Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

[Philip]

What would you say to one that believes a close relative is saved because she (apparently, "sincerely" (?) prayed for Jesus to save her, and of her desire to follow Him, and for forgiveness of her sins - and yet that person has stated that she does not yet understand Jesus to be God - (she sees Him as only the son (and of non Deity) of God the Father). Responses, please.

Now, I know what I think (and have already offered my view), but I wanted to see how others might respond. It's a very sensitive subject, as my friend so wants to know that the person in question is truly saved, and even suggesting the mere possibility that this is not so has brought considerable anger - to which I responded that, "it's not about YOU, what you think, your feelings, or what you'd LIKE to be the truth, but about Scripture and whatever the reality of the situation actually happens to be" - a direct response, perhaps, but politely put.

[Ivellious]

My word might not mean much here, but this was my first thought: If you believe Jesus is your savior, and accept Jesus as such, then obviously you have some faith in the Bible. So why only take the Bible's word halfway? As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is exceptionally clear that Jesus is the divine son of God and God in the flesh, so to speak. It's not really an issue of interpretation (as, say, Genesis might be), it's quite bluntly stated. So, you are essentially saying that you accept the Bible when it clearly states Jesus is your savior, but not the parts that clearly state Jesus is God.

Once that is made clear, I guess the only place to go from there is to ask, "why do you believe this?" Perhaps this person is getting information about Christianity or theology from a non-biblical source, or simply has difficulty understanding the concept of God in human form (or the holy trinity). That's my two cents, anyway.

[Philip]

Perhaps this person is getting information about Christianity or theology from a non-biblical source, or simply has difficulty understanding the concept of God in human form (or the holy trinity). That's my two cents, anyway.

Ivellious, it's the issue of not understanding or comprehending that multiple persons are within the Trinitarian Godhead - so it's a matter of not correctly understanding Who and exact WHAT Jesus is. But my assertion is that one must believe that Jesus is GOD, or else you don't have faith in the TRUE Jesus and you haven't accepted Him as He truly is. And until Jesus is believed in AS GOD, I don't think such a person is a Christian. This is an elderly lady - but a very sharp and smart one - that I speak of. And I know how much we'd all like to think she is saved. And I think she may well be very close. But all of the cults have a false belief about Who Jesus really is. And I think a person can have all kinds of misconceptions about God, Jesus, theology or Scripture. But I think belief that believing Jesus is God is one of the definitive and required things one must do to become a Christian. And I don't think my understanding is adding to what Scripture teaches about becoming a Christian or is some unScriptural thing like "Lordship Salvation."

[melanie]

A question was asked on here just recently, "do we limit God"
The answer is YES
We limit His love, His compassion, His mercy.
Every single time one of His children fall it pains Him more than we could ever imagine. What would we do if one of our children walked away, denounced us as parents, wanted nothing to do with us. It is a hurt that cuts so very deep. Our Father hurts, He feels sorrow, He feels pain. A thousand gazillion times more than we do, because He loves a thousand gazillion times more than we ever possibly could.
For a person, not just a person, one of His children to be cast away from His Kingdom, is a sorrow so great. Our Father has left the door wide open, waiting, willing, for them to come to Him, and sadly and tradegically they have not stepped into His open arms. Every single time it happens, it hurts Him intensely. Beyond what words can describe.
In our broken, human state we theologise His wisdom. His love. His mercy. His compassion. We take scripture and try and decipher who will make it into His kingdom, but we are not even slightly worthy to make such assumptions. We throw passages around from the bible and forget His nature. We never, ever have the right to pass judgment or assume who is saved. Only one is worthy of that task. Our creator. Only He who gives life could ever hold the wisdom as to whom should lose it.
You see according to man perhaps this person did not believe just right, or say theologically just the right thing but God is NOT man. He is a loving Father that is holding the door open, waiting in anticipation as a parent waits for their long lost child to come home. They would never close that door in haste or in spite,and neither does our Father.
He knows what lies in the heart.
Let's presume they have said Father I believe in you, I believe that your son Jesus came to this earth, died and sacrificed Himself so that I might have my sins washed clean. He sits on your right hand, okay perhaps they have not quite grasped the concept that Jesus is in essence God, but they have acknowledged He is the son, and redeemer.
And Our Father says??
Close, really close but not quite there.
And slams the door in their face!
Not my Father
Not my loving, compassionate, forgiving, merciful Lord.
My advice, comfort your friend, speak of Gods mercy, His love, His compassion, His Almighty wisdom that sees directly into our hearts. Give her HOPE.
From the greatest to the least, that is all we can do is HOPE.
HOPE, that His love for us surpasses His condemnation.
And it does.

