Separation or Annihilation?

[Lonewolf]

Physical Death or Spiritual Death?

Genesis 2:16-17
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Matthew 8:22
22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Psalm 37:18-20
18 The days of the blameless are known to the LORD, and their inheritance will endure forever. 19 In times of disaster they will not wither; in days of famine they will enjoy plenty. 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish--vanish like smoke.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

[Lonewolf]

How many and what kind of deaths are we to understand from the above posted scriptures? Anyone?

[B. W.]

Lonewolf,

There has been a lot written on this topic in the past - some of them are found here doing the search engine upper right corner by typing the word - Annihilation

Here are a few that discuss the scriptures you mentioned:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... nihilation

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... nihilation

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... nihilation
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[Lonewolf]

Ey B.W., thanxs., that's a lot of reading., I would of preferred to have started a whole new conversation on the subject, but alright.

I grew up believing in a fiery eternal hell like most Christians, but now, I'm not so sure., I don't believe that I understand the scripture -in reference to- the same as most orthodox or fundamental Christians do anymore.

[Starhunter]

How many and what kind of deaths are we to understand from the above posted scriptures? Anyone?

For humans there may be a difference between physical and spiritual death, usually preferring the latter, but for God someone who is spiritually dead is someone who is as good as dead anyway, nevertheless "He will not break a bruised reed."

For someone that has physically died, but not spiritually, that is, they remained in a connected hope with God, they are not dead to Him, but living, and Christ called that death "sleeping," because at any time He can bring them back to life as if nothing transpired.

The Bible indicates that the "second death" is more powerful than the first death. Rev 20:6, you can be resurrected from the first natural death of this life, even the wicked are raised again at the end of the millennium. But the "second death" following the judgement is permanent, from which none are raised.

[Lonewolf]

How many and what kind of deaths are we to understand from the above posted scriptures? Anyone?

For humans there may be a difference between physical and spiritual death, usually preferring the latter, but for God someone who is spiritually dead is someone who is as good as dead anyway, nevertheless "He will not break a bruised reed."

For someone that has physically died, but not spiritually, that is, they remained in a connected hope with God, they are not dead to Him, but living, and Christ called that death "sleeping," because at any time He can bring them back to life as if nothing transpired.

The Bible indicates that the "second death" is more powerful than the first death. Rev 20:6, you can be resurrected from the first natural death of this life, even the wicked are raised again at the end of the millennium. But the "second death" following the judgement is permanent, from which none are raised.

Thank you S.T.A.R.

I understand all of what you said., and the reason I would like a whole new conversation on subject topics is simply because with new conversations, new branches of thought can be explored, and new input can be gathered., so, having said that my next question would be, why two deaths for the fallen? If you've already messed up your opportunity, and if time in the other sense of things is like a blink of an eye, then why be woken up to be stood up in a line where your name is not going to be on the list of Life 4 Ever? Why not simply be condemned? Or is there a second chance once you plead your case when you come before the judge?

[PaulSacramento]

Physical death pays for our original sin, the sin we have of being away from God.
The second death is THE death, that is why all are brought back for final judgment.
Those that believe in Thirst will not be judged John 5:24-25, those that don't will be judged based on their works and those that have REJECTED Christ and God, well....

[B. W.]

Ey B.W., thanxs., that's a lot of reading., I would of preferred to have started a whole new conversation on the subject, but alright.

I grew up believing in a fiery eternal hell like most Christians, but now, I'm not so sure., I don't believe that I understand the scripture -in reference to- the same as most orthodox or fundamental Christians do anymore.

Well Lonewolf,

Let me begin by saying that we do not agree on this subject that God Annihilates into as a non-existent state at some far flung future date. With that said, let me be clear on this: to believe in the many varieties of Christian Annihilationist doctrines out there does not mean that one is not a Christian, or that they will be rejected By Christ. Likewise it goes the other way too. Such topic as this often gets heated and people miss the point about God's grace and his character and His nature.

The reason I shown you all the old posting on this topic demonstrates this as well as acts as a spring board to discuss. What I have discovered by those that adhere to Christian annihilationist doctrines do so solely on human emotionalism and thus attempt to fit that emotionalism into the scriptures concerning the words grave, sleep (death), death, etc and etc. Thus folks branch off into the concept of soul sleep and twist away clear scriptural text that demonstrate clearly that soul sleep is not scriptural such as Job 26:5,6, Ez 32:17-31 as well as Luke 16:20-31.

