To congregate or not... Rick'Dee's

[Lonewolf]

Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:04 pm
Perhaps this would be better for a topic, but...

I attended church fairly regularly for a good period of time two years ago. In fact, it surprised me. When my third child came along it got hard and it wasn't beneficial or practical for both my wife and I since she would nurse the baby leaving me there, or I'd be up changing a nappy, and the disadvantages became more than advantages.
Church isn't attending a sermon or a mass. Church also isn't "meeting with God" who is everywhere -- even if people may feel closer to God at some church. Rather "The Church" is the spiritual body of Christ and Christ is the head. There is no legal obligation for Christians to attend or not attend a church congregation.
So as I see things... congregating with other Christians at a church location is not a matter of salvation. It isn't a matter of one's spiritual state or growth. There are advantages and disadvantages from a Christian point of view. That's about it.
As for being "a community in Christ" it is a bit unreal to think that this only has reality in a church congregation. Especially when confronted with words like Jesus' in Matthew 25:31-46 which deals with those out there... in the world outside of a church. I think many of us would remain silent here because we know we often fail to truly be there for others.

First off, I understand what it is ~> having to manage time and taking turns with our offspring., been there, done that thrice myself., everything from work, school, chores, errands, car troubles, etc, etc, etc., but let it all not detract you from having communion with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ., If you have time for all those other things, I’m sure you can make a little time to congregate, be it for a service, a study, for prayer, or to help with a need., having said that, yes, I agree with you that attending church is not a requirement for being saved, and I never said that it was., ~> for where there is two or three or more gathered, gather together in His name (Christ) and He (Christ) will there among., so true!

I disagree as to whether congregating or not, not being a matter of one’s spiritual growth., because I thinketh the opposite., for it does incorporate the basic conception of the church as an organic unity, the body of Christ; 'for just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many ~> are one body, so it is with Christ, for by one Spirit we were all made to drink of the same Spirit.' (1 Cor. 12:13)

Regardless of the dissensions and quarrels within the church, there must be mutual respect, recognition of the value of the other’s contribution and of the necessity for different gifts and capabilities within the church., there’s a diversity of roles within that body of Christ which serves to help edify one another., and those roles are there not just to continue the great commission, but also to ensure the welfare of those in the body; hence 1 Corinthians and the different gifts and roles within that body., from apostles down to administrators., We are called to be Christ’s agents of “reconciliation” ., a version of a new humanity, per say., how then can we be an example to the world if we can not be a community of Saints? How else was Israel kept from being absorbed into the nations in whole body and soul if not by keeping together as a "people" (community) devoted to God!?

I say to my brother Rick who has showed me so great a Love, why? Why not be there for those that need him., for it is not about us, but for them that need us… If you have attained such blessing in understanding, don’t you think that you have a great commission to spread the wealth!?

Wash somebody’s feet my dear brother., nevermind the distractors., be a Sheppard in your own God given gift., Do Not neglect the poor in Spirit!

The state of the Christian community in the public eye is a part of the overall "testimony" given ~> and of grave significance for the church long term effectiveness!

If we grow cold in brotherly love, how then can we be the light of the world? What right do we have to preach Christ?

[RickD]

Lonewolf,

I think you bring up some really good points. But without your knowing me, or my spiritual journey, you're looking at my situation from the outside, without all info available.

Without getting too deep into this, I'll just say this. If it's something, as a brother in Christ, that's important to you, why don't you pray about it? At this point, nothing short of God personally changing my heart, and actually giving me a desire to go to a church, is going to get me to go. If it's His will, he will change my heart.

[Kurieuo]

Your dog avatar is just freaking me out!

Don't get me wrong, there's much good with attending a church.
But, as you agree, our brothers and sisters aren't just in a church.

Also, not everyone flourishes by being in contact with many people.
Some people are more reserved and just prefer a few close people in their life.

Personally, I find greater enrichment from friends I'm lucky enough to have close by.
I'm not a "many person" kind of person, but cherish a few close friends.
It is hard to me to develop close friendships and I find church congregations one of the worst.
You don't get beneath the shell really. And many put on their superficial self.

"Churches" in my experience are often about listening in the audience and being entertained by someone on the pulpit.
Add in a few songs... and well, that's what I get from attending a church congregation.

Many cover their true self, act the Christian part and then go home feeling good, convicted, moved or motivated.
Then the next Sunday comes around, nothing much really changes and the cycle repeats.
It becomes a ritualised event. Definitely not organic. And often members of a church are rarely used or activated.
Except sadly to help fund a certain elite in that church to continue in their well-intention and sometimes very good ministries.

I'm sure many others experience the same. That's not "church" really...
But, I did get a bit from it... and it's good for the kids.