[RickD]

Philip,

I think you know what my response is going to be on this. I try to keep it simple.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Whoever believes in/trusts Christ will have eternal life. One must believe in who Christ is, and what He has done. Christ is the perfect, unblemished sacrifice. The only way He could be perfect, would be if He is God.

Trusting in a Christ who IS NOT God, is not really trusting in Christ at all. Trusting in a false Christ for salvation, is no better than trusting in pigeon poop.

With that being said, some people just have a difficult time understanding that God came in the flesh. I guess that's where we need to do our part in explaining from scripture, that Jesus Christ is God.

[melanie]

Scripture makes it very clear.
Nobody gets to the Father but through Jesus.
We must acknowledge, believe that Jesus paid our price on that cross.
The bible does NOT say that to be saved we must believe in the trinity and state that Jesus is God.
It simply doesn't.
If it was the requirement of salvation, that we must state this exactly,
God would have told us.
People can argue that theologically it's obvious, and I personally believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' Divinity, but the bible tells us;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments.
And believe that Jesus paid our price on the cross.
Scripture. Truth. Salvation.
No-where does it say we Must profess Jesus to be God to be saved. We may understand that to be true. But thank goodness The Almighty knows and sees our weaknesses and our human inability to grasp the divine and exercises His mind boggling grace and mercy anyway.

[B. W.]

What would you say to one that believes a close relative is saved because she (apparently, "sincerely" (?) prayed for Jesus to save her, and of her desire to follow Him, and for forgiveness of her sins - and yet that person has stated that she does not yet understand Jesus to be God - (she sees Him as only the son (and of non Deity) of God the Father). Responses, please.

Now, I know what I think (and have already offered my view), but I wanted to see how others might respond. It's a very sensitive subject, as my friend so wants to know that the person in question is truly saved, and even suggesting the mere possibility that this is not so has brought considerable anger - to which I responded that, "it's not about YOU, what you think, your feelings, or what you'd LIKE to be the truth, but about Scripture and whatever the reality of the situation actually happens to be" - a direct response, perhaps, but politely put.

Ever heard of baby steps?

Rom 8:30 "...and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified (G1344); and these whom He justified (G1344), He also glorified." NASB

The word translated justified in Romans 8:30 is dikaioo (G1344). Its basic meaning is this: "to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous." Therefore when it is God who pronounces - then who can stop it as it is written in Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 46:10, Psalms 33:11 and add to this to Romans 10:10-13. One begins somewhere. From the series of words which are translated righteous, righteousness, justified, justification, etc, all share the same Greek root word dikē (dee'-kay) and all share its meaning in their respective shades of meaning. dikē - dee'-kay - in its simplest Christian form simply means "to live right before God and Man." That expression contains the basic idea of its secular meaning - "of conformity to societies standards of civilized laws and the consequences of of breaking or not breaking these standards."