The subject of eternal recompense is a difficult subject for modern minds to grasp the need for it to be eternal so develops the concept of a doctrine based upon the concept of God 'mercy killing' the wicked by means of annihilation. Thus the condemned wicked or better translated the twisting, warping ones, find rest, yet, God mentions in Isaiah that there is no rest -Shâlōm - for such folks (Isa 48:22, Isa 57:21, Isa 3:11).

So the questions arise, why? Why wouldn't God mercy kill the wicked by means of true and utter annihilation. The answer is discovered that God will never do wickedly...do wrong... never do iniquity, never pervert justice as revealed in: Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way. 12 "Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice." NASB

Annihilation is the ultimate form of murder for spiritual beings. The scriptures teach that God never reneges of his gifts, callings, and promises and that one such gift is the gift of life (Job 33:4). God is a God of the living and not the dead Jesus mentioned. God cannot deny himself, 2 Tim 2:13. To make it simple, God will not take away life, even though we physically die, our spiritual essence continues on because God placed eternity in the human heart (Eccl 3:11, 14, Heb 9:27). Therefore for God to annihilate into a non-being state would actually cause God to deny his word, promises, and gifts concerning life. In fact this principle is mentioned in the words of a wise woman in 2 Sam 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." NASB

That way of God that banished one's will not be cast out is found in John 3:16 and Romans 10:8-13... there is no other way. A person rejecting this is cast out...

God does not take away life and for God to take away life into a state of annihilation is real murder by murdering into a state annihilation and proves God not capable of keeping his promises, gifts, and callings. God this not a murderer. Yes God can take a mortal life and bring a person into judgment but the person still lives on in a spiritual state. That is why the warnings of Jesus concerning the final state of recompense is s dire and for folks to avoid at all cost.

I know this may be hard to digest, but if human sentimentality makes it so. Actually such eternal recompense is actually just and actual merciful but that is another long series of post but for now they questions arise why wouldn't annihilation be more just and loving for fallen humanity and the devils of hell? Wouldn't that make God out as totally just?

Just to whom?

Just to those being tormented by their own torment? So claim that Hell unjust because in makes God out to be a happy torturer. However in Luke 19-31, you don’t see God torturing anyone; rather the man’s own ways were tormenting him because he caused others to live in a waste land, so he now resides in one. Revelation mentions that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever – God is not torturing anyone. Human being supply that themselves, Even in this life, they do.

Would it be just to God to act contrary to himself, renege on his word and gifts, how could God remain God if he did? How could all life continue if he proves himself untrue? Eternal Recompense is just because it is just to God and to those whom send themselves there.

How so some ask, is that fair to those in hell and face the lake of fire? God grants them what they desire, a life without him for starters, a life where they can no longer exploit love, mercy, grace, kindness, goodness for their gain and will. There, what they sown, they will reap…

Well, how can that be fair for temporal sin – God sending a person to hell for eternity for stealing a candy bar because such was hungry! That’s not fair! Well, would annihilation be fairer for stealing the candy bar?

Stealing is a fruit of a deeper sin. Stealing because one is hungry is one thing but stealing a candy bar and using the bible to justify theft is another because one is hungry. It is not the theft, but rather what is in the heart that twists moral judgment to decide what is good and what is bad from perpetrators perspective that justifies behavior. It is that, is why folks send themselves to hell and make sin so eternally serious.

When one dies mortal death they enter an eternal state sealed, knowing God will not renege life, and if allowed into heaven, they would continue to pit God’s own character and nature against itself to get their gets because they cannot behold the majesty of God but only deem such majesty as means to their own ends. This God will not allow – Isaiah 26:10 speaks of this same thing.

In this life alone, we can become Born Again by the blood shed upon the cross of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit to never sin again in eternity. Now that is fair and Just – escaping the justified wrath of God to come!

Yes we can continue this discussion but by no means take it that Christian who believe in annihilationism are not Christians and I wish such no ill will or hard feelings either as I understand the emtional need felt at such thoughts as eternal recompense. So be Blessed and bring many into the God's Kingdom before he shuts the door...
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[Starhunter]

I understand all of what you said., and the reason I would like a whole new conversation on subject topics is simply because with new conversations, new branches of thought can be explored, and new input can be gathered., so, having said that my next question would be, why two deaths for the fallen? If you've already messed up your opportunity, and if time in the other sense of things is like a blink of an eye, then why be woken up to be stood up in a line where your name is not going to be on the list of Life 4 Ever? Why not simply be condemned? Or is there a second chance once you plead your case when you come before the judge?

