Separation or Annihilation?

[Starhunter]

That is precisely what I was saying and Mallz is correct about torture consisting of self-torment...
-

So all that God does is give life and they themselves do the tormenting? They punish themselves...

Are they sinning while doing this or are they now righteous for doing the lord's work?

[Mallz]

If God is correct in saying that "the wages of sin is death" and if we say that they never die, they can never get the wages and God is wrong?
Romans 6:23.

They do get their wages, appropriate to their works. Their torment will be as severe as their sin. I think about it like this: when you have someone start abusing drugs, at the beginning it does not consume their lives and if they decide to turn from this way, it would not be as painful to reform one's self. But is still hard, and painful. If someone is addicted to the point of dependency, their lives have become the drug as it is what governs their day to day lives. To turn from this is much harder and much more painful. Now comparing this to humans. We are all abusing 'drugs' (life). Those who turn to reform through faith in Christ avoid the wages of our sin although It can still be hard to turn from sin and be a painful experience in 'dying to our flesh'. Those who do not turn, die to their abuse. Those who were abusing but not dependent are not going to be in as much pain as those living with dependency when the drug is suddenly taken away (in this context, drugs=lives not just your own, but others included)

So all that God does is give life and they themselves do the tormenting? They punish themselves...
Are they sinning while doing this or are they now righteous for doing the lord's work?

Where's the connection to them doing the Lords work? They are doing their own work by their own hands. Walking by your own beat and not by Gods will is sin (self separation from God, which leads to imposing one's will on others). Sin is the absence of the Love and Light of existence (God) and the walking away from our true natures (created by Gods will). When we alter who and what we are and were created to be, we sin. When we impose our own will on ourselves and/or others over Gods, we sin. When we align our will with our Fathers, it is then when we truly become alive as His ambassadors, or His image.

James 1:13-15 'Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.'

Romans 6:3 'Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?'
Death does have more than one meaning throughout the bible. We 'die' to this world, we 'die' in Christ. That is a passing away/turning away/destruction of something old so that something new may be instilled. Death can be associated with a positive and negative. It is referred to as a rebirth when we die in Christ. When we die in our sins, is referred to a destruction of who and what we are supposed to be, Gods image. Sin perverts our natures, which is to die to what we are supposed to be.

Romans 6:16 'Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?'

Here you see one of these contrasts. A slave to sin leads to death (unrighteousness [wickedness, injustice]) whereas a slave to obedience leads to righteousness (morally upright without guilt and sin, virtuous)

Just some food for thought. All verses are from the KJV.

[Starhunter]

There is no doubt that sin has consequences on oneself, but the wages of sin is death.

The trouble people get in life from their own actions are consequences of sin tempered by grace from God. In other words God allows a certain amount of trouble as a warning that the full consequence of sin is death.

The basis of that grace is the sacrifice of Christ for the world. This sacrifice buys time, grace and hope for the sinner, but it also guarantees that sinners will not create evil without warnings and limited consequences.

If God was to give sinners the full consequence or wage of sin, they would be killed instantly.

So after the day of judgement, when there are no more resurrections of the dead, those who chose in this life to cling to sin, will die.

They will not live, or torment themselves forever.

But what many are teaching is that sinners will not die, so they are not in line with the scriptures or God.

[Mallz]

So the question is, ultimately, what is meant by death? Is it non-existence, or separation?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

Do we not already possess immortal souls fashioned with eternity when the Father makes them?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Is life a gift from God?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Body ceases 'returns to dust', soul continues.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Spiritual death does not mean non-existence, but separation. His soul wasn't dead/annihilated and then re-created. There are other passages that promote this, I can post at request.

Also, how would you reconcile these verses? Specifically the parts underlined?

Daniel 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
To be full of contempt one must have reasoning abilities. How could an annihilated soul have contempt?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Punishment would cease at annihilation. Everlasting punishment could only occur if a soul is not annihilated. Here's a contrast again too. If life and death are union and separation from God, then this everlasting punishment would be eternal separation from God, while life eternal is eternal union with God

I see where you and Lonewolf are coming from, I believed the same for a while. And there is enough in scripture to promote annihilation. But I think it's a singular, not holistic approach about life and death throughout the Bible. Also, if it were annihilation, then the Bible would seem to contradict itself. Yes?

[Starhunter]

... everlasting contempt, everlasting fire, damnation, everlasting shame, everlasting torment, smoke that ascends up forever, etc nothing in there about everlasting life in hell.