Unfortunately, our modern Western Christian traditions limits this word and all these words to purely legalistic terms of Judaical justice. The problem with this is that it limits the impact of the word and leaves out the primary focus which involves: ability to live right wisely before God and Man. This is the true essence of this root word. In other words, it leaves out that God will carry this out despite ourselves - living right wisely before God and man - how - because he declared it over those that come to him in the most simplest of terms - Grace (Rom 10:10-13, Eph 2:8-10). Now re-read the verse again:

Rom 8:30 "...and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified (Declared that they can live right wisely before God and man); and these whom He justified (Declared that they can live right wisely before God and man), He also glorified." NASB

In other words - baby steps. The steps of a good person are order of the Lord as the bible mentions. Your friend, though she does not know all things about Jesus, will in due time, why - God declared it and none can stop it. People become born again as John 3:14-21 mentions. They may not yet know all things about the Lord, or the work of sanctification begun within. So it behooves us to teach these youngsters - baby steps - and therefore Phillip - you have a role to play, don't you?

Infants don't know much, but they do grow. So this individual will grow into what God ordained and all that that pertains because she met the conditional entry point to salvation - Grace. God takes over from there, using folks like yourself to help mature and instruct these little ones. God placed you here and us all here for a reason so walk in it - how - by grace.

God bless and hope this helps...
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[FlawedIntellect]

Scripture makes it very clear.
Nobody gets to the Father but through Jesus.
We must acknowledge, believe that Jesus paid our price on that cross.
The bible does NOT say that to be saved we must believe in the trinity and state that Jesus is God.
It simply doesn't.
If it was the requirement of salvation, that we must state this exactly,
God would have told us.
People can argue that theologically it's obvious, and I personally believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' Divinity, but the bible tells us;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments.
And believe that Jesus paid our price on the cross.
Scripture. Truth. Salvation.
No-where does it say we Must profess Jesus to be God to be saved. We may understand that to be true. But thank goodness The Almighty knows and sees our weaknesses and our human inability to grasp the divine and exercises His mind boggling grace and mercy anyway.

Would you want to be around someone who loves you for what you're not?

Or would you want someone to accept you for what and who you are?

God accepts people for what and who they are. The problem is that most don't accept God for who and what he is. Those who deny that Jesus is God are the ones whom are limiting God.

By denying his Godhood, one is essentially denying that he is the Savior. It's a contradiction to call him "savior" and the way to God, and yet to deny that Jesus is God. In short, such people are not truly accepting Jesus, because they're not accepting him for who he is. They're accepting a lie. They are rejecting him.

Do you believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be or not? That is the question.

Also, isn't scripture our source of information on who and what God is, his nature?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're still missing the point.

If you're worried that scripture can be taken out of context to give false justification to hurting people, well, that does happen. However, to know if it's what's happening, take it on a case-by-case basis rather than already starting with the assumption that it is the case.

As best as I can tell, that's not what's happening here right now.
No one's trying to hurt anyone here, but rather this thread is for discussion to bring clarity and help.

Please bare that in mind.

Also, a line needs to be drawn somewhere on what qualifies as salvation.

[melanie]

Scripture makes it very clear.
Nobody gets to the Father but through Jesus.
We must acknowledge, believe that Jesus paid our price on that cross.
The bible does NOT say that to be saved we must believe in the trinity and state that Jesus is God.
It simply doesn't.
If it was the requirement of salvation, that we must state this exactly,
God would have told us.
People can argue that theologically it's obvious, and I personally believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' Divinity, but the bible tells us;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments.
And believe that Jesus paid our price on the cross.
Scripture. Truth. Salvation.
No-where does it say we Must profess Jesus to be God to be saved. We may understand that to be true. But thank goodness The Almighty knows and sees our weaknesses and our human inability to grasp the divine and exercises His mind boggling grace and mercy anyway.

Would you want to be around someone who loves you for what you're not?

Or would you want someone to accept you for what and who you are?

God accepts people for what and who they are. The problem is that most don't accept God for who and what he is. Those who deny that Jesus is God are the ones whom are limiting God.

By denying his Godhood, one is essentially denying that he is the Savior. It's a contradiction to call him "savior" and the way to God, and yet to deny that Jesus is God. In short, such people are not truly accepting Jesus, because they're not accepting him for who he is. They're accepting a lie. They are rejecting him.

