Could it be that salvation is not by faith alone..

[Lonewolf]

..but that it must be completed by good works?

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27, 30
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.
I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD.


Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Philippians 2:12
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

James 1:22
Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

James 2:14, 17, 21-25
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

[RickD]

I'm pretty sure it's by grace through faith. And NOT of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But of course nobody here is going to tell you that you took all those verses out of context to say what you want them to say.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

But of course nobody here is going to tell you that you took all those verses out of context to say what you want them to say.

I will now practice my newfound political correctness.

Ahem...If the newborn Christian feels he must perform good works in order to secure his salvation, then who are we to discourage him? We who are assured of our faith by grace alone must encourage our weaker brothers in the self-sacrificial offering of their efforts, their wages and whatever else they are willing to devote God as atonement for their sins and as witness of their newbirth in the Spirit.

Indeed, you who are strong, have you never been weak? you who are mature & secure, have you never been a babe & worried? O! Let us who are Strong see in the newborn Christian's desire to offer sacrifices a testimony of their Love for God!

So, let them be. Who are we to judge another man's servant?

FL

[Lonewolf]

I'm pretty sure it's by grace through faith. And NOT of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But of course nobody here is going to tell you that you took all those verses out of context to say what you want them to say.

I'm asking a question or two Rick, that's all. But if you feel like "I" took those verses out of context, would you care to explain them each within their proper context?

I'm all ears


Luke 12:42-48
And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

[RickD]

Lonewolf wrote:
I'm asking a question or two Rick, that's all. But if you feel like "I" took those verses out of context, would you care to explain them each within their proper context?

I won't have time to go through them all until later. But in the meantime, read each verse in context, and ask yourself where it's referring to salvation. I bet if you do only that, you'll eliminate many of those verses from your question.

Again, show from context, where each verse is actually referring to salvation. Once you've eliminated the verses that were cherry picked, then we can discuss the remaining verses.

[PaulSacramento]

Salvation is based on what God has done for Us, not what we have done for God ( especially if what we are doing IS so that we can be saved, tainted much?).
That said, where does Paul ( or anyone say) that good deeds are a bad thing? that they don't count AT ALL?
Paul says that we are saved by Grace and faith SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST and that passage is very important.
Christ said much the same thing when He spoke of the arrogant Pharisee that believed himself more worthy than the poor woman because He had done all these "good works".

IMO, many of those passages (especially James) were directed at those that proclaimed to have faith BUT it was obvious by their LACK of action in demonstrating that faith, that perhaps their faith was not what it should be, not in WHO it should be.
OT passages were written at a time when good works was mandated by God to set apart Israel from their pagan neighbours, so it was a crucial element in the Torah.

I don't doubt that the writers of the NT gospels and letter understood that we are saved bu God's grace BUT at the same time they wanted to instill in people the importance of not forgetting to do good works and how we would be judged on not doing them KNOWING WE SHOULD do them.

I think more crucial than the whole "are we saved by faith or works" is WHAT WORKS should we be doing.

[melanie]