If a crime demands a prison sentence -"never to be released," this does not automatically mean that the prisoner will live forever.

Also, the problem with saying that death is not really death, but eternal life, or life on some other level, means you have a religion that teaches that Christ never really died.

Also, the belief that God will endure and sustain sinful life, comes from total ignorance about how Life exists, and on what basis He gives life.

Also, the fact that the life or spirit returns to God upon death, in itself tells us that if you want to believe in the idea that the spirit of life is the conscious ghost of an individual, that it too goes back to God and not to hell.
To get around that one, all one needs to do is say that the text is only referring to good spirits.

Also, none of the texts supplied, are proof of the eternal soul doctrine.
For eg; Ecclesiastes 8:4,5,6 in the same book makes it plain what happens after death.

I have had someone argue that it is only a spiritual death that is talked about, but it says "a living dog is better than a dead lion." I have never known dogs and lions to be religious.

[B. W.]

Mallz wrote,
From what I've gathered, the 'torture' is really their self-torment. What they 'want' is to abuse life for their own specific selfish means. After this mortal life, and if they are adamant about not being with God in this life, God will oblige them and they will live without Him. But they will not be able to abuse others anymore, as they will have no effect on other life in hell. Which will cause them great torment, because they cannot continue doing the deeds they love and desire: to corrupt other life. Instead they will be wailing and crying.

If God is correct in saying that "the wages of sin is death" and if we say that they never die, they can never get the wages and God is wrong?
Romans 6:23.

Yes, correct…

Questions:

After you sin, are you struck down immediately and die, or do you still live?

If God annihilates into non-existence – would not that then fulfill all the definitions and nuances of murder? Therefore to do so, God sins – you really desire this?

'Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.'
Reads to me like the the soul can be destroyed., if a soul could not be killed, why would there be cherubim placed at the entrance to the garden to keep man from eating from the tree of life?

That thought about the garden crossed my mind recently, Genesis 3:22-24. The only way to have eternal life was to eat of that tree of life. Also Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life..."

No fruit, no eternal life.

The Greek word translated destroy denotes a state of ruin and decent into a living form of decay.

Questions:

Now what is more fearful, eternal recompense or annihilation?

With annihilation, one finds the peace of nothingness would they not? Therefore for instance, a sadist serial killer will actually be getting away with his or her crimes. However, if it is like Jesus says, never ending ruin where one reaps what they sown, then, Jesus’ warning has more power and effect - true absolute justice served.

Think for a moment, if that same serial killer knows he or she can escape into the nothingness you hold dearly too, then would not that only serve to justify the killer's actions all the more since he or she will, in true essence - get away with it? However the central truth principle is found in Isaiah 57:21 – there is NO Peace for the wicked. The bible answers this, does it not?

So you desire to strip God of his justice and commit sin of pitting God's own standards against himself in order to appease your conscience so you can be at ease?

Lastly, in Genesis concerning the tree of life, if Adam and Eve partook of that tree after the fall, would not that then mean they would continue to live forever in their mortal bodies as well in a state of rebellion? You see, it was after the fall that could of happened and in mercy, God stopped this, and had in mind two occasions mentioned in Rev 20:5, 14 – providing a means of escape as well as warnings with great just patience. Selah…

Would it also not imply, that God would be completely incapable of keeping his word of warning about the two deaths mentioned in Gen 2:17 …in the day you eat, you will DIE – DIE…?

So you desire God to prove himself incapable of keeping his word and of committing actual factual cosmic murder of annihilation to appease your senses – how then is that not rebellion and attempting to trap God by pitting his mercy against its self so you’ll be right?

That is precisely what I was saying and Mallz is correct about torture consisting of self-torment...

So all that God does is give life and they themselves do the tormenting? They punish themselves...

Are they sinning while doing this or are they now righteous for doing the lord's work?

Do people torment themselves now, in this life?

As to your question – it is what the bible says and the principles it defines, not us, therefore:

Rev 14:11 , And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night…

It states their torment so it is their own and they find no rest or peace at all – no state of annihilation which jumps them into an escape into the peace nothing brings which factually would cause the guilty to actually get away with their rebellious ways...

Luke 16:19-30 also reveals the torment in the current hell is also a person’s own, no where does it show or prove God is a happy torturer. For God to be that would cause him to deny his word – God renders to a person what they sown they reap (Job 34:11, Jeremiah 32:29, Matthew 16:27, Rom 2:6).

