Was Adam perfect?

[Lonewolf]

I do not believe that salvation is necessary.

Stu, are you saying this ^ ^ from a Christian Universalist viewpoint or understanding of scripture?

[Starhunter]

???

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying that If God was all knowing that we don't have free choice.

So I used the illustration of foreknowledge, Paul knowing what you would ask, and how it did not affect your choices on what you posted, just like God's foreknowledge does not make decisions for anyone. ?

[stuartcr]

It was necessary for those that believe it was.

[stuartcr]

I'm saying from neither of those. It's just what I believe.

[stuartcr]

Paul believed he knew what I would ask and he was correct...but he did not know it, because I'm sure he will admit that he could have been incorrect and I could have replied differently. God knows what things will happen and He is never wrong...so it must happen that way.

[melanie]

That would include God knowing the future of each individual?

You seem to hold the view that what is the purpose of free will if our choices are known, our futures pre-destined anyway. That would reduce the life experience to a game of chess where every move of every piece is known and the eventual outcome determined, not making it a game at all but a robotic, illusion of game playing. God is not a dictator, He is a loving Father who has not reduced our lives to his game of chess of us moving about the board, every move pre-destined by Himself for an outcome that is already known. That is not love, that sounds more to me like controlled, manipulated gameplay. It takes away free will, as it really is, and responsibility for our actions, after all how are we even held accountable for our choices if they are all pre-destined anyway.
Scripture speaks many times of free will but we also know that the names of those who will inherit the kingdom of heaven were written in the book of life before the creation of the world. I think perhaps verses like this lead believers down this train of thought. God did not write those names based on who He thought He might like in it and who He would prefer would not. How unloving and unjust God would be if before we were born, He predetermined the course we would take and then held us accountable for it. Free will precludes predestination.
If a mechanic warns us that our car is faulty then we have an accident, the mechanic cannot be held responsible or thought to have predetermined it. We heed the warning then decide what do with the information, we path the way if our car runs off into a ditch.
Life is not a multiple question situation where every box is already ticked, we tick the boxes as we move along.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul believed he knew what I would ask and he was correct...but he did not know it, because I'm sure he will admit that he could have been incorrect and I could have replied differently. God knows what things will happen and He is never wrong...so it must happen that way.

My omniscience aide for now, the simple fact is this:
Things exist regardless of whether or not we believe them to be so and things are regardless of we agree that they are.
A triangle is a triangle even if no triangles exist or we had never seen one.
One could make the argument that triangles don't exist and never existed because we have never seen one or because we don't agree with the premises of what makes a triangle BUT that wouldn't change the fact that they do exist.
It is the same for free will and God's omniscience.
The simple matter that you DO have a choice in anything you do, even if you don't like the choice or FEEL you don't have one, means that you have free will to choose ( not choosing is also an exercise of free will of course). How does this relate to God's omniscience?
Quite honestly NO ONE knows 100% for sure other than God BUT as humans we can TRY to reason the harmony between being ABLE to KNOW EVERYTHING and CHOOSING to know everything OR we can try to rationalize what it means to KNOW everything.
I gave you at least one view, that God knows all possible choices and their incomes so from a practical POV, He knows everything you will do even if YOU don't know yet.
Another view is that You are free to choose and God knows your choice because, well, He knows you 100%.

Nowhere does it state in the bible that God has PREORDAINED the WHOLE life of EVERYONE ever born or to be born.

If life is NOT preordained, then people have the ability to choose from whatever choices they have.

[stuartcr]

That would include God knowing the future of each individual?

You seem to hold the view that what is the purpose of free will if our choices are known, our futures pre-destined anyway.

That's not correct. I just hold the view that, ultimately, we really do not have free will. I understand the purpose for it.

What is wrong with God knowing our every move? Perhaps that is the way God expresses His love? Why would we think that God does things the way humans do?

I don't think it's accurate to compare what God does or His motives, with those of humans.

[melanie]

That would include God knowing the future of each individual?

You seem to hold the view that what is the purpose of free will if our choices are known, our futures pre-destined anyway.

That's not correct. I just hold the view that, ultimately, we really do not have free will. I understand the purpose for it.

What is wrong with God knowing our every move? Perhaps that is the way God expresses His love? Why would we think that God does things the way humans do?

I don't think it's accurate to compare what God does or His motives, with those of humans.

That is an oxymoron; I understand the purpose for free will but don't think we have it. If there was no such thing, it would be purposeless.

[stuartcr]

[quote="PaulSacramento"][quote="stuartcr"]
Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

[PaulSacramento]

Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

On this part I agree 100%:

We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

The only place where we part is on the WHY.
You seem to be implying that we choose (A) because God has willed it that we choose (A).
I am stating that we choose (A) and God knows we choose (A) because he knows that is what we will choose because He KNOWS US.
The choice is still Ours.

[stuartcr]

[quote="melanie"][quote="stuartcr"]We believe we have it, and it is ingrained in us as men because without the concept of free will, we could have no laws. It's part of what separates us from animals.

[stuartcr]

Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

On this part I agree 100%:

We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

The only place where we part is on the WHY.
You seem to be implying that we choose (A) because God has willed it that we choose (A).
I am stating that we choose (A) and God knows we choose (A) because he knows that is what we will choose because He KNOWS US.
The choice is still Ours.

Obviously we disagree, thanks

[melanie]

Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.

Where is that line drawn? We make choices everyday, is it just in relation to our walk with Him, or in every decision in life? Will I have vegemite or jam on my toast? Will I get my hair cut today? Will I choose to walk away if someone insults me? Is it every choice we make, or just the important ones, in regards to our salvation?
Is that we make these choices because God already knows we will or rather we make our own choices that God has foreknowledge of, there is a difference.

[melanie]

We believe we have it, and it is ingrained in us as men because without the concept of free will, we could have no laws. It's part of what separates us from animals.

I'm not one to get stuck on semantics but to have a belief on something is an acceptance on an assumption or conviction, a purpose is the reason something exists, is done or made.
The purpose of free will is defined differently to ones belief on it.