We are not saved by good works we are saved and therefore by Gods love strive for good works.
There seems to be and has been for centuries a thought that it is one or the other, we are either saved by good works or saved by faith. Scripture can be plucked to support both sides, but it really isn't or shouldn't be one or the other. Scripture marries and ties the two in perfectly when all taken into context together.
We are saved by faith.
This is I think first and foremost.
But faith with no fruit really isn't faith at all. Anyone can profess Christ. But our Father sees through the superficial and straight into our motivations and our heart. The Pharisees professed God louder than anybody, they were sure of it, counted on it, used it as their bar to judge everyone around them. They observed the sabbath, they gave their tithes, they fasted, their outwardly faith was abundant but their hearts were empty. They used their good works as a clarification of how good THEY were not how good God is.
This is where I think so many Christians get it wrong.
They give glory to themselves not to their Father.
Look how much money I gave, look how gracious I am, look how well I've raised my children so that they are respectful and 'good', look at how much patience I just showed, look how much love I just gave. Yep God is good, I'm not doing these good works because I want them to save me but because I am a good Christian. Hallelujah to God and good on me.
They are not OUR good works.
They are GODS works that He brings forth through us because we have faith and have given our lives over to HIm.
We can not take credit for them. Give the glory back to our Father. Without Him we would be nothing, lost in sin and lost in the world. HE gives us the grace and understanding of others, HE grants us the patience, He gives us the wisdom to raise our children in His light, HE fills our hearts with love.
Every time we wrestle with the world and we win, glory does not belong to us, it belongs to The Almighty.
We thank God for His blessings, we thank Him for our food, we thank Him for our friends and family.
Do we thank Him for our kindness?
Do we thank Him for our love?
Do we thank Him for our patience?
Do we thank Him for our understanding?
Do we thank Him for our generosity?
Or do we give credit to ourselves. We live a good life, because we know better, because we are Christian.
Our works don't belong to us.
If we think they do, then we are exalting ourselves to highly.
We are saved by faith, our faith through Gods glory strives us towards good works, when we achieve them, all glory is the Fathers, never our own. So we can never be saved by our good works because they are never ours to begin with, but they are our fruits that should be apparent through faith because our Father never leaves His sheep unattended or carefully looked over and after.

[Lonewolf]

Salvation is based on what God has done for Us, not what we have done for God ( especially if what we are doing IS so that we can be saved, tainted much?).
That said, where does Paul ( or anyone say) that good deeds are a bad thing? that they don't count AT ALL?
Paul says that we are saved by Grace and faith SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST and that passage is very important.
Christ said much the same thing when He spoke of the arrogant Pharisee that believed himself more worthy than the poor woman because He had done all these "good works".

IMO, many of those passages (especially James) were directed at those that proclaimed to have faith BUT it was obvious by their LACK of action in demonstrating that faith, that perhaps their faith was not what it should be, not in WHO it should be.
OT passages were written at a time when good works was mandated by God to set apart Israel from their pagan neighbours, so it was a crucial element in the Torah.

I don't doubt that the writers of the NT gospels and letter understood that we are saved bu God's grace BUT at the same time they wanted to instill in people the importance of not forgetting to do good works and how we would be judged on not doing them KNOWING WE SHOULD do them.

I think more crucial than the whole "are we saved by faith or works" is WHAT WORKS should we be doing.

^ ^ I agree

The verses that many quote regarding not being saved by "works" are verses referring to works under the Mosaic Law. By law no one was declared righteous. No matter how much the Law of Moses was observed, its Sabbaths, offerings, and decrees, those works would not earn one salvation. The law was removed at Christ's death (Acts 13:39), and now we live by faith through grace (Ephesians 2:8).

But other verses such as James 2:26 state that "faith without works is dead.”

And..

Matthew 10:22
"And you will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."

Thus we come to read in Philippians 2:12
“Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

^ ^ This I take it to mean that you must continue to “work” for your salvation in Christ.

Therefore, there is some “works” involved in the process, no?

[PaulSacramento]

Here is the thing,
There are different standards for believers and non-believers ( sucks but it seems to be true).
In terms of salvation for the believer, all that is required is faith, TRUE faith, in Christ as per John 5:24
BUT for the unbeliever who will be judged on his/her works then what they do and WHY the do it is crucial.
OF COURSE the other side of the coin is that believers ARE TOLD to do certain things because they are believers and those things are what?
The bible is filled with examples of course BUT since James is often used as an example, like you quoted above, what does James say about WHICH works are crucial?

26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” 16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

etc, etc...

[RickD]

I'm pretty sure it's by grace through faith. And NOT of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But of course nobody here is going to tell you that you took all those verses out of context to say what you want them to say.

I'm asking a question or two Rick, that's all. But if you feel like "I" took those verses out of context, would you care to explain them each within their proper context?

I'm all ears


Luke 12:42-48
And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Lonewolf,

I'm not going to explain every cherry picked verse you posted. If you want, eliminate all verses in which the context is not salvation. Then, I'll help you with the remaining few verses.