Why should sinners be made to face the Judge? Why can't they be let go after this life?

it is easy to understand in the case of the criminal who gets away with it, lives on paradise island and passes away with old age, while the victims suffer greatly.

Sinners don't just fall into mischief, they have to resist the Holy Spirit and righteousness and love and fairness, over and over again until they commit the crimes and harden themselves. Of course, this does not mean a hardened sinner cannot be saved, but we don't want to waste grace either.

Sinners are also well developed narcissists, and want the opportunity to rant at God, which opportunity God will give them.
It is interesting that when given that opportunity they make weapons and plan an attack on the New Jerusalem, ready to steal and murder all over again. Isaiah 54:17.

But they are also described in the Bible as having gone "past feeling" they are not sensitive to anyone else but themselves.

In this condition, they cannot possibly recognize what they perpetrate onto others, because they conveniently push those feelings aside until they are completely blunted to God and anyone else.

The judgement clears this denial up and only then are they able to see God's fairness and justice in keeping them out of heaven, and they will also recognize that if they were admitted to eternal life, they could not bear it, it would be torture to them, because no one there is into image or hierarchy or power, eternal life would be an eternal embarrassment, with the only option being another rebellion / battle, where they feel they belong.

[PaulSacramento]

One must repent before they are saved.
To be judged on ones actions is just part of it, repentance is also need.
But to repent is not just to say I am sorry, it is the fully admit ones sins against others AND God, to understand and bare full consequences of those sins and very few people that are bad, truly bad (evil even) are willing to repent or even want to.

[Silvertusk]

I have done a bit of research in this area myself and I am more convinced on the Annihilation interpretation of scripture than the traditional. For instance all through the NT eternal life seems to be something that inherit of is a gift - meaning the alternative is oblivion.

[RickD]

One must repent before they are saved.
To be judged on ones actions is just part of it, repentance is also need.
But to repent is not just to say I am sorry, it is the fully admit ones sins against others AND God, to understand and bare full consequences of those sins and very few people that are bad, truly bad (evil even) are willing to repent or even want to.

That is not what metanoia means.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)
You are putting conditions on salvation that aren't there.

[neo-x]

Annihilation makes sense but lets admit it there is no clear take on it in scriptures. With that being said, I don't think hell burns with fire, it doesn't make sense. I do think its a place as Christ said, where there is anguish and sorrow. For eternity or for a shorter time, no one really knows.

[B. W.]

One must repent before they are saved.
To be judged on ones actions is just part of it, repentance is also need.
But to repent is not just to say I am sorry, it is the fully admit ones sins against others AND God, to understand and bare full consequences of those sins and very few people that are bad, truly bad (evil even) are willing to repent or even want to.

That is not what metanoia means.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)
You are putting conditions on salvation that aren't there.

I think what PaulS is referring to is found in John 16:8,9 because the Holy Spirit first convicts and that conviction leads a person to change mind, heart, and life's direction to follow God's ways as they see their own ways as death. So that sort of metanoia can come first to lead one to surrender to Christ, their life's course, heart, and mind. So in that context I think PaulS was alluding too and not as a condition of salvation but rather a result of God's grace/salvation by the Holy Spirit's power.

Look this verse over in several translations as it appears to demonstrate the Holy Spirit's convicting and sentencing work in Acts chapter Three:

Acts 3:19 form the '1611 KJV' reads: "Repent yee therefore, and bee conuerted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shal come from the presence of the Lord."

NLT reads - Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away...

ERV reads - So you must change your hearts and lives. Come back to God, and he will forgive your sins...

The APB reads, which follows the Greek word order: Repent then, and turn, for the wiping away of your sins! so that [3, should come - 1, times - 2, of respite] from the presence of the Lord

Or you can just Translate as: Change your minds, turn, and He will forgive you your sins...

There is Holy Ghost conviction that leads to either a change of one's life course, or leads to a sealing of a hard heart to remain hard and unchanged as a result of salvation/grace by the Holy Spirit's power.

Note -why did I post the 1611 KJV version? Simple, to show the KJV only folks something... the alteration of the KJV from the original
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[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
I think what PaulS is referring to is found in John 16:8,9 because the Holy Spirit first convicts and that conviction leads a person to change mind, heart, and life's direction to follow God's ways as they see their own ways as death.

I don't disagree. But that's sanctification of a believer. One who is saved. It's not a condition of salvation.

Salvation is by God's grace, through faith(trusting) in Christ.

The actual turning from sin as PaulS was referring to, comes as a believer is sanctified by the HS.