So the answer would be – they are reaping the wages of sin, do you desire to reap such wages or escape through the work of God upon that old rugged cross so to escape the living 2md death?

Oh what price Jesus paid for such an escape and woe upon those bent upon the self torments sin brings… wages of sin is death…

... everlasting contempt, everlasting fire, damnation, everlasting shame, everlasting torment, smoke that ascends up forever, etc nothing in there about everlasting life in hell.

If a crime demands a prison sentence -"never to be released," this does not automatically mean that the prisoner will live forever.

Also, the problem with saying that death is not really death, but eternal life, or life on some other level, means you have a religion that teaches that Christ never really died.

Also, the belief that God will endure and sustain sinful life, comes from total ignorance about how Life exists, and on what basis He gives life.

Also, the fact that the life or spirit returns to God upon death, in itself tells us that if you want to believe in the idea that the spirit of life is the conscious ghost of an individual, that it too goes back to God and not to hell.

To get around that one, all one needs to do is say that the text is only referring to good spirits.

Also, none of the texts supplied, are proof of the eternal soul doctrine.
For eg; Ecclesiastes 8:4,5,6 in the same book makes it plain what happens after death.

I have had someone argue that it is only a spiritual death that is talked about, but it says "a living dog is better than a dead lion." I have never known dogs and lions to be religious.

You do not know metaphors of language do you? 1 Peter 5:8 speaks that the devil walks about like a roaring lion… so is the devil a literal lion? Next, the metaphor that people are dogs means what?

Also read the comments above again as these answer you form the bible – what you desire is God to cease being himself so that you be the king, yet, you remain blind to this and smugly justify yourself in doing this too.

You discount the abundance of verses that clearly explain eternal punishment means never ending as the gift of life altering eternal life is never ending Matt 25:46 as well as all the warning from Jesus and the prophets concerning eternal recompense and the state of the unsaved dead (Job 26:5, Ez 32:19-31, etc and etc).

Fact is, there is peace in annihilation by going into a state of nothingness that actually means that the wicked and rebellions, do indeed get away with their works and deeds.

Nothing at all terrifying about that, is there? One most certainly can exploit that and justify sinning…

However, never ending reaping what one sows, is more frightening, yet, even with that, people do not listen and instead like you, seek ways to circumvent God’s Justice...

Eccl 3:11, 14, 17

Have a nice day
-
-
-

[Lonewolf]

Annihilation can be considered eternal, right? If you cease to take part in life and you are consumed by your sins in the fire, are you not eternally punished?

I do believe there is clear scripture that speaks on the punishement and rewards for sin, both in this world and in the coming judgement.,
yes, even a serial killer will not get away from what he did, for there will be consequences once your eyes behold the truth you discarded!

What happens a lot of the times when we have developed a certain "belief" in what suppodsedly a verse or passage of scripture is saying, is that we start reading the same thing into everything we read., we want it to say what we have already trained our interpretation of things - train of tought, per say.

for example..

Eccles. 3:11
To what -in the rest of the reading- is man compared to?
And to where do both return to?
And Who shall bring him (man) to what shall be after?

Putting "eternity" in one's heart doe not necessarily say that us/we are eternal., it does however convey the message that that is what was originally intended for us.
And who in their right mind doesn't want to live for ever? None of us -speaking in general terms - want to die! But that doesn't mean we wont!

Rom. 11:29
Life is a gift from God indeed, and that life that He gifted us originally, of that life He is not repentant; hence the plan of salvation brought to us via Christ.,
so that none should "perish" but have "everlasting" life., compare perish to everlasting., one is punishment, the other is a reward (gift)

Luke 15:24

No doubt that humanity in general can be as walking dead, for humanity has become separated sritually from God, but as yet we are still being shown mercy before we return to the dust, and then after the judgement where an accounting will have to be done, and then judgement passed, either life everlasting, or eternal punishment ~> death.

[Lonewolf]

In the G and S main cover pages, you'll find the article titled "What Will Hell be Like?" by Rich Deem, in which he writes "It is possible that hell will involve both torment (until the day of judgment) and eventual destruction." based on scripture such as..

Psalms 92:7,
Matthew 7:13,
John 5:24,
John 8:51,
Romans 6:21, 23, 9:22,
2 Corinthians 7:10,
Philippians 3:18-19,
2 Thessalonians 1:9,
James 1:15,
1 John 3:14,
2 Peter 3:7, 3:16,
Revelation 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:8

So does'The Second Death' translate into Eternal Suffering in Hell ?

