Was Adam perfect?

[Lonewolf]

God knew that Adam would sin and He also knew that there was a plan to address the issue of "free will" and the human propensity to sin.
As for the issue of original sin, God knew that a being MUST be free to reject Him if that being is to be able to LOVE him freely.

Paul, here's the question that I have.. "if" God knew that Adam would sin, and that through Adam's sin the door would be opened to death, and that with sin and death around, some man (if not many) would be lost to perdition, and though there would be a plan set in motion to redeem man, still, there was the foreknowledge that some, if not many, would be lost. Would you then say that God was, for lack of a better term, unjust in creating a man that He knew would sin?

Did He do the same with the creation of the Angels that fell?

Or is it that since only God is perfect, all other created beings are created with the imperfect nature that eventually can cause them to sin?

[Byblos]

That would include God knowing the future of each individual?

Of course. One of God's attributes is omnisience.

[PaulSacramento]

God knew that Adam would sin and He also knew that there was a plan to address the issue of "free will" and the human propensity to sin.
As for the issue of original sin, God knew that a being MUST be free to reject Him if that being is to be able to LOVE him freely.

Paul, here's the question that I have.. "if" God knew that Adam would sin, and that through Adam's sin the door would be opened to death, and that with sin and death around, some man (if not many) would be lost to perdition, and though there would be a plan set in motion to redeem man, still, there was the foreknowledge that some, if not many, would be lost. Would you then say that God was, for lack of a better term, unjust in creating a man that He knew would sin?

Did He do the same with the creation of the Angels that fell?

Or is it that since only God is perfect, all other created beings are created with the imperfect nature that eventually can cause them to sin?

How can creating man with the ability to live as man WANTS be unjust?
Wouldn't it be more unjust to create a species of slaves?
If we are to be free to love God then we must be free to reject God, if not we are slaves to whatever God wants and that is not love.

See, you can't say that because God knew some would fall away and not choose Him that God should NEVER have started the creative process of the universe ( or at least humans).
Like a parent that KNOWS the one day His child will say " I hate you" ( and every parent knows this), but still brings a child into this world so that He/She may love it, God knows that the love He has for His creation will eventually bring ALL of creation right BUT he is not a dictator God that forces love and forces creation to do His will.
No, He is a God that KNOWS ALL and knowing all means knowing that you can NOT FORCE LOVE, you can't force redemption and reconciliation.
It must be done by choice.

God knew some Angels would rebel and fall but that is the cost of His love being TRUE love.

The rewards that God KNOWS are there for us that believe and love Him are FAR GREATER than what may be PERCEIVED as unjust in God creating a very good world as opposed to a perfect world.

[PaulSacramento]

That would include God knowing the future of each individual?

Of course. One of God's attributes is omnisience.

We don't' know exactly the details of God's omniscience.
We don;t know how it works and how it relates to free will and man's ability to choose.
IMO, I believe that God knows ALL possible outcomes of ALL possible choices even if He "doesn't know" ( for lack of a better way of putting it) which choice we will make.
That said, the fact that He knows what will happen REGARDLESS of the choice is pretty much ALL knowing for practical purposes.

[stuartcr]

If one doesn't know details of something and how it relates to things, how can one really say what it even is? I believe that is the difference between "knowing" something and a belief in something.

Doesn't God know the precise date, time and circumstances of our deaths?

If God knows that the love He has for His creation will eventually bring ALL of creation right, does that mean that those souls that go to hell will eventually be brought right? If so, what was the purpose of them going to hell?

[PaulSacramento]

If one doesn't know details of something and how it relates to things, how can one really say what it even is? I believe that is the difference between "knowing" something and a belief in something.

Doesn't God know the precise date, time and circumstances of our deaths?

If God knows that the love He has for His creation will eventually bring ALL of creation right, does that mean that those souls that go to hell will eventually be brought right? If so, what was the purpose of them going to hell?

Try to limit your posts to one question at a time if you can, thanks.

The difference between knowing and believing is far less than most think it is, but that is a different thread.
Does God know the precise date, time and circumstances of our death?
I don't know but according to some interpretations, yes He does and if your question is HOW can we have free will and choice if God already knows when and how we will die then you need to remember that KNOWING what choices a person will make doesn't mean they don't have a choice or that those choices weren't free to be made.

Hell is where those that CHOOSE to reject God go and eventually there will be no hell either and all of creation will be made right. The purpose of hell ( for as long as it exists) is to "house" those that reject God.
Of course, not all believe in Hell or believe that it is just a place where we all go when we die to await the resurrection.

[stuartcr]

I believe that God KNOWING a persons choices does mean that they don't have a choice. If God KNOWS something will happen or a choice will be made, then that knowledge must be true, because God cannot be wrong. The same cannot be said about men.

[PaulSacramento]

I believe that God KNOWING a persons choices does mean that they don't have a choice. If God KNOWS something will happen or a choice will be made, then that knowledge must be true, because God cannot be wrong. The same cannot be said about men.

So, in your view, God knowing that I have a choice means I DON'T have a choice ?

[stuartcr]

Correct. We all believe we have a choice, and for all appearances and with all we can conceive, we do. I believe though, that ultimately, everything we do is what God requires of each of us to fulfill His plan. If we didn't believe we had choices, we could never have laws.

[PaulSacramento]

Correct. We all believe we have a choice, and for all appearances and with all we can conceive, we do. I believe though, that ultimately, everything we do is what God requires of each of us to fulfill His plan. If we didn't believe we had choices, we could never have laws.

That doesn't make any sense, sorry.
Whether or not a person believes he has a choice or not is irrelevant to whether choices exist.

The bible make sit clear that God allows for choice, that rejection is possible and the reason that Christ came is to save those that choose to believe in Him because if choice was non-existent then salvation would not be needed since God has already decided who will or will not reject him.

[Starhunter]

Correct. We all believe we have a choice, and for all appearances and with all we can conceive, we do. I believe though, that ultimately, everything we do is what God requires of each of us to fulfill His plan. If we didn't believe we had choices, we could never have laws.

Stuartcr,

Paul sacramento knew you were onto this particular Q before you bought it on, did that control you or remove your decision making powers, or is Paul just supernatural?

[stuartcr]

???

[stuartcr]

If he'll is a housing area, why are those souls punished?

[stuartcr]

I do not believe that salvation is necessary.

[melanie]

I do not believe that salvation is necessary.

Hey there Stuartcr
If salvation isn't necessary, then Jesus' life, death and resurrection therefore wasn't necessary either?
Christ' sacrifice for our Salvation is the basis and core of Christianity.
He overcome what we could not and cannot, He paid our price. He did it out of love for us, we return His love by honouring Him, and His promise of Salvation, and by placing our love and faith in Him.