[Lonewolf]

I said it before, and i guess I'll have to say it again., what I ask, what I post, what I have problems in grasping and what I believe are not all necessarily all the same.

You call it cherry picking ~> when I may just be simply asking or testing people in the know to answer and/or correct ~> maybe even explain it? !!!

There's no question whatsoever in my heart that there's anything that I can do to be saved; thus it is not by works.
My LORD is the One who has given freely for me to obtain.

But does that mean that we get a free pass after we confess and then go about life like the rest of the world does?

Or is there a work to be done? And if you don't work, can you then sit and eat and drink?

[Byblos]

I said it before, and i guess I'll have to say it again., what I ask, what I post, what I have problems in grasping and what I believe are not all necessarily all the same.

You call it cherry picking ~> when I may just be simply asking or testing people in the know to answer and/or correct ~> maybe even explain it? !!!

There's no question whatsoever in my heart that there's anything that I can do to be saved; thus it is not by works.
My LORD is the One who has given freely for me to obtain.

But does that mean that we get a free pass after we confess and then go about life like the rest of the world does?

Or is there a work to be done? And if you don't work, can you then sit and eat and drink?

What your question boils down to in the end is whether or not one is always saved even if they become apostates (belief in OSAS). As a Catholic I don't believe in OSAS but I don't believe in a works based salvation either. Many here vehemently disagree with me on that. Which brings us to the real fundamental question of authority. Resolve the question of authority and you've got your answers.

[jlay]

Does anyone really understand the nature of fruit and works?

Let's start with fruit. How does a person generate fruit? Since these terms are from a agrarian culture, they certainly understood the process. A tree doesn't strive to produce fruit. If we are to produce love then what do we need to "do?" We need to be rooted in love. God's love is demonstrated how? While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The fruit of love is the natural produce of being loved. It isn't focusing on the output but the input, which is Christ's love for us. So, if you are looking at the lack of love in your own life then your eyes aren't on Christ. In other words, you are assuming that your ability to love is up to you. It isn't. Fix your eyes on Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith. We love because.........He FIRST loved us.

Religion focuses on you and what you are and aren't doing. It provides you a list of things to do and not to do, to prove you are worthy or legit. If you want religion, fine, there is plenty of it. But it is not the abundant life. The abundant life declares you are worthy. God has made you worthy. He has loved you, forgiven you, redeemed you, restored you, and blessed you while demanding nothing of you. It is grace. He saved you not because of the righteous things you have done but because of His mercy. (Titus 3:5) For goodness sake He even made you righteous. And all you need to do is take God at his word. Why in the world do people trust Christ and then assume that a vibrant Christian walk is accomplished by returning to the Law?

If you think you are a 'genuine' believer because you are acting better than other people, then you need to ask if you are producing fruit in keeping with repentance (the new mind). There is a good chance you are some sort of legalist and in turn, it's possible you haven't completely trusted Christ. If you think works, such as tithing, praying, going to church, not cussing, etc. etc, are some sort of religious duty then you are not living out of His abundance, but out our your own resource.

Paul says that God has prepared works beforehand that we should walk in them. Should. Not, "will automatically walk in them." Or, "must walk in them to prove we are really saved." Of course, we should walk in them. Why? Because we are able to walk in them. We are able, because God has prepared not only the works, but also has prepared us through redemption and the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately many of us fail to do so. In fact, the Bible addresses carnal believers, believers who have fallen pray to legalism, and those have taken their eyes off Christ.

Let me tell you, if you think that your efforts (post or pre salvation) contribute, confirm, complete or validate your salvation, then you have no assurance and no security. Because your salvation is based on you and your efforts. And last I checked, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

[PaulSacramento]

The way I look at it has always been this way:
Intent.
It is because of intent that no works can assure any man of salvation.
Doing what is right because we WANT something out of it is, well, wrong.
Since humans ALWAYS do something with ulterior motive ( "tarnished intent") then NOTHING they can do in terms of WORKS is "good enough" to earn salvation.

That said, the moment we do realize that we are saved by faith and God's love and grace and DO good things for NO OTHER reason than love, these good things will be noted by God.