Is it wrong..
-
- Valued Member
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:12 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Southern California
Is it wrong..
Is it wrong, or unpermitted, Biblically speaking, for women to teach or preach "in front" of the congregation?
What did Paul have to say about it?
Not to mention, Christ?
What did Paul have to say about it?
Not to mention, Christ?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!
- Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
My understanding of the texts is "no." I think we've made a mistake in equating teaching and even preaching with what pastors do on Sunday morning. I would even go so far as to suggest that very few churches actually have anyone teaching. Male or female. Ever.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Jac, can women preach to men?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Jac, what do you think about this article?
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
- Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
I don't have any problem with women preaching to men. If a woman proclaims the gospel, then so much the better. I disagree with the article that Paul's insistence that a woman not have authority over a man "definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority." I've offered some of my thoughts on the matter here:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... in-church/
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... in-church/
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Thanks,Jac3510 wrote:I don't have any problem with women preaching to men. If a woman proclaims the gospel, then so much the better. I disagree with the article that Paul's insistence that a woman not have authority over a man "definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority." I've offered some of my thoughts on the matter here:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... in-church/
I will read that.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
So, according to your article, I may teach and preach, but always under the headship of men.Jac3510 wrote:I don't have any problem with women preaching to men. If a woman proclaims the gospel, then so much the better. I disagree with the article that Paul's insistence that a woman not have authority over a man "definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority." I've offered some of my thoughts on the matter here:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... in-church/
Hmm, may I as a moderator moderate poster who is a man?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
- Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Within the context of church leadership, yes; and, of course, understanding "headship" properly. It's a purely an issue of function and has absolutely no bearing on anyone's value or standing before God.1over137 wrote:So, according to your article, I may teach and preach, but always under the headship of men.Jac3510 wrote:I don't have any problem with women preaching to men. If a woman proclaims the gospel, then so much the better. I disagree with the article that Paul's insistence that a woman not have authority over a man "definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority." I've offered some of my thoughts on the matter here:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... in-church/
YOU MUST MODERATE AS I SAY!!!!!11!! hahahahahahahaHmm, may I as a moderator moderate poster who is a man?
This isn't a church, but even if we so conceived it, that still wouldn't have anything to do with teaching or authority or any such thing. After all, however you think of yourself, I doubt it is in terms of being our elder/shepherd/spiritual authority. If I were to guess, I would bet it's something more along the lines of peace keeper or basic rule enforcer. And while an elder may keep the peace sometimes, that's not their basic responsibility. The same is true for enforcing rules. Keep in mind that the gifts of administration are their own classification, and while an elder ought to be able to administrate, even that is not his basic job. As such, there is absolutely nothing preventing a female from fully operating in such a role, at least in my view. And taking that back to the boards, if you wanted to compare what you do with a church position, I would think administration would be far more appropriate.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Peace keeper - I like that
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
- B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
Re: Is it wrong..
1over137 wrote:Peace keeper - I like that
He better be...
Hana Jac...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
- 1over137
- Technical Admin
- Posts: 5329
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Slovakia
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
I did not want to anybody
(Not good from peace keeper )
(Not good from peace keeper )
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-
- Valued Member
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:12 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Southern California
Re: Is it wrong..
Jac3510 wrote: (1) My understanding of the texts is "no." I think we've made a mistake in equating teaching and even preaching with what pastors do on Sunday morning. (2) I would even go so far as to suggest that very few churches actually have anyone teaching. Male or female. Ever.
Well then, should there be women pastors?
We already know that women teach in Christ, but can they be pastors of a church (congregation) ?? Biblically speaking, that is
..
In regards to (2)
Imo, we have become too critical of most basic teachings, and demand more because of our inquiring mind, but that does not mean that the rest of the congregation requires the same amount of learning that some of us do, because for some, in fact, for many, basics is all they need. It is hard to acknowledge, but many are indeed conformed with basics, and that's all they require to keep them in the faith.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!
- neo-x
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 3551
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Contact:
Re: Is it wrong..
Hana, my own understanding is that in biblical times, the role of spiritual headship fell unto men because they were male dominant cultures. In a female dominant culture God would always chose women over men. That is also the reason why God is always referred to in the male-gender. And one thing I agree with Jac on is that at its core this is not really driven by gender but by authority. So whoever has authority between both sexes has a greater chance to lead. Male dominant cultures have males as heads, authority figures. God is then depicted in the same way. Even though we know God has no gender.
So I don't think we can say for certain that
We can only say that in biblical times it was always true. Today, I see no reason why we should simply accept that. I understand where you are coming from Jac, my own church had the same teaching but I don't find it convincing anymore.
In biblical times women were ill-equipped to handle the tasks men did. And that is why 99% of the times God chose males to do their tasks. Women were illiterate, had not much social standing, were given very less power compared to men, and were considered inferior to men. Their role was solely related to hearth and bed and children. That is why the king was male, the prophet was male, the priest and high priest was male. The Jewish law even assigns double the days for females to be purified compared to men. It drips with male dominance all over the place.
So I don't think we can say for certain that
From Jac's article.We should simply recognize that God has ordained the husband as the spiritual head of the household, and as such, women are, in some sense, not to be in spiritual authority over men.
We can only say that in biblical times it was always true. Today, I see no reason why we should simply accept that. I understand where you are coming from Jac, my own church had the same teaching but I don't find it convincing anymore.
In biblical times women were ill-equipped to handle the tasks men did. And that is why 99% of the times God chose males to do their tasks. Women were illiterate, had not much social standing, were given very less power compared to men, and were considered inferior to men. Their role was solely related to hearth and bed and children. That is why the king was male, the prophet was male, the priest and high priest was male. The Jewish law even assigns double the days for females to be purified compared to men. It drips with male dominance all over the place.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com