[Lonewolf]

Fact is, there is peace in annihilation by going into a state of nothingness that actually means that the wicked and rebellions, do indeed get away with their works and deeds.

Nothing at all terrifying about that, is there? One most certainly can exploit that and justify sinning…

However, never ending reaping what one sows, is more frightening, yet, even with that, people do not listen and instead like you, seek ways to circumvent God’s Justice...

^ ^ that sounds a lot like in order to have a heaven, you must have a hell., in order to have justice, you must have injustice, in other words, you can't have one without having the other.,

couldn't that be construed as a dualism, ying yang, or something like that?

I does appear that some Christians may indeed need there to be a hell in order to validate a certain sense of what justice is supposed to be about.

[B. W.]

Let me again state, there are Christians who hold to a 'hopeful annihilation' view and others who hold to a more strict annihilation view point. That is okay, as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and can agree to disagree...

Myself and others here state the case why we do not hold to that view point because it does not line up with who God is, nor is it scripturally sound being based on human emotional response imposed into the bible to present either a 'hopeful annihilation' or that more strict annihilation viewpoint. For those that do not understand our case,that is okay, such a matter as this is not essential for one's salvation and therefore Christian folks can agree to disagree. A matter such as this will be cleared up at one particular time we all will face and then full understanding will be granted. After which, I'll meet you all in heaven one fine day and we can all toast a glass of heavenly wine and have one of the best heavenly praise fest imaginable. Sound like a plan?

As a former atheist who once thought oblivion into nothingness was sublime, I had that kicked radically out of me by God's mighty hand. As such, in my opinion, Christian annihilationist view points share much in common with the atheists in this matter concerning one's final-final state. Both have a hopeful optimism that a certain kind of nothingness prevails. With the Christian, I have no trouble with thier point of view on annihilation, its the atheist, agnostic, the average Joe and Mary I worry about. Why? Sin is watered down so much so in many church groups that so few people really know what it is and why it is so vile. The gospel presented as a means not to offend, yet, the gospel does indeed offend, and folks do need offending to wake them up to the cliff they are heading too. So dear Christians Help wake them up...

...Trust Jesus, what he says, and you will do well. Always trust Jesus, learn, pray, grow in the faith, and become strong in the Lord in the power of his might and not your own - you will do well. Whatever view point you hold, others are heading to a tragic fate, so go forth and share the gospel by your life's actions, words, prayers, and faith to those all around you. Amen...

God be with you all...
-
-
-

[Lonewolf]

such a matter as this is not essential for one's salvation

Mr. B.W. thank you for your dilligence, your effort, and all your responses., and it seems you were reading my mind, for I was just about to throw that loaded question into the mix

Sad to say but it does seem that a whole lot of Christian folks do feel they need to convince people of an eternal torment in hell if you don't accept Jesus like they have., it is almost as if they try to scare people into heaven., know what i mean?

[Starhunter]

After you sin, are you struck down immediately and die, or do you still live?

No, because Christ upholds the sinners life at His own expense.

BW wrote If God annihilates into non-existence – would not that then fulfill all the definitions and nuances of murder? Therefore to do so, God sins – you really desire this?

My opinion is of no value here, I can only go by what the Bible says.

Starhunter wrote No fruit, no eternal life. (in regards to immortality)

BW wrote Now what is more fearful, eternal recompense or annihilation?

With annihilation, one finds the peace of nothingness would they not? Therefore for instance, a sadist serial killer will actually be getting away with his or her crimes. However, if it is like Jesus says, never ending ruin where one reaps what they sown, then, Jesus’ warning has more power and effect - true absolute justice served.

Think for a moment, if that same serial killer knows he or she can escape into the nothingness you hold dearly too, then would not that only serve to justify the killer's actions all the more since he or she will, in true essence - get away with it? However the central truth principle is found in Isaiah 57:21 – there is NO Peace for the wicked. The bible answers this, does it not?

So you desire to strip God of his justice and commit sin of pitting God's own standards against himself in order to appease your conscience so you can be at ease?

No one finds peace in a judgement and a death sentence. The judgement that God gives is one of full and sane realization. Truth really hurts those who are in love with themselves.

BW wrote Lastly, in Genesis concerning the tree of life, if Adam and Eve partook of that tree after the fall, would not that then mean they would continue to live forever in their mortal bodies as well in a state of rebellion? ... Selah…

Yes, according to what God said, they would "live forever."

