Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
stuartcr wrote:
Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.
On this part I agree 100%:
We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.
The only place where we part is on the WHY.
You seem to be implying that we choose (A) because God has willed it that we choose (A).
I am stating that we choose (A) and God knows we choose (A) because he knows that is what we will choose because He KNOWS US.
The choice is still Ours.
Obviously we disagree, thanks
Indeed, BUT I am curious as to where you got your notion.
Did you find that in the bible?
stuartcr wrote:
Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.
Obviously we disagree, thanks[/quote]
Indeed, BUT I am curious as to where you got your notion.
Did you find that in the bible?[/quote]No, it's just what is self-evident to me.
stuartcr wrote:
Yes, things exist whether we believe in them or not. We believe we have free will and we make choices...I believe though, that we make these choices because God already knows we will and He cannot be incorrect. We must make that particular choice, all the while believing it was wholly our free will. We cannot choose differently than what God knows we will choose.
Where is that line drawn? We make choices everyday, is it just in relation to our walk with Him, or in every decision in life? Will I have vegemite or jam on my toast? Will I get my hair cut today? Will I choose to walk away if someone insults me? Is it every choice we make, or just the important ones, in regards to our salvation?
Is that we make these choices because God already knows we will or rather we make our own choices that God has foreknowledge of, there is a difference.
Stuartcr
I don't imagine there is a line
Interesting.
There has to be a line one would think. Let's assume God has not only foreknowledge but has predestined every choice we make, then surely he uses this to his discretion and would only choose foreknowledge on certain circumstances in our lives.
If I'm sitting at the lights in my car and I've cars on my left and right and a car behind me and I have a rather annoying booger that I would like to get rid of, but let's face it my windows aren't that tinted, but I throw caution to the wind anyway (with a tissue of course and in the most lady-like fashion possible) decide to free myself of this affliction, are you suggesting that the good Lord predestined my choice??
I don't know of a better way of putting it. It's just what seems right to me. I have no idea where I got the notion. Of course, if God isn't all knowing and powerful, then I guess we do have free will.
stuartcr wrote:I don't know why there would have to be a line. God is capable of anything.
No, not anything, God is bound by the very nature that makes Him God.
He can't make a square circle or anything logically impossible.
That is the most important part of God's Omnienss ( the quality of being ALL something- all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, etc, etc).
The bible actually gives us examples of times where God chooses to not know or choose to leave things 100% up to us.
Logically impossible for humans. He made people out of dust, didn't He? He made animals speak, He walked on water, He appeared after His death, He performed miracles, etc.
stuartcr wrote:Logically impossible for humans. He made people out of dust, didn't He? He made animals speak, He walked on water, He appeared after His death, He performed miracles, etc.
I don't think you grasp the concept, none of what you mention is impossible in accordance with God's nature.
God can NOT go against His nature or HE would be imperfect and as such, NOT God.
I do not believe what is logically impossible to us, is logically impossible to God. Perhaps there is some part of God's nature that we as humans either don't know or just cannot conceive of?
stuartcr wrote:I do not believe what is logically impossible to us, is logically impossible to God. Perhaps there is some part of God's nature that we as humans either don't know or just cannot conceive of?
So, God could make a four sided circle?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
It wouldn't be what we consider a circle, would it? That can easily be proven. What cannot be proven, is whether we have free will or not. That is what we are talking about, not geometric shapes that exist in nature. You just can't use our logic to explain some things. What are miracles? Is it logical that a pile of inert dust can become a man?
stuartcr wrote:Paul believed he knew what I would ask and he was correct...but he did not know it, because I'm sure he will admit that he could have been incorrect and I could have replied differently. God knows what things will happen and He is never wrong...so it must happen that way.
I am picking up on something else here stuartcr, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you feel that you cannot be trusted in making decisions for your life. Do you get overwhelmed with what you think needs to be done in your life?