There is a group one of my friends goes to of fairly like-minded people that I may attend.
From the sounds of it, joining this group would be quite healthy.
But, just like you can't force your friends, you can't force a church.

We're still people at the end of the day, and even at church you either click with people or you don't.
So if you're lucky enough to find a group of like-minded individuals in a church that's great.

However, no one should beat themselves up over not being at a church.
Ideally, they should at least have some Christians to dialogue with.
Otherwise I can imagine it could be quite a depressing affair -- living in the world we live.

Finally, you don't need to be a part of a church to show brotherly love.
And the Church -- those a part the real Church... who make up the body of Christ... will always be a light because of Christ's work in us.
We should do our best to let it shine, whether that means participating in a church, or outside of a church.

Hopefully we can all agree that no one should be made to feel guilty over not being part of a church.

[PaulSacramento]

I think the issue is kind of a simple one:
WHY are you going to church?
Is it to be in fellowship with other Christians? Great.
Is it because that only there do you get the "spiritual food" you need? Ok ( not great mind you, but fair enough).
Is it because you feel you HAVE to? Not good IMO.
Is it because you feel you NEED to or you are not being a good Christian? Not good either IMO.
Is it because you feel guilty if you don't? Why?

[theophilus]

If it's something, as a brother in Christ, that's important to you, why don't you pray about it? At this point, nothing short of God personally changing my heart, and actually giving me a desire to go to a church, is going to get me to go. If it's His will, he will change my heart.

What if he gives you a command to go to church?

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
(Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV)

I have found that if I do something because God commands it and not because I feel like doing it he will then change my heart so that I want to obey.

[RickD]

If it's something, as a brother in Christ, that's important to you, why don't you pray about it? At this point, nothing short of God personally changing my heart, and actually giving me a desire to go to a church, is going to get me to go. If it's His will, he will change my heart.

What if he gives you a command to go to church?

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
(Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV)

I have found that if I do something because God commands it and not because I feel like doing it he will then change my heart so that I want to obey.

I think you're taking that verse to mean something it wasn't meant to mean. That verse certainly wasn't a command by God. It was an exhortation by the author to a specific audience. And even if it were written to us(which it wasn't), it's just an urging to meet together. Doesn't say anything about having to go to church to meet together.

[Lonewolf]

Your dog avatar is just freaking me out!..

what dog avatar?., that's not a dog., that's a lone cat without no hair left

but alright, i'll go find my o.g. avatar and post it up

[Philip]

It really doesn't matter what we FEEL about regularly coming together with fellow believers (and WHATEVER that looks like, that IS church), as God has given us His model for what Christians should be doing in the New Testament, and He's given and shown us many important reasons for doing so. So if one avoids that, they are deliberately avoiding what God has instructed Christians to do. And if one waits until they FEEL like doing what God has already shown He want them to - well, I don't think that's a very Scriptural barometer as to what we should do.

What I've found is that fear, doubt, anxiety, and past hurts (church damage), and sometimes aggravation of what dealing with other Christians might sometimes entail, keeps many from church. And so to let such things rule us, to keep them from doing as God has shown us we should - well, that's going to hurt oneself and others they should be impacting. If the first Christians had all stayed "Lone Rangers," then we wouldn't even be Christians. Lone Rangers are short-changing themselves over what God can and will show them through other believers, and what He can show them through you. And so it's not all about US! What I've found is if God calls me to it, He will help me come to terms with it and He has important purposes in it. New situations always can bring anxiety. I am the rebel of rebels and fiercely independent. I stayed home a VERY long time. And my first church experiences were a mixed bag. But once I became determined and prayerful about WHERE God wanted me, realizing my only (but important) responsibility was to at least sincerely seek a local church body. And what If found was that I didn't realize what I had been missing. But it started with stepping out in faith to seek where God might lead us (wife, too). And He taught us both very important things at every church we spent time, even though those weren't ultimately where we ended up. And so many fantastic people have been met along our journey. Yep, staying home is safe, but is highly limiting and shortchanging on MANY fronts. And it's just not what God has shown us He wants us to do - no matter WHAT our feelings may be.

[Byblos]

You're forgetting another important factor, catholi-phobia. The tendency is to shy as far away as possible from anything resembling Catholic practices.

[PaulSacramento]

Well, IF we go by the model of the NT then people should be coming together in their homes and not some building.
1st and 2nd century models of fellowship were "house churches".
Now, I recall the great commissions of Christ to His apostles as per Matthew and Acts, but I don't recall His commandment to "meet up and here someone preach from the pulpit".
I think that the 1st and second generation "unions in fellowship" had very little resemblance to what we see in churches nowadays.
They were personal, inter-relational, people came together in fellowship, TRUE fellowship:
The spoke and interacted with each other, the laughed, they cried, they were friends.
They argued and debated and discussed and worshiped TOGETHER.
I doubt here were any "prearranged" sermons or the "yearly sermons" being all planned out in advance and so forth.