So in order to have immortals forever in 'hell' they must eat from the tree. But according to the Bible, they don't have access.

BW wrote Would it also not imply, that God would be completely incapable of keeping his word of warning about the two deaths mentioned in Gen 2:17 …in the day you eat, you will DIE – DIE…?

There are no two deaths mentioned here, Adam and Eve were saved from death that day, because Christ had already arranged the plan of Salvation for them.

]BW wrote So you desire God to prove himself incapable of keeping his word and of committing actual factual cosmic murder of annihilation to appease your senses – how then is that not rebellion and attempting to trap God by pitting his mercy against its self so you’ll be right?

If God destroys evil and its perpetrators, then it is His Divine right and good will to end sin. He cannot and will not endure any more suffering for them, neither will He give life where it is of no value to the receiver or to Himself.
To call the annihilation of corrupted and pointless life, by God, murder is a sin against the Holy Spirit.
We have no idea of how much suffering God has endured.

BW wrote So the answer would be – they are reaping the wages of sin, do you desire to reap such wages or escape through the work of God upon that old rugged cross so to escape the living 2md death?
Oh what price Jesus paid for such an escape and woe upon those bent upon the self torments sin brings… wages of sin is death…

I thought you said people don't die, but live forever in heaven or hell, so why are you talking about death?

BW wrote You do not know metaphors of language do you? 1 Peter 5:8 speaks that the devil walks about like a roaring lion… so is the devil a literal lion? Next, the metaphor that people are dogs means what?

By your posts, - yes most certainly, death would have to be a metaphor, just like lions, dogs and life are all metaphors.

BW wrote Also read the comments above again as these answer you form the bible – what you desire is God to cease being himself so that you be the king, yet, you remain blind to this and smugly justify yourself in doing this too.

I might be a blind king, BW, all the more reason why I can't take credit for writing the Bible.

BW wrote You discount the abundance of verses that clearly explain eternal punishment means never ending as the gift of life altering eternal life is never ending Matt 25:46 as well as all the warning from Jesus and the prophets concerning eternal recompense and the state of the unsaved dead (Job 26:5, Ez 32:19-31, etc and etc).
Fact is, there is peace in annihilation by going into a state of nothingness that actually means that the wicked and rebellions, do indeed get away with their works and deeds.

Well if a murderer does not get death for his crime, then yes, he will get away with it.

In regards to Job 26:5, the original in the KJV, is just so different, as for many of the other texts quoted.

BW wrote Nothing at all terrifying about that, is there? One most certainly can exploit that and justify sinning…
However, never ending reaping what one sows, is more frightening, yet, even with that, people do not listen and instead like you, seek ways to circumvent God’s Justice...

Let God work that one out.

"The living know that they shall die" that's not a metaphor.
"but the dead know not anything" that's a fact. the rest follows Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6.

"Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy...live joyfully with thy wife...for this is your portion in this life and in your labor..."
No metaphors there, that's life.

[Starhunter]

such a matter as this is not essential for one's salvation

Mr. B.W. thank you for your dilligence, your effort, and all your responses., and it seems you were reading my mind, for I was just about to throw that loaded question into the mix

Sad to say but it does seem that a whole lot of Christian folks do feel they need to convince people of an eternal torment in hell if you don't accept Jesus like they have., it is almost as if they try to scare people into heaven., know what i mean?

True doctrine forms a correct view of God's character, even as it is revealed in Christ.
False doctrines are the work of the Devil to destroy knowledge of God,

The prayer of Jesus is "this is eternal life that they may might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent" John 17:3.

[Lonewolf]

The prayer of Jesus is "this is eternal life that they may might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent" John 17:3.

I agree

[Starhunter]

I just wanted to bring up the point BW made about the brazen disregard people may be encouraged to have, if they think that annihilation is just a snap into nothingness.
While I never said that it was as easy as that, I did not take into account of the valid point he made, in more than a couple of posts.

As the saying goes "We have a heaven to gain and a hell to shun."

Separation from God is not something we really experience in this life, because the Holy Spirit dampens that view with comforts, and those who resist this end up quite numb, without any realization that they are separated spiritually.

But on the day of judgement, in the presence of God, this reality will hit home, and we have no idea how painful separation form God is. Jesus knows it by Divinity and by human experience when on the cross He died of a broken heart.
He bore the sins of the world then, it made Him cursed for us.

Those who do not listen to the voice of conscience, will have to experience separation.

So upon reflection I really appreciate what BW posted. Thanks BW.