Philip wrote:If no revelation comes, then she has not believed in the heart to righteousness as Romans 10:8-13 states, and she is not saved. If that is the case, you still have a task to do.
And so therein is the question - meaning one cannot assume either way. B.W., what you are asserting is that one can be saved BEFORE understanding Jesus to be God, but that they will definitely understand this at some point before death. I'm not so sure about this BEFORE thing, as I believe one must believe Jesus is God before GOD considers them saved. Now, does not the Lord know what everyone's fate is - and that He has ALWAYS known it? Of course! So, and as you mentioned, our response should be to react as if we don't KNOW them to be saved - because WE don't and can't.
I am not sure what happened but my response to this vanished... I thought it was posted a day ago but maybe the old geezer in me selected the preview button instead of submit.
So I'll try again:
What I am trying to say, is this: Trust the Holy Spirit to testify of Jesus. Face it, the concept of the Trinity is a great mystery and often people come to Christ and believe in him but do not comprehend the Trinity. If one is truly saved in this manner, the Holy Spirit will in time reveal either through direct revelation such as by reading a verse like - Titus 2:13 - and realize who Jesus is, or the Holy Spirit will use others to teach them in various ways. The Holy Spirit will testify who Jesus is to them. So the question actually comes to this Phil - Do you trust the Holy Spirit to reveal who Jesus is or do you think he is too weak and inept to do this however he so wills?
Back to your relative Phil, if she really believed in Jesus, then she will come to the conclusion mentioned in Titus 2:13. If not, and she resists this with venom, then, she is not saved at all. So, try to share with her a verse such as Titus 2:13 and see what she says and responds. After all, the bible mentions for us to test all things. I do trust the Holy Spirit to reveal / testify who Jesus is to those truly born again either right away or a bit later as it is inevitable for this to happen and that is what I was saying.
All things work together for good for those who love the Lord so the miss-posting the first time a day ago now comes clear why - for those who have difficulty understanding who Jesus is and why the Trinity please read the following below:
What does Titus 2:13 say too you about Jesus: "
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus," NASB
There are various websites that use analogies to help one understand the Godhead. One such illustration is of a lake during a late cold fall day. The Lake has water, Ice, and also has vapor rising from it. The ice and vapor are the same substance as water, yet, each is different in duties. The Water provides life and can change landscapes, the Ice can crack open the hardest and biggest of stones, carve out valleys, and the vapor provides rain to maintain life around the lake. All three are one essence, water, but each has differing duties (persons if you will).
Likewise the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same essence (the Godhead - Rom 1:20, Col 2:9). God is Spirit, so God's spiritual essence is of three co-equal, co-eternal, persons each who has duties within the Godhead. This is how God revealed himself in the old testament and can remain true to his own words in the absolute sense that there are
none like him. Think of Jesus as the Vapor, giving life to the world and the Holy Spirit cracking the hardest of hearts towards God and that might help you gain insight who Jesus is in the Oneness of the essence of the Godhead Trinity.
Both the Son and Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and are revealed in the OT that way too. Jesus the Word became flesh (John 1:1.2,3,14) known also as the expression of the living wisdom of God and the Holy Spirit who is the living expression of the power and establishing work of God's will. The Father is the source. The three agree as one and are one and like that lake example exists in the oneness of three. In nature, we see this oneness of three all around us - Rom 1:20 (an egg has a shell, white, and the yoke yet the three make the egg one - a tree has bark, sap, and leaves - three as one)
Now please read the following to help further clarify: "
Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9 NASB
See also Isaiah 46:5, Deut 33:26 - therefore God's oneness is unlike our concept of oneness in order for there to be truly
no one like him...
Isaiah 45:18 makes it clear that God is speaking in the following verses:
Isaiah 45:21-22, "
Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." NASB
Please note there is no other savior other than God and Titus 2:13 says what?
Isa 45:23-25, "
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength (power).' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. 25 "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory." NASB
Jesus is known as the Word become flesh in John 1:1, 2, 3, 14c and notice the verses above again and what do you see?
John 1:12,13 and Philippians 2:6-11 may help.
Please note what 1 Co 1:30 says and Philippians 1:11 mentions and compare this to verse 24 from Isaiah quoted above. What do you see? and add to this Acts 1:8 concerning power/strength... what do you see?
The doctrine of the Trinity is not from man as no man could envision God's oneness in this manner and came about as a means to keep the - no one like God - pure in a manner that helps simplfy identifying error from truth about God's nature (essence). Hope this helps...
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