someone who truly has the HS and is saved of course can stray off their path majorly but God is still there working in them and they still have faith even if sometimes it's not always evident and God will be merciful and forgiving, which we know He is.
The difficulty arises I guess when people claim to be christian and saved but never did so with integrity or sincerity so I guess they were never really 'saved' in the first place. So perhaps 'true' believers once saved are always saved, this I believe to be true.

[RickD]

Melanie wrote:
I previously to be truthful didn't really agree with you on osas, but when I was writing a post earlier I think I got where you were coming from, correct me if I'm wrong, but someone who truly has the HS and is saved of course can stray off their path majorly but God is still there working in them and they still have faith even if sometimes it's not always evident and God will be merciful and forgiving, which we know He is.

Pretty much, yes.

The difficulty arises I guess when people claim to be christian and saved but never did so with integrity or sincerity so I guess they were never really 'saved' in the first place. So perhaps 'true' believers once saved are always saved, this I believe to be true.

I think you're almost agreeing with me. What must one do to be saved?
John 3:16

One must believe(trust) Christ for salvation. So a "true" believer is one who has trusted Christ for salvation. At that moment, one is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cannot lose salvation.

We must be cautious in judging if someone is saved by the way they act, or their fruit. Everyone grows differently as a believer. For example, one who trusted Christ could stop trusting Him, and live a life that may not produce fruit at a level that someone else may. It just means the one who doesn't continue trusting doesn't grow like he should. But since he was sealed by the Holy Spirit when he trusted Christ, he cannot lose salvation.

[1over137]

We must be cautious in judging if someone is saved by the way they act, or their fruit. Everyone grows differently as a believer. For example, one who trusted Christ could stop trusting Him, and live a life that may not produce fruit at a level that someone else may. It just means the one who doesn't continue trusting doesn't grow like he should. But since he was sealed by the Holy Spirit when he trusted Christ, he cannot lose salvation.

And I think, one cannot distinguish between such person and a person who claimed to believe but never really did.