Do you believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be or not? That is the question.

Also, isn't scripture our source of information on who and what God is, his nature?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're still missing the point.

If you're worried that scripture can be taken out of context to give false justification to hurting people, well, that does happen. However, to know if it's what's happening, take it on a case-by-case basis rather than already starting with the assumption that it is the case.

As best as I can tell, that's not what's happening here right now.
No one's trying to hurt anyone here, but rather this thread is for discussion to bring clarity and help.

Please bare that in mind.

Also, a line needs to be drawn somewhere on what qualifies as salvation.

That is the question?
What I believe?
I don't think that was the question actually lol
Unless of course you have made it so, if that's the case, I think it's kinda obvious.
A line needs to be drawn, by whom, by you? By man? I think we should leave salvation up to God, He's pretty good at it. Much better than you or I.
I never assumed anyone was getting hurt?? Or taking scripture out of context to hurt others, or using this thread topic to hurt others? So no, I'm not worried, Phillip seems to me to be a smart, kind man, I'm sure he isn't out to hurt but to help. Phillip asked 'but I wanted to see how others would respond' well that was my response. As you said, it's a discussion. That's what people do, put their opinion out there, and not everyone agrees. It's okay. We don't have too.
I get very clearly what is being said, I haven't missed the point, I just have a slightly different point. Again, it's okay. Not an attack on anyone, just my opinion.
Scripture is a very good way to know Gods nature, as is His Holy Spirit, that lives inside us. A lot can be learnt from being 'with' Him, being in His presence, in His love. I have learnt the most of His nature from my relationship with our Father. He teaches and I learn, and the biggest most important thing I have learnt is of His love, compassion and forgiveness. It has brought me to my knees, a few times I have sobbed like a big ole baby, because His love overwhelms me.
His nature is LOVE. That knows no limitations or boundaries.

[Philip]

Yes, I agree that coming to full knowledge or rather embracing all God requires from us IS a process. However, with the person in question, this process appears incomplete. Even still, she may never see Jesus as Being God. Now she has been informed, if she never embraces it, how could we ever believe she is saved? At least by what we know from Scripture. I just think that 1) we have no Scriptural basis to presently state she is saved - although she might be close to going the rest of the way. A Catholic whom does not even realize her church teaches Jesus is God, she apparently thinks this is merely a Protestant belief. She is a hyper-sensitive and very difficult person and I we'll realize clarification needs to come from another. There are a couple of people that are both qualified and that she has FAR closer relationships with. So I'm talking to them about how they could help.

But if we ASSUME that what BW asserts MIGHT be happening, well, we could also assume that many in cults believing in the Son (but also not as God) are going to be saved as well, due to (willful?) misunderstandings. But it would appear that, with good reason to hope that she may eventually understand and embrace WHAT Jesus is - the verdict is still out, as although we know what GOD wants on this, He will not FORCE her to embrace what she must. And I say that UNTIL she does so, she is not yet saved. And I believe ALL who will be saved, will eventually embrace Jesus as God before they die. IF one truly wants to be saved and wants to believe, if only they had adequate understandings to do so, then God will provide all a person individually needs to come to faith. It's not as if God wants to deny people adequate information to respond as He so desires and requires. And so God's gift of free will offers us a choice of unimaginable eternal joy or punishment - but God will not FORCE our ultimate decision. Although He will do all necessary to influence us to make the decision He so passionately desires.

[FlawedIntellect]

Scripture makes it very clear.
Nobody gets to the Father but through Jesus.
We must acknowledge, believe that Jesus paid our price on that cross.
The bible does NOT say that to be saved we must believe in the trinity and state that Jesus is God.
It simply doesn't.
If it was the requirement of salvation, that we must state this exactly,
God would have told us.
People can argue that theologically it's obvious, and I personally believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' Divinity, but the bible tells us;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments.
And believe that Jesus paid our price on the cross.
Scripture. Truth. Salvation.
No-where does it say we Must profess Jesus to be God to be saved. We may understand that to be true. But thank goodness The Almighty knows and sees our weaknesses and our human inability to grasp the divine and exercises His mind boggling grace and mercy anyway.