[Lonewolf]

Lonewolf,

I think you bring up some really good points. But without your knowing me, or my spiritual journey, you're looking at my situation from the outside, without all info available.

Without getting too deep into this, I'll just say this. If it's something, as a brother in Christ, that's important to you, why don't you pray about it? At this point, nothing short of God personally changing my heart, and actually giving me a desire to go to a church, is going to get me to go. If it's His will, he will change my heart.

Please don't get me wrong, Rick., I been there myself., but you're right, I don't know the details of your journey., who knows but you and the Lord

As to praying about it ~> most of my praying nowadays is not necessarily on my knees and hands clasped., most of my prayers are done in thought and action and in words., words from the heart

The Lord already knows what we want, but sometimes we just don't allow His Spirit to act within us., we resist Him., we as disciples know what is correct to do but yet we throw our own excuses and roadblocks.
We ask the Lord to show us the way., to use us., day in and day out, we pray and wish for that to happen in some miraculous way., but do we really need that type of miracles? Are we in unbelief like Thomas was?
The call to prayer, to endurance, to edification, to evangelizing, to action and fellowship is always there., there's no need for a miracle in that regards, for the miracle has already been given to us., that is
~> our reconciliation with Him

Do you think that our Lord got up every morning and said, well, all these people have cause such great trouble and pain, such that I will not overcome that and remain only to those around me that feel where I'm coming from!?

The Apostles were a community, the disciples were a community, the world of the congregations which they helped to establish in Christ ~> were communities., believers communities..
each one of those believers did not do it alone., neither did they select just some few to be their community., no! ., the whole body of Christ was their community., they went to and fro., they partook in each other's edification

Paul's letters teach us so., and Jesus walks through the land demonstrate that He was "in touch" with the community., be it local, national, or personal., He was there in the midst.

One can surely be alone or semi-alone in Christ everyday and be blessed plentiful., there's no doubt about that., but there's also no doubt that we are called to be a "family" ., not just a household family, but a communal family as well!

My prayers in thought and words from my heart are with you always., years from now, whether we still communicate or not, I will be with you in thought and spirit.,
and I will be neither complete nor comfortable thinking that you have not found a fellowship house of worship

As I said before, I was detached for the good part of 3 decades., seeing the same things and experiencing the same reasons most of us have when we detach ourselves, or, in a manner of speaking ~> forced to exit out
So I'm not judging you saying you're not saved, or that you need to/have to, or whatever., i'm not saying that at all to you or anybody., all i hope for is for you to reattach yourself to the congregation
The Lord remained with me through my absence., but as Teofilo posted the scripture ~> Hebrews 10:24-25, and so whether or not it is a command, the reasoning is still there for having fellowship with one another

In the early church days I've read, that meeting on the regular took place in either synagogues, or in people's homes., either one served to assemble as one in Christ., but we were to assemble nevertheless!

[Philip]

Well, IF we go by the model of the NT then people should be coming together in their homes and not some building.
1st and 2nd century models of fellowship were "house churches".

It doesn't matter what the community of believers one meets with LOOKS like or whether it is big or small. House churches were the norm at one time because of wide-spread persecution and the small, dispersed locations of believers. Not to mention the cost of building, travel and proximity isues. Churches growing in numbers are a GOOD thing. And small, house groups can also prosper and proliferate amongst large churches.

The Apostles were a community, the disciples were a community, the world of the congregations which they helped to establish in Christ ~> were communities., believers communities.. each one of those believers did not do it alone

And so, that's it, building community is part of the model God established for His churches - all of which make up THE Church. Rather than something to be feared, seeking out community with other Christians should be looked upon as a wonderful OPPORTUNITY that breaks the perils and negatives of our isolation and creates all kinds of things that God can bless. And while we here on G&S are our own type of Christian community, it does have many limitations and there are things that are important that makes meeting with others in the flesh important. Also, being a Christian community admidst the surrounding community of unbelievers is also very important - and offers many more exciting opportunities and possibilities to reach unbelievers for Christ.

[Kurieuo]

You're forgetting another important factor, catholi-phobia. The tendency is to shy as far away as possible from anything resembling Catholic practices.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

FORGET CHURCH

Go to a Messianic synagogue with your new Shelby! Think of the rumble the engine will make when you pull into the parking lot filled with VWs and Camrys and other sissymobiles!

FL

[RickD]

FORGET CHURCH

Go to a Messianic synagogue with your new Shelby! Think of the rumble the engine will make when you pull into the parking lot filled with VWs and Camrys and other sissymobiles!

FL

Shelby is my girlfriend. I couldn't very well take her and my wife! That would be awkward!