Would you want to be around someone who loves you for what you're not?

Or would you want someone to accept you for what and who you are?

God accepts people for what and who they are. The problem is that most don't accept God for who and what he is. Those who deny that Jesus is God are the ones whom are limiting God.

By denying his Godhood, one is essentially denying that he is the Savior. It's a contradiction to call him "savior" and the way to God, and yet to deny that Jesus is God. In short, such people are not truly accepting Jesus, because they're not accepting him for who he is. They're accepting a lie. They are rejecting him.

Do you believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be or not? That is the question.

Also, isn't scripture our source of information on who and what God is, his nature?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're still missing the point.

If you're worried that scripture can be taken out of context to give false justification to hurting people, well, that does happen. However, to know if it's what's happening, take it on a case-by-case basis rather than already starting with the assumption that it is the case.

As best as I can tell, that's not what's happening here right now.
No one's trying to hurt anyone here, but rather this thread is for discussion to bring clarity and help.

Please bare that in mind.

Also, a line needs to be drawn somewhere on what qualifies as salvation.

That is the question?
What I believe?
I don't think that was the question actually lol
Unless of course you have made it so, if that's the case, I think it's kinda obvious.
A line needs to be drawn, by whom, by you? By man? I think we should leave salvation up to God, He's pretty good at it. Much better than you or I.
I never assumed anyone was getting hurt?? Or taking scripture out of context to hurt others, or using this thread topic to hurt others? So no, I'm not worried, Phillip seems to me to be a smart, kind man, I'm sure he isn't out to hurt but to help. Phillip asked 'but I wanted to see how others would respond' well that was my response. As you said, it's a discussion. That's what people do, put their opinion out there, and not everyone agrees. It's okay. We don't have too.
I get very clearly what is being said, I haven't missed the point, I just have a slightly different point. Again, it's okay. Not an attack on anyone, just my opinion.
Scripture is a very good way to know Gods nature, as is His Holy Spirit, that lives inside us. A lot can be learnt from being 'with' Him, being in His presence, in His love. I have learnt the most of His nature from my relationship with our Father. He teaches and I learn, and the biggest most important thing I have learnt is of His love, compassion and forgiveness. It has brought me to my knees, a few times I have sobbed like a big ole baby, because His love overwhelms me.
His nature is LOVE. That knows no limitations or boundaries.

My apologies, I must've jumped the gun a little. X3
As per the question I presented, I intended for the word "you" to be more general, and not aimed specifically at you, Mel. The more I think about it, though, salvation is not about understanding who God is perfectly from the start, else there'd be little room for a relationship to grow. However, there is a baseline of understanding that's necessary. Jesus claimed to be more than a prophet, and also to not simply be just the Son of God, but rather his claim to sonship was a claim to be God. (Plus, he said some interesting things when he dealt with temptation in the desert.)

The matter of where the line is drawn is determined by God, and insight as to where he draws the line is demonstrated in scripture. Which is why some of the members brought up scripture in the discussion.

Anyway, I'm sorry for (ironically) jumping to conclusions, in an attempt to try to prevent you from jumping to conclusions.

[RickD]

As long as one trusts Jesus for salvation, then one is saved? It doesn't matter which Jesus?

Can one trust in the Mormon Jesus, who is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world? In Mormonism, Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and of you and me.
http://carm.org/hinckley-says-mormons-b ... rent-jesus


Or maybe we can trust the Jesus of the Watchtower Society(Jehovah's Witness)?

Jesus Christ

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven.[86] He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God",[87] but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity. Jesus is said to have been used by God in the creation of all other things.[88] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Archangel, Michael, "the Word" of John 1:1, and wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 refer to Jesus in his pre-human existence and that he resumed these identities after his ascension to heaven following his death and resurrection. They also identify him with the "rider of the white horse" at Revelation 6 and 19.[89] His birth on earth was accomplished when he willingly allowed himself to be transferred, by God, from heaven to the womb of the virgin, Mary.[90] While on earth, Jesus was executed as a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, becoming the "eternal father" to the human family.[91]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27 ... es_beliefs

I think we all know the correct answer to this.

It may be the case that someone just doesn't understand fully who Jesus really is. I don't think anyone is saying that one has to understand the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved either.

If we see someone believing in a different Jesus, we need to show him who the real Jesus is. And we need to show why only by trusting in Him for salvation, may we be saved.

Like I said, someone may not fully understand who Jesus is, or what the Trinity says. But, there's a difference between not fully understanding, as a baby Christian, and denying that Jesus Christ is God.

[Philip]

If one believes in Jesus as only being the Son of God, and not as God, then, positionally, how can you distinguish between them and what millions in the Jesus-acknowledging, non-Christian cults believe? Because if you are going to assert that the one whom believes in a Son Whom is not also God is saved but just lacking in proper knowledge - well, I really don't see any difference. Except, perhaps, the duration of time one holds such a belief after learning that Scripture teaches the Word became flesh. IF there is a difference, then only God can know and respect such a nuance. But the problem is, studying Scripture, we have no ability to authoritatively say this. And so, if we are concerned that such a person may not be saved (and I say we should be), I would say we should act and react as if we think they are not. Now, I don't think this means you assert to the person in question that they still are not saved, but you should try to bring them to the truth of the matter, in the hope that they might embrace and believe it.

[B. W.]

Well, Phil...

The Holy Spirit will reveal to her the truth. Recall that Peter recognized who Jesus is and who revealed this to Peter. A true believer has the Holy Spirit and they will, in time have the truth about Christ revealed. Often the Lord will even use folks like yourself to help with this, or himself through a direct revelation. If no revelation comes, then she has not believed in the heart to righteousness as Romans 10:8-13 states, and she is not saved. If that is the case, you still have a task to do.

Often, a person can intellectually believe as one would apply a formula to make hairspray but that kind of believing is not saving faith. So, I would ask her questions and see what she knows of the cross and go from there. Use the OT scriptures that show that only God can save, and no other can. Which leads her to ponder who Jesus is and the Holy Spirit will work the rest out with her. Too often it is we who do not really trust the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life and rarely rely on him to his task. Let him do his work, and our hands off is a difficult lesson to learn.

There are those baby steps we all take and she maybe in that mode as well. Again, toss the keys to the car to Jesus, climb in the trunk and let him do the driving. Seek his direction, wisdom and knowledge on what part you play and do it and after you are done, get back in the trunk.

The answer about all those other cults/religions you mentioned is found in the above answer as well: A true believer has the Holy Spirit and they will, in time have the truth about Christ revealed. Often the Lord will even use folks like ourselves to help with this, or himself through a direct revelation. If no such revelation comes, then people like this have not believed in the heart to righteousness as Romans 10:8-13 states, and are not saved no matter the bikes they ride or doors they knock on.
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[Philip]

If no revelation comes, then she has not believed in the heart to righteousness as Romans 10:8-13 states, and she is not saved. If that is the case, you still have a task to do.

And so therein is the question - meaning one cannot assume either way. B.W., what you are asserting is that one can be saved BEFORE understanding Jesus to be God, but that they will definitely understand this at some point before death. I'm not so sure about this BEFORE thing, as I believe one must believe Jesus is God before GOD considers them saved. Now, does not the Lord know what everyone's fate is - and that He has ALWAYS known it? Of course! So, and as you mentioned, our response should be to react as if we don't KNOW them to be saved - because WE don't and can't.